Holset Turbos, PART 7

[dsm-onster]

The 10balde actually flows a little less and spools a little faster according to Vigge who contacted holset about it. Here's his thread on his holset results with that very turbo: Click. I thought that turbine was more rare. I've yet to see one after looking at probably 40 or 50 various hx40s. . .

The 7blade is a revision of the large 6blade. And the flow and efficiency is so similar that holset never even released a revised compressor map. So there's still only three flow/efficiency choices on the compressor side and 2 turbine wheel choices .

 

[SpeedAddict62]

For a given engine, HP is a function of boost and rpm. Increase either of the two, and you increase power. All else being equal, at the same boost two different turbos will make the same power, although in the real world this is not the case as we have to deal with the effects of efficiencies and VE. Anyway, my point is that people should choose a turbo to run a given boost, not the other way around. That being said, you are unlikely to lose power going to a bigger turbo at the same boost level.

Does anyone know of a good source for used turbine housings? It seems that no one sells them on here, and ebay has them sometimes but they end up going for $100, and I don't want feel that they are worth that much when you can buy the whole turbo for twice as much. Specifically, I have a 21 cm housing right now, and I haven't run it but I know it is probably going to be laggier than I want. I was considering the idea of picking up a few different turbine housings of various sizes and running each of them to see how they compare to each other. I already have a bung in each runner for measurement purposes (backpressure, EGT, etc.) and a top mount divided manifold. The only thing holding me back from swapping turbine housings is 6 bolts and a v-band clamp.

 

[dsm-freak]

For a given engine, HP is a function of boost and rpm. Increase either of the two, and you increase power. All else being equal, at the same boost two different turbos will make the same power,


not really, the amount of air flow the turbo produces is a more relavent factor than the boost its capable of. if to differant turbos are at the same boost pressure the one capable of flowing more air will make more power. thats the reson you get a bigger turbo is to flow more air not necesarlly run more boost. even though you can run more boost with a bigger turbo its still just flowing more lb/hr than a smaller turbo could.

 

[big_d]

I have a 12cm off a 35. PM me if you're interested.

 

[JusMX141]

I have a 12cm off a 35. PM me if you're interested.

....and I have, like, twenty of them.

So many that I recently went through and pulled the ten or so nicest housings and put them aside- the rest are in the scrap barrel out behind the shop.

 

[SpeedAddict62]

not really, the amount of air flow the turbo produces is a more relavent factor than the boost its capable of. if to differant turbos are at the same boost pressure the one capable of flowing more air will make more power. thats the reson you get a bigger turbo is to flow more air not necesarlly run more boost. even though you can run more boost with a bigger turbo its still just flowing more lb/hr than a smaller turbo could.

Yeah, I've noticed this is the prevailing mindset...

Our engines are air pumps. If we somehow manage to increase the pressure in the intake (boost) or decrease the pressure in the exhaust (clever pulse tuning) we will increase the airflow through the engine. Boost increases mass airflow, mass airflow means horsepower. A great example, if you ever see it, is a chart of hp vs. boost from the 80's era of turbo F1 cars. Power rose almost linearly with boost. For a given power output (and therefore a given boost) there will be one turbo that gives the best power, and this is a function of efficiency (of both turbine and compressor). Airflow is the result of a pressure differential across the engine, not the other way around.

If you have an issue with this, PM me, so it doesn't get off topic.

To bring this back to the issue at hand, Holsets are obviously making big power because they are efficient at the pressure ratios we operate them at, which should come as no surprise as 1. diesel EGTs are lower than gasoline and 2. they usually operate at higher pressure ratios than regular production gasoline engines.

 

[big_d]

....and I have, like, twenty of them.

So many that I recently went through and pulled the ten or so nicest housings and put them aside- the rest are in the scrap barrel out behind the shop.

You might be able to help out SpeedAddict62 then. I'm not sure what size he is looking for, but I'm sure you have one to throw at him. What did the 21cm housing come on, and that would be t4?

 

[JWoodley]

I'd really like a 16-18cm non wastegated HX40 housing if anyone has one.

 

[JusMX141]

I'd really like a 16-18cm non wastegated HX40 housing if anyone has one.

I think all of the T3 HX40 housings in that size frame are wastegated. I had a 17cm T4 HX40 housing once that was not wastegated.

Are you opposed to welding the flapper shut?

 

[dsm-onster]

For a given engine, HP is a function of boost and rpm. Increase either of the two, and you increase power. All else being equal, at the same boost two different turbos will make the same power, although in the real world this is not the case as we have to deal with the effects of efficiencies and VE. Anyway, my point is that people should choose a turbo to run a given boost, not the other way around. That being said, you are unlikely to lose power going to a bigger turbo at the same boost level.

Does anyone know of a good source for used turbine housings? It seems that no one sells them on here, and ebay has them sometimes but they end up going for $100, and I don't want feel that they are worth that much when you can buy the whole turbo for twice as much. Specifically, I have a 21 cm housing right now, and I haven't run it but I know it is probably going to be laggier than I want. I was considering the idea of picking up a few different turbine housings of various sizes and running each of them to see how they compare to each other. I already have a bung in each runner for measurement purposes (backpressure, EGT, etc.) and a top mount divided manifold. The only thing holding me back from swapping turbine housings is 6 bolts and a v-band clamp.

VE and hense total flow is GREATLY increase with a higher flowing turbine wheel/housing. Increasing the flow of either or both (going from evo3 16g hotside to a bolton hx35 hotside is an increase in both), you will drastically increase the flow at the same boost hense torque at the same boost. That's why I gained so much more flow at a lower boost going to a bolton h1c/hx35 vs. a 16g that was not wrung out at all.

Yes efficiency affects total flow as well. Not compressor efficiency itself; since the difference in the temperature of aircharger at 75% efficiency and 65% efficiency is within 10 degrees F after either is passed through a 75% efficient intercooler, something even an ssac FMIC can achieve. But the fact that that 15% (75%/65%) less energy required to drive the compressor to sustain that same boost translates to 15% less enerrgy the turbine needs from the exhaust gases. All things being equal, the wastegate shunts 15% more exhaust straight to the tailpipe. This is thus about a 15% increase in hotside flow. And see above: VE isn increased 15% and thus total flow is increased 15%.

 

[JusMX141]

What did the 21cm housing come on, and that would be t4?

Old early-generation Dodges for sure (H1C); possibly some type of off-road vehicle as well.

I recall riding in a few older Dodge trucks that most likely had the 21cm H1C on them. You could tell from the sound of the turbo that the boost was VERY slow to respond, much like a semi would be. The newer Dodge trucks with the 12cm housing respond at a much lower RPM....although I'm sure the turbo doesn't make as much peak pull as it would if it were a 21cm. Most daily-drivers don't notice this at all.

I believe that the 21cm housings are still popular with guys that pull with their trucks.

 

[JWoodley]

I think all of the T3 HX40 housings in that size frame are wastegated. I had a 17cm T4 HX40 housing once that was not wastegated.

Are you opposed to welding the flapper shut?

anything in the T4?

 

[JusMX141]

I don't have anything in a T4 housing, no. I had a 17cm one but it was absolute garbage; all cracked and rusted. It's design was like this:

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I stand corrected- there apparently are 12cm non-wastegated HX35 housings available, although I've yet to see one on any turbo I've received:

 

[Slippi84]

I don't have anything in a T4 housing, no. I had a 17cm one but it was absolute garbage; all cracked and rusted. It's design was like this:

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What was that a hx52 or a hx55? That housing looks like my 16cm on my hx52

 

[JusMX141]

I have no idea, I robbed that photo from Google. I just used it as an example to show the design of the 17cm T4 HX40 housing I had which ended up being junk. The area of the twin-scroll housing around the turbine was all rotten away, and all of the hold-down bolts had broken off in the housing. Good turbo core, bad housing.

 

[JWoodley]

I don't have anything in a T4 housing, no. I had a 17cm one but it was absolute garbage; all cracked and rusted. It's design was like this:

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What was that a hx52 or a hx55? That housing looks like my 16cm on my hx52

Speaking of which...are you running your 52 on a topmount or bottom mount setup?

 

[SpeedAddict62]

You might be able to help out SpeedAddict62 then. I'm not sure what size he is looking for, but I'm sure you have one to throw at him. What did the 21cm housing come on, and that would be t4?

I'm looking for anything other than 12 or 21. The 21 cm^2 housing is a T3.

dsmonster, I was considering VE separately, and referring more to the characteristics of the turbine/compressor wheels. I completely agree with you that VE is a big part of it though.

Thanks again to Jusmx141 for helping me out yet again!

 

[Slippi84]

Speaking of which...are you running your 52 on a topmount or bottom mount setup?

A JHRacing bottom mount that is designed for big tubros like GT42r's and S374s. I am still amazed that any bottom mount can support a turbo like this. Hell I can barley pick the thing up with one hand with the manifold turbo and wastegates all together.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

A JHRacing bottom mount that is designed for big tubros like GT42r's and S374s. I am still amazed that any bottom mount can support a turbo like this. Hell I can barley pick the thing up with one hand with the manifold turbo and wastegates all together.

I running the same turbo as slippi84, 16 cm T4 HX52, with a JHRacing bottom mount manifold too and it's the most amazing design but you'll need to do a lot of fabrication for a side exhaust. I don't think an o2 housing to downpipe it possible.

Although you'll probably need to go with a top mount manifold if you're going to run a 21 cm housing.

 

[Slippi84]

I running the same turbo as slippi84, 16 cm T4 HX52, with a JHRacing bottom mount manifold too and it's the most amazing design but you'll need to do a lot of fabrication for a side exhaust. I don't think an o2 housing to downpipe it possible.

Although you'll probably need to go with a top mount manifold if you're going to run a 21 cm housing.

I would be curious to see how you routed your side exhaust as it looks like you went up and then came down which I could see be a pain in the ass. I was just going to use a torch or cutter and cut that corner of the frame that is in the way just enogh to snake the pipe down and around and out the front bumper..

By the way do you run any kind of brace or do you have any kind of special exhaust studs?

 

[1gDSM4g63]

I would be curious to see how you routed your side exhaust as it looks like you went up and then came down which I could see be a pain in the ass. I was just going to use a torch or cutter and cut that corner of the frame that is in the way just enogh to snake the pipe down and around and out the front bumper..

By the way do you run any kind of brace or do you have any kind of special exhaust studs?

I'll put more detail pictures of my side exhaust later, but I reused the opening I already cut before for my side FMIC piping and spare 90 degree 4" piping parts. I suppose if you're going to cut the corner of the frame that would make it easier to make a fairly straight exhaust. However, I would think of some way to support it or it'll just be more weight hanging from the exhaust studs.

I didn't make a support brace, but when I got head built the machine shop did retap the helicoils and put stronger studs in. Hopefully that's enough to support the manifold, turbo, 2x wastegate and the dump.

 

[604CruisinCroat]

I running the same turbo as slippi84, 16 cm T4 HX52, with a JHRacing bottom mount manifold too and it's the most amazing design but you'll need to do a lot of fabrication for a side exhaust. I don't think an o2 housing to downpipe it possible.

Although you'll probably need to go with a top mount manifold if you're going to run a 21 cm housing.

Is JHRacing's site down or somethin?

 

[1gDSM4g63]

Is JHRacing's site down or somethin?

Jake's site has been down quite a while now. Don't if he's still in business, but if he is just email [email protected] of PM topstreet. Although he's been inactive for quite a while now.

 

[Slippi84]

Is JHRacing's site down or somethin?

Yeah idk what happend to his site but like he said he's been pretty scarce these days. He started a rwd build thread and was doing some bad ass stuff and the poof gone. I"m sure there are people local to him that are still up on what he's doing but if you can get a hold of him he makes great stuff, a lot of which is at the heart of my build.

 

[talon20g]

Just picked up a new HX55 and I was curious if the 16cm housing on the hx52 will fit the hx55.