Holset Turbos, PART 4

[biglady112]

I am going to run a RevHard Cast manifold. My friend with his 1G is running a similar turbo and the same manifold. The 1G's have the extra brace under the front of the car. So the cross member for the engine and the one on the driver's side. He is running a 1 1/2" bolt from the bottom through the brace. It is run up far enough that the bolt rests in the middle of the turbine housing. So he uses the brace and bolt to support the exhuast side of the turbo.

My car does not have the extra brace, but we were thinking of doing something similar to that. I am going to convert all the exhuast manifold studs to bolts and bottom tap all the holes to 10mm in the mean time though.

Steven

 

[Morphius]

Turbine housings and bolton solutions:

Get bolton BEP housings from theturbotrader.com. There are also larger t3 style housings that seam to flow more and don't sacrifice so much spool. The hx35 and h1c both fit in the hx35 footpront. MOST h1e turbines fit in an hx40 footprint. Don't get the small h1c from the non-intercooled pickups. The small h1c doesnot have an MWE groove or the webbing for it in the compressor inlet. The big h1c does not have the MWE groove, but does have the webbing. The hx35/h1c/hy35 has a t3 bolt pattern in the inlet. The hx40/h1e has a t4 inlet boltpattern. The hy35 has a smaller turbine wheel and aturbine housing connection that does not allow for a bolton housing to be used. It does not have a divided housing so any t3 manifold can be used effectively with this turbo. Running a divided turbine housing with an undivided runner manifold will lead to quite slower spool, but considering how fast they spool doing that puts them in the same spool range as other turbos that flow the same. Non of the top performing bolton style turbine housing setups have run a stock or evo exhaust manifold. The choke is at the manifold if anywhere not the turbine housing. They spool fast because the turbines can convert more exhaust energy to work and their compressor require less work to achieve and maintain a certain boost. They're more efficient.

Efficiency and performance:

The hx35 has a 52 lb/min compressor map that is more efficient at high boost than the 50-trim or 20g. The hx35 in the bolton housing has delivered 500whp and spools at the mid 3K range with 272 style cams and 2.0L. The hx35 flows a little more than the big h1c (most speculate around 2-3 lb/min) it has the same turbine wheel. The hy35 will spool faster than an hx35 but of course will choke out up top sooner because of the smaller turbine wheel. The hx40 in the bolton housing has delivered 650whp and spools in the very low 4K range with 272 style cams and 2.0L. Stock cams will see faster spool with both.

Misc.:

Holset's don't spool slow. They spool faster than their garrett or mitsubishi counterparts. Diesel exhaust is cold and slow moving. Holset patented map width enhancement. They do not have extended tip technology, but there compressors show more efficiency than their garrett or mitsubishi counterpart. They have superback technology with leads to VERY, VERY durable compressors. The are designed to be overworked and underpaid. There are discrepancies all over the web concerning the compressor maps. Take what you hear/read with a grain of salt and a shot of tequila, and the worm. The holset is fine with stock 4g63 oil pressure from the oil filter housing. If you have no b shafts, you'll need a restrictor. The drain line is a garret bolt pattern. The feed line is different for different turbos.

Nice. I'm going to post this on the first and last page of the prior threads.

 

[90CherryBomb]

My HX-40 setup:

HX40 with BEP housing (FP Mani, custom tubular o2)
oil fed from filter housing with FP Journal bearing restrictor (red)
FP 4" intake pipe to 2g maf
BC 272 cams / stock intake manifold

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Engine bay startup:
MySpaceTV Videos: Turby's first startup 8/10/08 by ronnie size, the barbarian

In-car reving, very quick, love the fidanza:
MySpaceTV Videos: Inside view of Turby's first startup by ronnie size, the barbarian

 

[biglady112]

Anyone have any recommenfations for oil feed for my HX-52. My gut is 50/50 on the head or filter housing. I have a 124,xxx mile 4G61. They do not have balance shafts from the factory. Where am I safer for the oil feed. I am not wanting this thing to smoke on my first pull.

Steven

 

[blcknspo0ln]

At the risk of being called a n00b, where are you guys getting these turbos from? the HX40 is peaking my interest, but can't seem to find any?

 

[90CherryBomb]

At the risk of being called a n00b, where are you guys getting these turbos from? the HX40 is peaking my interest, but can't seem to find any?

I actually got mine on DSMLink forums, for $705 shipped which included the 300 mile turbo (with warranty until jan 09), BEP housing, and fittings for oil feed and return.

When I was looking, I signed up to a few Dodge/Cummins forums where they sell them real cheap. I also searched around eBay and depending on what i searched for I found a few (HX40 HX-40 HX 40, etc)

 

[andy4g63]

At the risk of being called a n00b, where are you guys getting these turbos from? the HX40 is peaking my interest, but can't seem to find any?

Just call Nick from the turbotrader.com at 877-332-4705.

 

[Cs4g63]

I found my HX35W on craigslist. It took a little bit of searching but eventually I found a good one. My problem wasnt really finding one it is deciding on what exhaust housing to get and where I can get it.

 

[Slippi84]

I got the turbo on ebay for 540 and it was remanufactured so it was freshly rebuilty and as you can see from my pics was mint. I can refer you the seller if you wish but he had other stuff too. Like he sold me the correct size vband for my compressor outlet and he said he had them for the vband exhaust outlet too. I switched hotsides though to the .70ar t3 vband and I got that and the feed and return from Tim at tim's turbos(timsturbo.com). All together I probably spent about $750. I have a 7 blade hx40 w/ .70ar t3 by the way

 

[aero_sallee]

Picked up both my 8 bladed HX40W from ebay. $300 a couple years ago in almost new shape. And my current HE351VE also off ebay brand new for $400 shipped.

I've bought one other H1e off ebay, and 3 more HX40's and another VGT the HE431V for use on the equipment on the farm for my father. I've gotten one turbo that was bad out of all of them, and the seller ended up swapping me another that was in good condition. Every one of these was $300 or less.

The only one that has had any issues is the first HX40 that I had on my DSM, and that was from rod bearing material killing the bearings.
The HE431V VGT turbo went on a 8.3 also. It was an interesting experiment it worked out pretty well too.

The last HX40 we got, a non wastegated 8 bladed 19cm housing. It got installed on a 8.3 Cummins. The thing sounds totally different above 23-24 psi compared to lower boost. Going from the stock H1E with a 26cm housing to the HX40 and 19 dropped EGTs post turbo by 200-300 degrees. For the same amount of engine load the boost went from 17-18lbs to 26-28 lbs. Coolant temps dropped by a small amount also.

 

[Slippi84]

See you can pick them up on ebay in really good shape.

 

[nytescion]

Are you guys using gt series or Garrett fittings for the oil feed/drain? Reason i ask is I'm just got my hx40 and I'm trying to gather all the necessary hardware before I start my install.

 

[Slippi84]

Are you guys using gt series or Garrett fittings for the oil feed/drain? Reason i ask is I'm just got my hx40 and I'm trying to gather all the necessary hardware before I start my install.

The return is a t4 garret style and the feed is something weird like 12x1.25 or something can't remember but I just got my install kit from tims turbos as a whoel so couldn't tell you. Either hit up Tim or Martin at VIP and they will hook you up.

 

[Maglin]

Anyone have any recommenfations for oil feed for my HX-52. My gut is 50/50 on the head or filter housing. I have a 124,xxx mile 4G61. They do not have balance shafts from the factory. Where am I safer for the oil feed. I am not wanting this thing to smoke on my first pull.

Steven

I wouldn't feen any turbo from the oil filter housing anymore. I installed a HX35 using 4AN feed line from the head and have had zero issues with oil press being to high. Before the same turbo was being feed from the oil filter housing when I had it on my car using 4AN line and it would push oil past the turbine seal in the upper RPMs when the oil press got above 120 PSI on my gauge.

On about every car that had the turbo feed from the oil filter housing their where some issues with turbo's pushing oil past the turbine seal. And they all had the balance shafts removed btw.

And as said use a return for a standard Garret T4 turbo. Feeds varry from some of the different turbos. I checked my HX52 about a year ago for feed options. It looked like the best and cleanest option was to tap the inlet to use a AN fitting. If you where to worried about getting metal in the turbo doing that you would have to use some sort of bulky 2 bolt flange to feed the 52.

Also I believe Matt came across a HX52 map once and said it showed it flowing like 97 lbs/min. I think on your 1.6 you are going to be looking at like 40+ PSI to even think of kiepting it on the good side of the surge line. But this is probably a straight line car I would assume as it would surge like crazy on the street. Just my 2 pennies.

 

[dsmmike50t]

Finally got a log for my hx40 with the .82a/r housing. The results seem well worth it, going t3 was a good idea it freed up alot of power but is kinda laggy.

The log below shows whp est around 315-330whp at 17-18psi according to boost gauge in pod, but link shows something different. The run looks very similar to my dyno log, but keep in mind that this is my first run no tuning what so ever, running pig rich, and timing was retarded by one just to be safe. I can already see close to 400whp with some timing, 11.5 afr's and meth(1/2 way installed) at 20psi. The car is hauling ass without tuning.



YourFileHost.com - Free hosting for ALL your files S6

 

[biglady112]

If I can do 18-25psi on this thing I will be happy. There is no way the stock 1.6L can handle 40psi out of this thing. I don't think I will even be spinning this thing hard enough to make it surge. It will be a true test once it goes on. Part of this decision was for the challenge of it. In all aspects. My gut has been telling me to go off the head. Actually, a lot of my friend have gone back to feeding off the head. Too many issues going down lot.

Steven

 

[dsm-onster]

Dsmmike50t, I can't get that download to work to see your log. It keeps showing an error that I cannot connect to the server. . . You can upload it to dsmtuners just goe to edit your post and add it to your file uploads. If the file is too big, go into it and clip it.



Tom, I got my H1E, which is very close in performance to the hx40 (In fact, the turbine wheel of most H1Es fit in the BEP hx40 foot print), from ebay NEW for $300. It has the small 8 blade compressor and the map for it shows around 55lb/min at the edge. You used to be able to upgrade to a 60mm compressor and housing for $225 from htturbo.com, but you'll have to find another vendor like big power diesel. The 60mm wheel is of course the one that has put down the 650whp dyno run by badman21. They mention that "no internal modification to your turbo is required". Does that mean that there's no need to balance it? I havn't gotten a responce and I'm about to call them, since I have an h1e and h1c and I was thinking of puttign my smaller 8blade h1e wheel and compressor on my h1c as an upgrade, and then grabbing one of these 60mm wheels for my h1e. . .




I agree with Jeremiah completely. Feed from the head with a Holset if you have no balance shafts. They are designed to handle about 70psi oil pressure maximum per the holset manual. Now they also state that you need to show no less than 10 psi at idle and no less than 30psi at load (full spool).

If you HAVE balance shafts, the oil pressure may not exceed that 70psi maximum, but may very well not show enough oil pressure during idle or load if you feed from the head. I have bshafts, and I've not seen any issues with oil smoling otu the tail pipe. But I have seen a little oil at the joint/crack between the chra and turbine housing now develop. So I wonder if it's pushing just a small bit of oil past the rear seal or not. I also had a blown ring. Which could have raised the fuel pressure too high on boost? I don't know. But I'm tempted to feed it from the head as well.I'm just concerned about not having 30psi minimum oil pressure on load from the head, since I have bshafts. . .

 

[JWoodley]

Anyone have a link to the proper oil restrictors?

 

[Maglin]

Matt just remove them pesky bshafts. I just got everything in for my head job. Pretty much everything except the head casting is getting replaced/upgraded.

BigLady, I really like your thinking on tring something different. But I fear the 52 will not be what you are hoping for. I can guarantee you that you are not going to get even GT35R power levels at only 25 PSI. Don't be afraid of boost. Run 35+ and only run 10* of timing. It will have far more power and be more responsive. Being the rotating assembly is so heavy in the 52 it won't really start to move until you see 20PSI. Heck the HX35 didn't start to really acellerate until It was at 15 PSI for me. Once I hit 15 PSI 32 was just a blink away. You will never see over the surge line unless you plan to run to 10K (which I hope you are). I'm not tring to tell you it won't work. Just that you might want to rethink your boost target and tune accordingly.

Personally I'm planning on 45-65 PSI on my HX52 once it's actually on the car. I'll use 45 PSI on the street and somewhere up to 65 at the strip. As for the H1E I'm going to probably just run 35 PSI all the time. I just have to get another spring for the Tial to get it over 30.

And feeding from the head isn't just for holset's. I feel that way for all turbo's. Now on a V-8 I'll take oil from anywhere that lends itself to work, but I would also check the pressure and probably run restrictor's.

 

[dsm-onster]

Can't wait to see your build come together! I know that those bshafts are becoming a nusance. But, when they were removed, the car had SO many annoying simpathetic noises with my welded motor mounts installed. I drive this car practically every day, when it's running. It's apart now, I need to decide.

And I agree. Boost the heck out of it. In fact don't shoot for a target boost goal. Just get everything you can get out of it and your setup.

 

[biglady112]

I usually tune with big boost and low timing. But you have to remember. This is a 124,xxx mile stock 1.6L. And a heavy hitting 71mm compressor. My main goal is to make it useful and have fun with it. But the ultimate goal is to keep everything together and inside of the engine. I am not trying to make numbers another turbo can. I am trying to pull a 200mph gear. That is it. End of story.

Steven

 

[420a-t]

Matt, you were saying that I could upgrade my H1E to a 60mm compressor wheel? How much difference does that really do? (i have the .55a/r bep housing.) You also stated that the H1E flows 55lb/min, same as the hx-35, correct? So do I have an hx-35 with more lag basically?

 

[dsm-onster]

You can reach higher horsepower/flow with less boost with what you have vs. an hx35. This means better pumpgas numbers. Yes, the hx35 map goes to around 52 lb/min. But don't be discouraged. You have a little more lag but much more pumpgas potential. You still will see full boost right at 4K! I'll take pumpgas power over having to run race gas just to have fun. It's only about 500rpms narrower powerband and much easier on your wallet for those higher number goals.

And yes the 60mm wheel flows MUCH more. About 10lb/min based on the map. So the 60mm wheel is a 65lb/min compressor. It's a worthwhile upgrade.

 

[dsmmike50t]

Dsmmike50t, I can't get that download to work to see your log. It keeps showing an error that I cannot connect to the server. . . You can upload it to dsmtuners just goe to edit your post and add it to your file uploads. If the file is too big, go into it and clip it.

Figured it out link below.

BTW I'm finished moding for now. I'll just drive it till it breaks again, but I'll get what I can out of my car at 20psi and 94 octane. I'm already out of injectors at 18psi the link shows over 80% duty cycleWTF. The lag is kinda noticeable if I punch it at 3500rpms I won't see full boost till 4800 to 5000 which is still pretty good in my opinion. I'm on 91 octane and still no knock.

 

[dsm-onster]

I suspect the .82 garrett housing is going to be more laggy than a bep .70 housing...

40-41 lb/min with no drop off at 20psi using a 1g manifold! Even with 272s, that's ! Take out a little timing at 4K and you might get some faster spool. But primarily, you're running pig rich because your fuel sliders are zeroed out. Taking out fuel adds heat and speeds spool a bit.

I have a .48 garrett turbine housing from my old turboford. I really want to have that cut for the hx40/h1e turbine wheel. I have the small h1e/hx40 8blade compressor. So I'm not concerned about SO much topend.The 8blade compressor wheel shows 55-56 lb/min on the compressor map. The .48 is slightly smaller than the .55 BEP housing from my visual inspection. And if the .55 BEP housing with the hx40 turbine wheel is good for up to 650whp, then the spool with this housing could be a little faster and there still should be plenty of flow there to push the compressor to it's limit.

EDIT: Since the hx40/h1e turbine wheel is close to the size of the t3stage5 turbine I THINK using the .48 a/r garrett housing will work. Does anyone know a shop that will measure the specs and cut the housing to fit an hx40 footprint? Like you dsmmike .