Holset Turbos, PART 7

[dsm-onster]

where was mr. rice when I was on the forums. He posted after I was out for a few weeks.

Anyway. To question a turbo based on the supposed basis that a diesel turbo "designed for high displacement" is not as effective as a gas turbo "designed for gas small displacement" is in itself a farce to see typed; and shows the knowledge you truely posess on the subject. Prove to us why a high displacement diesel motor first flows more air than a typical 4 cylinder gasser. THEN, lets get into the arguement of efficiency. And finally what bolton turbo has the highest HP record? ??? that is NOT a rhetorical question.

. . . Do you realize that an gt35r and 20g and 50-trim and fpred compressor/turbine/housings ALL are diesel turbos. Some overly brash, perhaps intoxicated for the holiday's, and rather dimwitted responses only have one true response:

I have 4 t25s for anyone who thinks they are that reliable. At stock boost they function just as well as any other turbo, mhi has the reliability card for sure. But 500K on a turbo and then banging it down the track at 11.3 is reliabile enough for me, and holsets do this all to frequently to vomit on the keyboard otherwise.

No one is looking for a magical turbo. We're just wondering what the magic is behind a $1700 turbo that has no better results.

 

[Slippi84]

I am a diesel mechanic for the public transportation company that supplys buses trains trolleys ect. to the South Eastern part of Pennselvania better known as SEPTA. Our older engines in our Nabi busses which my company purchased in 96 all came with Detroit engines and Garret turbos(gt4294 to be exact) and were run on 6.3l engines. Those buses by the state and our comnpany(as our company is state and nationaly funded) deemed these buses to be outdates and so we updated to New FLyer buses who come with Cummings ISL engines which run Hx40's in a 5.7l engine. Our branch at Wyoming and 3rd street where we VOH the buses(Vehicle-Over-haul) has a engine dyno room where EVERY engine is tested to make sure it runs properly and produces the correct amount of HP. The Detroit engines in the NABIs make 250hp @ 4psi while the New Cummings ISL engines make the same 250hp @ 5psi. So with a smaller engine stock untouched ECU's Cummings managed to produce the same hp with better spool and lower emissions with a much smaller turbo.

By the way these buses are used EVERY DAY for 6 years they are then VOH'd and then put back out on the road for another 6 years as mandated by the State who again funds the buses. We stock atleast 3 Garret turbos in our stock room due to their past history of going bad where as we only have 1 hx40 which by the way has dust on it from not being used in a while. I think if a company that transports people around one of the biggest citys in the US thinks holset is a better option it's good enough for my little talon.

 

[JusMX141]

Well I just sent mine to justin and he said the thrust washer and bearings were in excellent condition. He said that the thrust washer didn't even have a mark. I bought the turbo used. I ran 30psi daily and 35-38 psi a few times. So the durability is there for sure.

Holset definitely has the more reliable thrust system.


Here's Matt's HX35/40 thrust plate after unknown mileage and 30+psi (turbo was bought used and abused):

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^ ^ Two light scuffs, that's it.


...and here we have dacowgod's PTE 6031E's Garrett thrust plate after 1200 miles of use at just over 30psi:

 

[dsmmatt28]

I was told that the turbo came off a dodge truck that was used for tractor pulling. The turbo did see 40+ psi by the original owner. I have put around 3k on it. The original owner said he put 15-20k on it.

 

[V8killerturbo4]

Damn that PTE is screwed, Ill never own another PTE for sure. Im sure it was my restrictor I made for ya DSMMATT

 

[darkhorizon]

If anyone can show me where I can get a turbo that is good for 200k+ miles worth of use, has reliable VGT exhaust technology, and a compressor that supports 700hp, for less than $50, please let me know.

It cant be a holset (because obviously they suck)

 

[Slippi84]

If anyone can show me where I can get a turbo that is good for 200k+ miles worth of use, has reliable VGT exhaust technology, and a compressor that supports 700hp, for less than $50, please let me know.

It cant be a holset (because obviously they suck)

I know you were joking but still $50 bucs is still crazy cheap even for a holset. Even with that said though I think they get the point

 

[dan2288]

Damn that PTE is screwed, Ill never own another PTE for sure. Im sure it was my restrictor I made for ya DSMMATT

you mind sharing some info on the restrictor you made?

 

[Morphius]

Damn that PTE is screwed, Ill never own another PTE for sure. Im sure it was my restrictor I made for ya DSMMATT

It's hard to make that judgement, when there may very well be more unknowns behind the failure. Did it have adequate lube? Too much? What were the requirements for that particular turbo for oil pressure and the drain? Was it met? Did the engine have debris in it that found it's way to the turbo? There are thousands of those running around the country with no issues. With tens of thousands of miles on them. It's merely AN example of a failure for one particular person. It doesn't mean PTE builds junk.

I just don't want to turn this into a "Let's call every other turbo brand junk" thread. It'll only be a continued repeat of the past several pages, which isn't cool.

Sure there may be some blanket statements that have been made about the performance that may not be fully validated. As we can all see, as time goes on, the more people that use them, the more info is gathered and they are being better characterized. If someone disagrees, then so be it. Embrace it openly and let's gather the information to prove or disprove the point. Not sit and argue over what we don't know or think we might know.

 

[AutoMods]

We've been selling PTE, Garrett and Turbonetics for several years. All of them basically have a warranty for one year. Failure rates are very low for all the brands, maybe around 1% I would guess. So basically for every 100 turbos I sell, 1 or 2 people may call us about a problem. If its in the one year warranty period, the customer will let me know about it so they can obviously get it repaired. Now after one year, I may not hear about it but I'm pretty confident that most are decent for several years.

Then there is always user error, I've had more then one customer install a new turbo after an engine rebuild and metal fragments ended up going through the turbo and wrecking it.

On another case Turbonetics replaced 2 turbos for my customer with their "no questions asked warranty" in two weeks so he was on his 3rd turbo before he figured out and admitted that his banjo bolt was not designed to work with banjo fitting he was using and the oil wasn't passing through the connection on his oil feed so the turbo was basically get very little to no oil.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well, my only gripe is really, "this is a diesel turbo it don't work on no gas motor." The reliability garbage is silly and not even worth a response. One is reaching for straws to convince others that these turbos are unreliable. . .

That leads me to the real gripe. Why so much "hate". Why try so hard as to reach for straws. Who really needs to intervene and 'save the world from holsets'? Why are so many so, literally, angry because someone chose to run a holset turbo and recommends them as an affordable alternative in situations that they have been proven to work well in? Why are there some that are so intensely distraught over seeing this turbo brand see success which consequently has people recommend them as a viable option? . . .

I do hope this one aspect of the subject of this thread becomes constructive. If theres a doubt or question; yes, ask it. If you feel the need to divulge a blanket statement, like uncle bens, then give some actual reasoning behind it. Give a reason to merrit a productive interchange. As it stands, the guy who started this banter doesn't really care whether or not there's proof to the contrary, nor cares whether his conclusions are founded on basis in the physical and actual world. . . Remember middle school? "nikes brand is better than reboks and gives more ups. Looky who wears them. Wa, wa, wa, no one with reboks makes good 40m dashes or takes it to the rim more." Meanwhile, many do better than with either using bare feet. . . Leave brand wars to the brands. Give a real reason for your choice and be willing to comprehend another choice for another person.

This goes for any subject started in these forums. Those who chose to question, please do. There's nothing more beneficial to education here than open interchange. But do more than just blast off a random opinion in the topic. Bring WHY you think that. Who jumps in a snake pit without a venom antidote in hand? What's your reasoning? It could be VERY good reasoning and thus constructive interchange. We SHOULD all be adults here.

. . .Ok back to holsets and not the psyche behind it. . . either more questions on the diesel/gasser turbo subject, results, fitment, options, or cost. . . I'll reopen the true discussion with this: My 2.0L motor displaces as much over time peak and at required spool up as the diesel 5.9 from which my first holset turbo was removed. And I'll add that diesel gases have less energy to convert to compressor wheel rotation. . . Or you guys can ask all the other questions related. Just showing that I'm willing to help uncle bens understand why the hx40 has done 10s on more than one dsm and nearly 700whp, all while in the .55 a/r bep housing.

 

[Gooberlog]

Really the only down sides i have seen with these, if you would call them that, are you have to determine and provide proper oiling and oil draining, you have to source your parts from different places, and probably the main deterrent for most is that you have to do some fab work in some case for reason #1. A lot of people just want to bolt on parts, so this sends some people packing.

 

[V8killerturbo4]

It's hard to make that judgement, when there may very well be more unknowns behind the failure. Did it have adequate lube? Too much? What were the requirements for that particular turbo for oil pressure and the drain? Was it met? Did the engine have debris in it that found it's way to the turbo? There are thousands of those running around the country with no issues. With tens of thousands of miles on them. It's merely AN example of a failure for one particular person. It doesn't mean PTE builds junk.

I just don't want to turn this into a "Let's call every other turbo brand junk" thread. It'll only be a continued repeat of the past several pages, which isn't cool.

Sure there may be some blanket statements that have been made about the performance that may not be fully validated. As we can all see, as time goes on, the more people that use them, the more info is gathered and they are being better characterized. If someone disagrees, then so be it. Embrace it openly and let's gather the information to prove or disprove the point. Not sit and argue over what we don't know or think we might know.

I didn't call PTE junk, Read my statement again. Im not trying to cause a problem, I just said I'd never own one again. Who cares? I'm a bad guy now because I said I'd never own another PTE...WOW. I've owned two different PTE's myself, they didn't work for me. PTE's had known thrust bearing issues, maybe they're fixed now I have no clue. I don't keep up with that. I Agree, who knows what killed that turbo.

you mind sharing some info on the restrictor you made?

Bought the standard oil feed restrictor that fits the Holset from extreme. Welded one end up and drilled a 5/64" hole thru it. I believe they're are a couple different sizes that work, this is what we used. I have 10k miles on mine at 30-35psi. Spool hits about 3900. I use FP's T3/T4 Drain they sell. I should also say that I run a -4 oil line straight from my OFH. I do not have balance shafts. Oil Pressure at the OFH at idle (1k rpm) is 20psi, redline (7500) hits right at 95 psi. I chose not to port my OFH, but to cut off 1 coil on the relief spring, work's perfectly.

Well, my only gripe is really, "this is a diesel turbo it don't work on no gas motor." The reliability garbage is silly and not even worth a response. One is reaching for straws to convince others that these turbos are unreliable. . .

That leads me to the real gripe. Why so much "hate". Why try so hard as to reach for straws. Who really needs to intervene and 'save the world from holsets'? Why are so many so, literally, angry because someone chose to run a holset turbo and recommends them as an affordable alternative in situations that they have been proven to work well in? Why are there some that are so intensely distraught over seeing this turbo brand see success which consequently has people recommend them as a viable option? . . .

I do hope this one aspect of the subject of this thread becomes constructive. If theres a doubt or question; yes, ask it. If you feel the need to divulge a blanket statement, like uncle bens, then give some actual reasoning behind it. Give a reason to merrit a productive interchange. As it stands, the guy who started this banter doesn't really care whether or not there's proof to the contrary, nor cares whether his conclusions are founded on basis in the physical and actual world. . . Remember middle school? "nikes brand is better than reboks and gives more ups. Looky who wears them. Wa, wa, wa, no one with reboks makes good 40m dashes or takes it to the rim more." Meanwhile, many do better than with either using bare feet. . . Leave brand wars to the brands. Give a real reason for your choice and be willing to comprehend another choice for another person.

This goes for any subject started in these forums. Those who chose to question, please do. There's nothing more beneficial to education here than open interchange. But do more than just blast off a random opinion in the topic. Bring WHY you think that. Who jumps in a snake pit without a venom antidote in hand? What's your reasoning? It could be VERY good reasoning and thus constructive interchange. We SHOULD all be adults here.

. . .Ok back to holsets and not the psyche behind it. . . either more questions on the diesel/gasser turbo subject, results, fitment, options, or cost. . . I'll reopen the true discussion with this: My 2.0L motor displaces as much over time peak and at required spool up as the diesel 5.9 from which my first holset turbo was removed. And I'll add that diesel gases have less energy to convert to compressor wheel rotation. . . Or you guys can ask all the other questions related. Just showing that I'm willing to help uncle bens understand why the hx40 has done 10s on more than one dsm and nearly 700whp, all while in the .55 a/r bep housing.

I Agree, Dsm's didn't get to where they're at without a little home grown ingenuity. Look back when we first started modding these cars. For me it's been 15 years. Holset's fit right in, They're are many great turbo options for our cars. I was on a budget and picked up a Holset to try out, Luckily it turned into one of my favorite turbo's I've ever ran.

 

[abaum565]

I have been running my 35 on the street for a while and just picked up a hx40 pro 6 blade. I am in the process of some changes to the car, one being the larger turbo and divided t3 setup. With the divided setup and nice compressor flow, I just need some good spoolup for the larger turbine wheel. After doing much reading about diesel guys machining the hx35 smaller turbine housing to fit the 40, I think that is the path I am going to try. I think the "smaller" housing will help improve spool up compared to the smallest t3 housing native to the hx40.

I have a 12cm^2 35 TB and I have the hx40pro. I just need some more concrete info on the machining part. I have access to people that can help me with the machining part, though they know nothing about turbos, etc. So I need to gather some info on how much larger the housing needs to be than the wheels, etc.

Any help from those that have done or want to do would help. Thanks

 

[jm1080]

Just a question comparing these two turbos, I have a ported evo16g right now running 20psi and getting 33-34lbs of airflow. Now I keep hearing you can make so much power with the hx35, but have also heard that at the same psi level the hx35 will actually flow a bit less, with later spool time. Now the evo16g's efficiency range is around 25psi. I even heard that at 25psi hx35 still flows less or about the same.

Now I wanted to run a 50trim type turbo at 30psi max. I hear hx35 is like 50trim with faster spool, but I just do not see it with the results from other members and their stories. Just want to clear this out and find out the truth as I don't see why upgrade when an evo16g can do the same. Any input?

 

[abaum565]

Having run both of those, I have noticed the exact same thing. But one thing I notice is after 25psi the holset wakes up far more than the 16g did for me. It feels like a different turbo from 25psi (fun and all) to 32ish psi (Holy SH*T hold on fun). And that's on the 8 blade lesser flowing version. I don't regret switching from the 16g to the holset at all!

 

[jm1080]

Yea that is exactly what I hear! See I do not plan on running more than 25psi for now, maybe 27psi on pump 93. But if it is almost exactly the same even the pull, why the upgrade? It seems a 50 trim would be better suited as the holset doesn't even get into range until 30psi. So I wonder how the hx40 is?!

Also I'm assuming the pull is the same comparing both at 25psi? It so strange as the hx35 is a beast compared to 16g! I would expect it to be a hell of alot stronger at 25psi

 

[abaum565]

I think they are very similar to a point. But after that it's in favor of the holset. I have seen logs of the 7 blade version flow 57lbs/min at around 30psi. With spool around 3600-3700K. But in your case it may not warrant an upgrade, that's up to you.

And with so many different comp wheels and turbine wheels and housings on the 40 it's hard give exact comparisons as there are so many options right off the bat.

 

[dsm-onster]

As proven, all 16g turbos (small big evo3) flow about the same at the same psi, the difference being how far they are pushed at their respective boost. . .

As posted in one of the previous holset threads, the bolton h1c/hx35 that I used flowed 2lb/min more at 2psi less boost than my 16g turbo. The boost of the h1c was 20psi. The hx35 has a slightly better wheel employing better aero tech. Spool was practically identical to directly swapped small 16g. No other changes were made. The 16g was at 22psi showing 36lb/min peak. So it was NOT maxed out. Yet, the bolton h1c was flowing 2lb/min more at only 5400rpms. A much better torque curve was clearly apparent in the flow numbers alone.

Where did you hear that the hx35 flows less than the 16g at 20psi? The bolton housing has about a 15% larger critical area than the 16g exhaust housing volute. And it also has a greatly more efficient centerd (tear drop) nozzle which assists flow significantly (see the pte .63 a/r housing vs. the garret .63 a/r housing). Also the hx35 turbine wheel is a bit larger than a t31 (t3 stage 3 turbine wheel). While the 16g turbine wheel is the same piece used on the stock 14b.

I can stand up and say backed with logs that the bolton hx35 or h1c flows substancially more at even 20psi than the 16g.

The hx40 has only 3 compressor wheel options. And 2 turbine wheel options, the lower flowing one of which is so rare that I doubt anyone here has ever seen it in a picture, much less in person. And none here have ever run one on their setup.

 

[jm1080]

dsm-onster, one member on a previous holset thread stated that the hx35 8 blade flowed a tad bit less at same psi level as 16g with a later spool time, I've seen a couple logs as well, where they flowed the same at 20-25psi. Is the pull atleast harder at that same psi level? I've been in a fp green at 27psi and the pull is real extremely hard compared to 16g and my 16g at 22psi seems quite boring I might say, but it is faster than T25

Also do you have logs of these hx35 in BEP housing that you can post? That is what I plan on buying, I would like to compare with my logs as well. See, I just want something that isn't just a tiny bit of a step up in regards to pull. I want to be pushed back like I was in the FP green I rode in. But then again the spool of an fp green is real slow

 

[dsm-onster]

The logs are in the 5th or 6th holset thread. . . I can't remember. I guess I could look. I have screen shots and everything of my impression posted. . . It's all there.

 

[rampridersrider]

Just a question comparing these two turbos, I have a ported evo16g right now running 20psi and getting 33-34lbs of airflow. Now I keep hearing you can make so much power with the hx35, but have also heard that at the same psi level the hx35 will actually flow a bit less, with later spool time. Now the evo16g's efficiency range is around 25psi. I even heard that at 25psi hx35 still flows less or about the same.

Now I wanted to run a 50trim type turbo at 30psi max. I hear hx35 is like 50trim with faster spool, but I just do not see it with the results from other members and their stories. Just want to clear this out and find out the truth as I don't see why upgrade when an evo16g can do the same. Any input?

My 7 blade HX35 with a DNP knock off T3 open manifold, stock T3 12 cm housing, stock 6 bolt long block and intake manifold, stock cams, ebay intercooler, etc etc etc. At 20 psi I was hitting full boost at 4k rpm and flowing 40 lbs/min on a calibrated maf. When I added cams I picked up 2 lbs/min at only 20 psi, and at 30 psi I'm doing 54 lbs/min.

I'm going to upgrade to a 6 blade HX40 wheel/compressor and GM Maft to pick up some lbs/min. I'm still trying to figure out what kinda power/spool could be had going to a twin scroll manifold will give. I'm thinking that the ebay manifold is a big restriction right now and the new manifold will pick up some big numbers.

 

[GST95]

The hx40 has only 3 compressor wheel options. And 2 turbine wheel options, the lower flowing one of which is so rare that I doubt anyone here has ever seen it in a picture, much less in person. And none here have ever run one on their setup.

There are 4 compressor wheels. 8 blade, 7 blade, 56mm 6 blade and 60mm 6 blade. Also, i have both turbines, but the 10 blade i have is trashed so i couldnt use it anyways.

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[Slippi84]

Like they said these turbos aren't magic and have to be compared to something in the ball park of the holset turbo your ttrying to gauge. You wouldn't compare a gt42r to 16g @ 20psi on pump gas. Its just doesn't make sense because the two turbos were designed with differrent psi and hp levels in mind. Same thing with the 16g and a hx35. The only reason people bring them up is because of similar spool when a hx35 really is more like a 50 trim if anything.

 

[JusMX141]

...and 2 turbine wheel options, the lower flowing one of which is so rare that I doubt anyone here has ever seen it in a picture, much less in person. And none here have ever run one on their setup.

I actually rebuilt one for a customer a while back; newer turbo for sure, 7-blade billet 60mm compressor, 10-blade turbine. Fit into the same BEP housing as the 12-blade turbine (I test-fitted it to mine).

Wish I could remember who the hell it belonged to.

The 10-blade turbine looked like it would actually flow more to me; like a copy of the GT35R turbine, only with wider blades. This thing would benefit from a clip job.

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