Holset Turbos, PART 4

[dsm-onster]

Hmm intresting, Now do you think with a T4 non-divided manifold with the T4 divided 19cm housing will spool at least by 5k? That wouldnt be too bad for me.
Im worryed about spool by its not my main concern, the car will be mostly track car and not really street driven. The most boost it will see right now is 32psi.

If worst comes to worst im going to sell my t4 mani and get a turbonetics t3 replica and a BEP T3. housing. OR maybe keep my t4 maniold get a t4 to t3 adapter flange then run the BEp t3 70 ar housing.

I would definately go for the t3 bep housing. Laggier than the small bep housing, but spools under 4500rpms with the hx40. I have no experience on what the undivided manifold w/ a twinscroll turbo will do. But I do know having a setup like that the exhaust gases will see a turbine housing that will be atleast twice the size of a .63 a/r housing, 1.26 a/r. . . That's huge. The pulses when divided will each see an individual volute that is probably no bigger than a .84 a/r housing.

Left t3 .63 a/r, right holset 19cm^2 a/r^2. Looking down the volutes, each 19cm^2 scroll looks to have a similar area to the .63 a/r t3 scroll:

 

[ihatedsms]

Yea the 19cm looks way to big and way overkill. I just put my T4 mani up for sale and am going to get a fake turbonetics t3 manifold, and a BEP T3 .70 a/r housing! Thanks dsm-onster, you are the man!

 

[Slippi84]

Yea the 19cm looks way to big and way overkill. I just put my T4 mani up for sale and am going to get a fake turbonetics t3 manifold, and a BEP T3 .70 a/r housing! Thanks dsm-onster, you are the man!

You say that now wait till I bring my hx52 over

Yeah but to be honest with the goals you told me the other day a t3 .70ar hx40 will get you there

 

[1gDSM4g63]

fake turbonetics t3 manifold

Be careful on what manifold you get. HX40 with BEP T3 housing is rather large and the Turbonetics T3 manifold is known for not fitting the T3 turbos.

 

[ihatedsms]

Be careful on what manifold you get. HX40 with BEP T3 housing is rather large and the Turbonetics T3 manifold is known for not fitting the T3 turbos.

I thought i read somewhere on here that you run a t3 turbonetics and BEP t3 on your hx40. ???

 

[ihatedsms]

And if it fits a 12cm holset housing, its got to fit a BEP. I hope.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

I thought i read somewhere on here that you run a t3 turbonetics and BEP t3 on your hx40. ???

Well, there are a lot of people that say T3 turbos won't be able to fit using a Turbonetics manifold. It's just a bad design. Even if it's possible to not touch the block you'll have a lot of fabricating to do make it fit.

And if it fits a 12cm holset housing, its got to fit a BEP. I hope.

I'm pretty sure the T3 BEP .70 a/r is somewhere around 14-16 cm, it's not the BEP .55 a/r bolt-on housing. It's a big housing, I had to change my radiator, fans and fabricate a lot with my manifold to make it fit. Going bigger it not something you can do in 30 mins. It's a lot of work. It's a huge step.

 

[ihatedsms]

What did you have to fabricate? Do you have any pics?

 

[1gDSM4g63]

I'll take some pictures later, but you've seen a lot of pictures on the forum. Besides going with the BEP bolt-on, with the T3/T4 you need to fabricate the downpipe, o2 housing, spacers for the manifold, switch to slimmer radiator fans, and a thinner radiator just to make the turbo squeeze in there.

It will take longer then you expected it to. I thought I could do it within a month, but it took several months to let alone gather parts from pro fabricator to make downpipe and o2 fitting. The BEP T3 housing is a v-band not a 4-bolt or 5-bolt flange. It is not common, you have to find a fabricator.

Not to mention, you got go with forge internal block, head, fuel system, etc...

 

[We're on Boost]

I just got my BEP bolt on housing last week, mine fits absolutely fine, turbo bolted right in, no problems at all!

So you had some clearance to the water pipe and the block? No tricks like dented water pipe or NT water pipe, or spacers someplace?
I know you did some stuff to the fan and the radiator. But on the block side of it - it was ok as is?
I'm probably going to use the same turbine housing you have (the TMH1) so your fitment and mine should be pretty similar.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[dsm-onster]

The .70 a/r BEP housing seams to have plenty of clearance with a ERL cast stainless manifold. This is Andy4g63's setup:

 

[andy4g63]

Yeah, with ERL exhaust mani, I have plenty of room. This guy here, seems to have problems with Turbonetics manifold, but he has BW turbo. Don't know which one.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...v-band-turbine-turbonetics-manifold-fail.html

On the other hand Turbonetics fits fine on Tim G. set-up with Holset turbine housing.

 

[dsm-onster]

GORBS88. He runs the .70 a/r housing with the DNP tube manifold. I can't remember if he had to use a spacer. Perhaps he could chime in.

Just trying to get a list of manifolds that we know will work. The vband outlet is a serious upgrade to the dsm outlet. I've never been able to find a dsm outlet flange with a turbine opening remotely close to the diameter of the smallbep housing outlet. If I port my tubular o2 housings I think the flange would be so thin that I would have constant exhaust leaks. So a max effort hx40 or hx35 setup would really benefit from the large bep housing more than just better flow from larger a/r. As for lag, HAving an 8blade hx35 spool like a 50-trim but flow like a gt3076r would be fine right . It would be VERY interesting to see what the 7blade 60lb/min hx35 would do with the large bep housing.

 

[v8killer]

i bought a t3 bep housing w/internal wastegate for my hx35 and it has a standard dsm o2 housing bolt pattern not v-band ? i thought about switching to a bolt on bep housing w/internal wastegate if anyone is interested..........

 

[dsm-onster]

Is that the .55 a/r or the .70 a/r housing?

 

[JWoodley]

I had to run a 1/2 spacer with the FP race manifold with an HX40 in the .55ar BEP housing.

 

[ihatedsms]

I'll take some pictures later, but you've seen a lot of pictures on the forum. Besides going with the BEP bolt-on, with the T3/T4 you need to fabricate the downpipe, o2 housing, spacers for the manifold, switch to slimmer radiator fans, and a thinner radiator just to make the turbo squeeze in there.

It will take longer then you expected it to. I thought I could do it within a month, but it took several months to let alone gather parts from pro fabricator to make downpipe and o2 fitting. The BEP T3 housing is a v-band not a 4-bolt or 5-bolt flange. It is not common, you have to find a fabricator.

Not to mention, you got go with forge internal block, head, fuel system, etc...

Im not worried about fabing exhaust, i have to do that anyway, As long as it bolts up with out hitting the block. And im running a honda radatior so i wont have to worry about hitting it.
If worst come to worst i have to run a spacer, no biggie.

 

[dsm-onster]

There is an HX35 dyno shown on theturbotrader, here is a copy of it.
I'm wondering if anybody knows anything about the engine this was on, and is there info on it here in the forum someplace? Like, engine size, bolt-ons, fuel used, turbine housing used, stuff like that. I tried calling turbotrader, no answer of course.

I found this rummaging through the old holset threads for other bits of information:

Jason Morrow's HX35 dynograph. 2.0l 25-26psi in the bolton, internally gated housing.

 

[Slippi84]

Im not worried about fabing exhaust, i have to do that anyway, As long as it bolts up with out hitting the block. And im running a honda radatior so i wont have to worry about hitting it.
If worst come to worst i have to run a spacer, no biggie.

Jay will just cut and reweld the block with his fab skillz Like the fmic install. Fram in the way that's ok weight reduction is good anyway

 

[GORBS88]

GORBS88. He runs the .70 a/r housing with the DNP tube manifold. I can't remember if he had to use a spacer. Perhaps he could chime in.

Just trying to get a list of manifolds that we know will work. The vband outlet is a serious upgrade to the dsm outlet. I've never been able to find a dsm outlet flange with a turbine opening remotely close to the diameter of the smallbep housing outlet. If I port my tubular o2 housings I think the flange would be so thin that I would have constant exhaust leaks. So a max effort hx40 or hx35 setup would really benefit from the large bep housing more than just better flow from larger a/r. As for lag, HAving an 8blade hx35 spool like a 50-trim but flow like a gt3076r would be fine right . It would be VERY interesting to see what the 7blade 60lb/min hx35 would do with the large bep housing.

With my DNP tube manny and the t-3 hotside .70 A/R i have about half an inch to the water pipe with NO spacer or modification to the pipe. PERFECT fit!!!

 

[We're on Boost]

I had to run a 1/2 spacer with the FP race manifold with an HX40 in the .55ar BEP housing.

This is probably the info I'm looking for since you have the same manifold and turbine housing I'm planning on using.
Did you need the half inch spacer between the head and manifold (to move the turbo forward) or did you use it between the manifold and turbo (to move the turbo down)?
Was the clearance problem between the compressor housing and block, or to the water pipe?
Also I see your car is a 2g. Will my 1990 have any more room there, or do you think it would be the same?
Would a NonTurbo water pipe do any good?

Thanks,
Gary

 

[jkimes]

I finally got the turbo I wanted. It's a 7 blade HX40 pro with a billet 60mm compressor and a 19cm turbine housing that has been completely rebuilt like new, and It only cost me $379. Im shipping the turbo to Polk Performance and their gonna throw the car on the dyno for me after they get it bolted up. I'm gonna put in some C16 and turn up the boost to around 40psi and pray that nothing breaks. I'll post the results and dyno sheets in a week or two after I get her tuned.

 

[We're on Boost]

I found this rummaging through the old holset threads for other bits of information:

Jason Morrow's HX35 dynograph. 2.0l 25-26psi in the bolton, internally gated housing.

Wow there is some pretty interesting info there. Jason mentioned that his A/F was too rich in the spool region at the time - lots of black smoke. So that ~180 hp at 4000 rpm maybe could have been a bit better. As it is, 180hp at 4000 rpm is similar spool to what you would have with an S256 or a 50 trim or a GT3076, not really better. But overall it's a mighty fine result, 180hp at 4000rpm, 400hp at 5000rpm!, ~490hp at 6500rpm.
Somebody else in that thread (IPT) had a TO4B compressor cover on his HX35 so he wouldn't have to smack his water pipe. He had to modify the back plate to fit on the smaller cover.

I'm just going to take a look now at the recent results in evom posted by Keith at Pure-Tuning for the S259. He's got pump gas and race gas results all on the .55ar BEP housing. I'm thinking his race gas results are pretty similar to Jason's. Hmm, well, they are, except that Jason was at much lower boost! Both making ~180hp at 4000rpm, 300hp at 4500rpm, 400hp at 5000 rpm!, ~500hp at 6000rpm, I'm looking at the race gas curve on page 1 of Keith's thread. On page 3 of his thread he has a pump gas only dyno with the newest Magnus intake mani. Mighty fine results for both turbos.

One thing I don't get about Jason's dyno, this was in 2005 now, it says "SAE HP" and nothing about what kind of dyno it was on. Do you guys think the numbers might have been "corrected" to be hp at the flywheel instead of wheel horsepower? Can you really make 490 awhp on 750cc injectors without meth? Keith's numbers were on a Mustang dyno. His thread is a really good one BTW. He said he is going to put a S362 on next.

Pure Tuning Borg Warner S259 Dyno Results! - evolutionm.net

Any thoughts?

Gary

 

[ihatedsms]

Screw it!, im keeping the t4 mani and getting a garrett .70 a/r housing and having it machined. To much of a hassle to sell my mani, buy a t3 mani and buy a bep t3 housing and a spacer, longer studs, etc. All i have to do now is buy the garrett housing and have it machined.

Man what a pain in the ass. Oh well it will all be worth it once i have the right turbo setup that i know will fit.

Heres the housing im gonna get and have machined..
If anybody knows where i can get one cheaper let me know.

 

[ihatedsms]

Jay will just cut and reweld the block with his fab skillz Like the fmic install. Fram in the way that's ok weight reduction is good anyway

Haha.