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Holset Turbos, PART 4

Posted by Morphius, Aug 7, 2008

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  1. Morphius

    Morphius DSM Wiseman

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    M-Town, Michigan
    Continue on..........


    For more discussion history:
    Link to Part 1 :
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145691]Holset Turbos - DSM Forums

    Link to Part 2:
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192083]Holset Turbos, PART 2 - DSM Forums

    Link to Part 3:
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/274459-holset-turbos-part-3-a.html

    Link to Part 4:
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/303969-holset-turbos-part-4-a.html

    Link to Part 5:
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/314629-holset-turbos-part-5-a.html

    Link to Part 6:
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/327647-holset-turbos-part-6-a.html

    Link to Part 7:
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/353498-holset-turbos-part-7-a.html

    Link to Part 8:
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/371627-holset-turbos-part-8-a.html

    Link to Part 9:
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/436168-holset-turbos-part-9-a.html


    For Holset FAQ: (growing document and not finished)
    Link to FAQ:
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/362444-holset-turbos-faq.html


    For in vehicle results:
    Link to Results Only:
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...-results-only-complete-installed-systems.html

    Link to HX-52 setup;
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/307988-holset-volvo-hx-52-dyno-sheets.html


    For more specific component discussion:
    Link to Holset Part #'s:
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/312186-holset-part-thread-only.html

    Link to Holset oil feed discussion:
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/244467-holset-hx-35-oiling.html
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...turbo-users-your-oil-drain-may-too-small.html

    Link to Fake Holset Info:
    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/306635-counterfeit-holset-turbos.html


    Summary provided by wiseman, Dsm-onster:
    HX35:

    The 8blade hx35 has a 56mm compressor inducer. This is found on 1995-1998 cummins manual pickups. The compressor flows 52 lb/min according to the compressor map. The bolton BEP housing (0.55 a/r) is enough to push the limit of the compressor. There's several 500whp 8blade hx35 cars out there with the bolt on housing. It reaches 20+psi by 3500rpms in 3rd with 272 cams. Smaller cams would equal a faster spool speed in most cases.

    The 7blade hx35 has a 56mm compressor inducer. This is found on the 1999-2002 cummins manual pickups. The compressor flows 60lb/min according to the compressor map and logged results from a member here. The bolton BEP housing with the hx35 turbine wheel do not SEAM to have enough flow to really reach the potential of 60lb/min. But many have logged over 50lb/min so far and seen 500whp. The stock hx35 12cm^2 twinscroll turbine housing is a t3 flange housing. This mated to a NON-divided runner manifold has produced a 132mph trap speed with a full weight 1g AWD. This is about 600whp. So the flow is there with the stock housing if you use a non-divided manifold. The spool speed of the 7blade hx35 is similar to the 8blade hx35 with 20+ psi by 3500rpms in the bolton housing and by 4000rpms with the stock housing with a non-divided manifold.

    HY35:

    The hy35 has a smaller turbine wheel than the hx35. And, it has a turbine housing connection that does not allow for a bolton housing to be used. It does not have a divided housing so any t3 manifold can be used effectively with this turbo. It has the same compressor as the 7blade hx35. We don't know if te hy35 turbine wheel and housing is enough to reache the 60lb/min potential of the 56mm 7blade compressor. Some one try it out already!!! :) It should at least be a faster spooling viable option to the full t3/t4 50-trim.

    H1C/WH1C:

    In 1994, there was the Wh1c which has pretty much the identical compressor as the hx35 but with a Vband compressor cover. The turbine wheel is the same. It will bolt into the BEP bolton hx35 turbine housing. It has 4 bolts at the housing instead of 6. So you will need to buy 2 more bolts and use 6 washers cut to make a flat side. Honestly, I just used bolts that were cut a little short and the bolt head was wide enough to pull the chra to the turbine housing. No sealing issues. Since the Wh1c is for all practical purposes an 8blade hx35 the spool and flow is the same too.

    I have the big h1c. It comes on the INTERCOOLED 1991-1993 cummins pickups. It has the webbing for MWE but no groove cut like the hx35/wh1c has. This turbo I term the big h1c because it has a 54mm compressor inducer and same exducer than the 8blade hx35/Wh1c. The other h1c is the small h1c found on the NON-intercooled cummins pickups. This has a 50mm inducer but only 7blades and has no webbing for MWE. Less blades helps flow, but so does a larger inducer diameter. The most whp ever recorded on a gas 4cylinder with the small h1c was done on a KA24 nissan: 411whp. Since the big h1c has a 4mm larger inducer and the same turbine wheel as the hx35, it is safe to say that it flows enough for between 411whp and 500whp. The diesel sources state that it flows SLIGHTLY less than the early hx35. So 4lb/min less than the 8blade hx35 puts the flow of the big h1c at 48-49lb/min right where a 50-trim or 20g is. The small bep housing is all that's needed to get the most from the compressor and the spool speed is 20+psi by 3500rpms.

    HX35-40 hybrid:

    Keeping the long tradition of the marriage of sportcompact and hybrid turbos, there is the hx35 turbine and the hx40 compressor. It is strongly recommended to use the large bep turbine housing or the stock hx35 turbine housing with an non-divided t3 manifold for this turbo. The small bep housing around a t31 size hx35 turbine wheel is probably not enough to merit any of the hx40 compressor wheel upgrades. 20+ psi by 4000rpms can be seen in the hx35/40 with the hx35 12cm^2 turbine housing with a non-divided t3 manifold. With the large bep housing, spool times are to be determined. But likely similar.

    HX40:

    The 8blade hx40 has a 58mm inducer and flows about the same as a 60-1 (around 60lb/min) with ALOT better high boost efficiency and spool speed. It is the most common hx40 out there. The small bep housing with the hx40 turbine wheel is plenty to reach the full potential of the 60lb/min 8blade hx40 compressor. 20+ psi by 4100rpms with 272s.

    The 7 and 6 blade hx40 is called the super40 and has the 60mm compressor inducer. This compressor flows around 69lb/min. You can get this wheel in billet style (think HTA). The non-billet wheel spools as fast as the 8blade hx40 in the bolton bep housing and has done 653whp at 40psi per the holset results only thread. Billet should spool even faster. The t3 .70 a/r BEP housing slows spool about 400rpms. But reports show a significant gain in flow per psi. So expect more power at lower boost with that turbine housing.

    H1E/WH1E:

    The Wh1e is like it's little brother the Wh1c. It mirrors the hx40 8blade in every way except that it has a v-band compressor cover and a 4bolt chra-turbinehousing pattern. It will consequently bolt into the hx40 bep bolton turbine housing and this is plenty of flow to max out its 60lb/min compressor.

    The h1e is like it's little brother the h1c. There are different size compressors. . . BUT there are also different size turbine wheels too. Check measurements before buying this turbo if you plan on running a BEP turbine housing. There are lower flowing compressors than the 58mm 8blade that are out there. So this turbo may not flow any more than an hx35 if get the wrong one. You need at least a 58mm compressor inducer for this to be a worthwhile turbo vs the proven hx35 or 8blade hx40.

    HX52:

    This is a big sucker. It is commonly found on the Volvo Semis and usually has a billet compressor wheel. It flows 88lb/min. There is no bolt on housing for it. If you want a bolton housing for this turbo, then you don't want this turbo. In fact if you want a t3 flange turbine housing for this turbo, then you don't want this turbo. You DO want this turbo if you're looking at a gt4294r or gt4202r. The turbine inlet is slightly different than a t4 bolt pattern. You can still get the t4 manifold to work just fine by enlarging the bolt holes.

    Misc.:

    • Holset's don't spool slow. They spool faster than their garrett or mitsubishi counterparts. Diesel exhaust is cold and slow moving.
    • The holset turbine wheel is a work of art. It has been shown to flow very well in a very small turbine housing. For example the hx40 turbine wheel in the small .55 ar bep bolton housing flows as much as a garrett gt35r turbine wheel in a larger .63 ar garrett t3 turbine housing. The hx40 with this configuration spools about 500rpms faster! You can upgrade to the .70 a/r BEP t3 turbine housing and have the same or slightly faster spool speed as the above gt35r with ALOT more flow per psi and consequently more horsepower per psi. This makes for VERY good pumpgas numbers.
    • Holset patented map width enhancement. They do not have extended tip technology, but there compressors show more efficiency than their garrett or mitsubishi counterpart.
    • They have superback technology witch leads to VERY, VERY durable compressors. The are designed to be overworked and underpaid.
    • There are discrepancies all over the web concerning the compressor maps. Take what you hear/read with a grain of salt and a shot of tequila, and the worm.
    • The holset is fine with stock 4g63 oil pressure from the oil filter housing. If you have no b shafts, you'll need a restrictor. The drain line is a garret bolt pattern. The feed line is different for different turbos.



    Summary of compressor/turbine combinations provided by mod/wiseman, JusMX141:

    HX35 Compressors:
    50mm / 78mm 7-blade
    52mm / 78mm 7-blade
    54mm / 78mm 7-blade
    54mm / 83mm 8-blade
    56mm / 83mm 8-blade

    Turbine: 70mm / 60mm


    HX40:Compressors:

    56mm / 86mm 6-blade (cast & billet)
    60mm / 86mm 6-blade (cast & billet)
    60mm / 86mm 7-blade (cast & billet)
    58mm / 83mm 8-blade (cast & billet)
    60mm / 83mm 8-blade

    Turbine: 76mm / 64mm
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2012
  2. danyz250f

    danyz250f Proven Member

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    holy crap another thread. You would think there would be nothing left to talk about.
     
  3. Slippi84

    Slippi84 Proven Member

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    Hell we're just getting to the good stuff teh results and dyno times. A lot of people are finishing up nice builds with big plans. Once I get my fuel system and exhaust worked out I will hopefully be one of them too.:thumb:
     

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  4. JWoodley

    JWoodley Proven Member

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    I've been on that same waiting list for months now. LOL
     

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  5. biglady112

    biglady112 Proven Member

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    I am now part of the holset family.

    I just picked up a large frame HX-52.

    2007-06-26086-5.jpg

    2007-06-26085-5.jpg

    2007-06-26084-5.jpg
     
  6. Slippi84

    Slippi84 Proven Member

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    For being a hx52 it doesn't look that big I mean my hx40 in 18cm housing and holset 4" in 3" out housing looked bigger:confused:
     

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  7. biglady112

    biglady112 Proven Member

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    This is the regular HX-52. Not the pro. The one that actually comes off the volvo box truck/semi.

    And I assure you it is larger than a HX-40. The inlet OD is 4.3 inches and the outlet OD is 3.3 inches. So it is similar to a T04H cover. Just a tad different. At it narrowist point it is 9 1/2 inches. At its widest point it is 11 3/4 inches. The two turbos we have run on the race car A GT4202 and a BWS374 both are 9 1/2 inches by 13 inches. So as you see, it is nearly as big as a GT42.

    Not to mention this has a 16cm^2 T6 exhaust housing. It is very similar to a 1.15a/r garrett T6 housing.

    Also has a 67mm inducer.

    Steven
     
  8. dsm-onster

    dsm-onster DSM Wiseman

    8,218
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    Joined Jul 11, 2004
    Bloxom, Virginia
    Holy turbine wheel! Glad to see biglady on board! Can not wait for the results with the hx52. No one has posted any results for that turbo at all. So far several hx40s and hx35s, one hx35 with the original housing (TimG), one h1c (me), and now this big beast. I think Jeremiah (Maglin) had one of these sitting around for his build. . .

    Well, I pulled my engine out and apart yesterday and today. All my bearings look like this WTF. This is why I live off of ramen:

    bearing_damage.jpg

    I sprung a leak at my oil pan. I lost 3.5 quarts of oil in one run before the oil pressure gauge started to drop. And the low oil burned up a ring at number 2 before it ate the crank. That's why I opened her up: to check why I had low compression at number 2. At least I caught it before the crank was scored. There was no noisy rods or anything.

    I hope to be back on the road I about 2 weeks, since I'll just be using 100% stock parts (half groove bearings, composite headgasket, stock size rod bearings, and iron rings). I'll be putting in another spare block and head, since I'm a dsm packrat and have 2 of everything. This original block with 215000 miles has seen better days, the walls are close to out of spec and there's a couple of spots that look like it may require a bore. And my head literally melted a little from detonation causes by that maf overrun issue I had. So another head in the shed is going on.

    I finally have a working laptop now. So I won't need to use the bumbling, cumbersome 'home pc and giant power inverter with cords everywhere' method to capture dsmlink logs LOL.
     

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  9. Slippi84

    Slippi84 Proven Member

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    DOn't get me wrong the hotside looked huge but I didn't realise the compressor cover was that big looks like a to4e cover next to that dam hotside LOL
     

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  10. JWoodley

    JWoodley Proven Member

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    I drooled over your thread on the Link forums. What cams are you going to run for your setup? Nitrous for spool?


    FYI, I did see a T3 or T4 to divided T6 manifold adapter on some Turbo Dodge websites today. I'll try to find the link.
     

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  11. biglady112

    biglady112 Proven Member

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    My micrometers only go to 2" od. I will have to run by my friends tonight to be sure. But I got curious and went out side and eyeballed it with a taped measure and some flat head screwdrivers.

    The compressor's inducer is 71mm and the exducer(was easy to measure so should be close) was 97mm.

    Just a tad larger than a GT4294. Oh boy. It seems to be even bigger than I thought. I was bummed about a 67mm compressor in a large package, but this is even better.

    Oh yea baby.

    There are two reasons for this turbo going on my car. Quality/durability and a killer price. You just don't hear of failures in the diesel world. Way more miles and abuse than I will ever put this thing through.

    Steven
     
  12. biglady112

    biglady112 Proven Member

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    Is the cam question for me?

    If so, I am not sure yet. I want the FP5R and FP11R setup like we have on our 2G. But it is $450 for the kiggly beehive springs and it cost us around $1000 at the machine shop just to get the clearencing we needed for the cams/springs/valve stem seals.

    So for now it might just be between a BC280 or FP4R. I can do the 280's on stock springs, the 4R's I am not sure the stock springs will handle them. So at this point it is still up in the air. It all comes down to money at this point.

    As far as spool. I am a huge fan of boost only, so I am going to see what she will do on her own first. Hopefully the 1.6L can make some magic for me. We make full boost on a 2.0L at 6300rpm(map sensor verified) with a similar 1.15 T6 housing. I like to keep it simple. Less things to rely on and fail.

    I have seen those adapter as well. But my friend is going to make a bracket for me for my revhard manifold. It divides the outlet and has a peice that slides all the way to the back for the wastegate port. So the whole thing will be truly divided.

    Steven
     
  13. dsm-onster

    dsm-onster DSM Wiseman

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    I keep forgeting that you're now running a 4g61 !!! wow. The results will be very interesting.
     

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  14. andy4g63

    andy4g63 Proven Member

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    That is a fair comparisson, Matt.
    We all are allways just a nice pull away from bearings like these. But that is what we live for. And BTW you ncould've gotten out a little more from these bearings, just kidding.

    Good luck with the new build and godspeed.
     

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  15. biglady112

    biglady112 Proven Member

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    Just measured the turbine.

    The inducer is 86mm and the exducer is 70mm. That is awefully close to a GT4508 turbine.

    But what I noticed is, the compressor is very very short. The wheel is not tall at all. It is only 1 3/8 of an inch tall. The turbine is 1 3/4 of an inch tall.

    So it should do well and be efficient at low boost. Which is where I am going to run it. It may not flow mega numbers after figurin this out, but I think sheer size will still make it useful for me.

    Steven
     
  16. b00stedtalon2

    b00stedtalon2 Proven Member

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    Here's another Hx52.

    IMG_1547LargeMedium.gif
     

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  17. crensinivon

    crensinivon Proven Member

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    God I can't wait to start my 2.3 stroker for crazy turbos like these. :sneaky:
     
  18. biglady112

    biglady112 Proven Member

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    Don't be afraid. Mine is going on a stock 4G61.

    Steven
     
  19. TxR6guy

    TxR6guy Proven Member

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    Maybe we can recap everything that has been said in other threads on specs and whats needed for these turbos and sum it up on this one so ppl dont have to spend 4 days digging around for what housing's and etc..just a idea.
     
  20. dsm-onster

    dsm-onster DSM Wiseman

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    Bloxom, Virginia
    Turbine housings and bolton solutions:

    Get bolton BEP housings from theturbotrader.com. There are also larger t3 style housings that seam to flow more and don't sacrifice so much spool. The hx35 and h1c both fit in the hx35 footpront. MOST h1e turbines fit in an hx40 footprint. Don't get the small h1c from the non-intercooled pickups. The small h1c doesnot have an MWE groove or the webbing for it in the compressor inlet. The big h1c does not have the MWE groove, but does have the webbing. The hx35/h1c/hy35 has a t3 bolt pattern in the inlet. The hx40/h1e has a t4 inlet boltpattern. The hy35 has a smaller turbine wheel and aturbine housing connection that does not allow for a bolton housing to be used. It does not have a divided housing so any t3 manifold can be used effectively with this turbo. Running a divided turbine housing with an undivided runner manifold will lead to quite slower spool, but considering how fast they spool doing that puts them in the same spool range as other turbos that flow the same. Non of the top performing bolton style turbine housing setups have run a stock or evo exhaust manifold. The choke is at the manifold if anywhere not the turbine housing. They spool fast because the turbines can convert more exhaust energy to work and their compressor require less work to achieve and maintain a certain boost. They're more efficient.

    Efficiency and performance:

    The hx35 has a 52 lb/min compressor map that is more efficient at high boost than the 50-trim or 20g. The hx35 in the bolton housing has delivered 500whp and spools at the mid 3K range with 272 style cams and 2.0L. The hx35 flows a little more than the big h1c (most speculate around 2-3 lb/min) it has the same turbine wheel. The hy35 will spool faster than an hx35 but of course will choke out up top sooner because of the smaller turbine wheel. The hx40 in the bolton housing has delivered 650whp and spools in the very low 4K range with 272 style cams and 2.0L. Stock cams will see faster spool with both.

    Misc.:

    Holset's don't spool slow. They spool faster than their garrett or mitsubishi counterparts. Diesel exhaust is cold and slow moving. Holset patented map width enhancement. They do not have extended tip technology, but there compressors show more efficiency than their garrett or mitsubishi counterpart. They have superback technology with leads to VERY, VERY durable compressors. The are designed to be overworked and underpaid. There are discrepancies all over the web concerning the compressor maps. Take what you hear/read with a grain of salt and a shot of tequila, and the worm. The holset is fine with stock 4g63 oil pressure from the oil filter housing. If you have no b shafts, you'll need a restrictor. The drain line is a garret bolt pattern. The feed line is different for different turbos.

    From my brief dabble in turbomachinery during fluid dynamics, I believe I recall that the larger the diameter of the compressor for a radial turbomachine (radial setups are primarily used in very small turbine engines and of course all turbo chargers), the shorter the width from blade tip to back it can be before high boost efficiency is compromised. And in particular designs, it almost has to be shorter for any semblance of a broad efficiency map is to be achieved. And holset seams to really focus on a broad work envelope for their chargers. . . Also, the larger that width the more the molecules are packed on each other inside the compressor wheel. And very wide wheels see lots more momentum of air molecules. That's alot of heat and time to heat up the compressor. . . . There may be a good reason for the short compressor. I can't find any reference in my notes or handouts to verify this, but I hope it gives you hope :) . I think the turbo will do for you what you want.
     

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  21. biglady112

    biglady112 Proven Member

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    That is the thing. I am not sure where to feed this thing from 4G61's did not have balance shafts from the factory. That is actuallywhere all the OEM BSE parts come from.

    Steven
     
  22. OneLove

    OneLove Proven Member

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    Well i just found out that my 16g is basically shot. So now im hunting for a hx35/h1c.
    Is there anything i should be concerned about fitment wise and what not?
     
  23. assault187

    assault187 Proven Member

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    Anyone else catch any word on these billet wheel upgrades as JWoodley spoke of?


    Andy4g63....Ouch! Ramen is good stuff though!
     

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  24. ceedawg

    ceedawg Supporting Member

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    Hey Steve,
    would this turbine housing be infact bigger than a T3 16cm2 Holset T hsing? I figured it would measure a garrett similar .78 to .85 AR.

    1.15 would be kinda huge for the 16cm2 hsing I have.
     
    ceedawg

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  25. JWoodley

    JWoodley Proven Member

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    I saw it on EBay. Since then the auction has been taken down. I'm periodically Googling it to find them. I'm going to contact a few diesel specialty shops and see what they have on the topic.
     

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