Holset Turbos, PART 5

[dsmmatt28]

Well I belive when I ordered my turbo david at bullseye said it was a s259 so I belive its the bigger wheel however all the new s258 ordered now come with the bigger comp wheel.So my buddie ordered a hx 40 its not the supper. I was telling him that my s258 flows the same or a little more than the hx 40 I know that it cost a little more but the maps looked great. Anyhow he doesn't belive me is were I'm going with this.

 

[andy4g63]

So, you both guys, bolt on your turbos and let us know, who is right !?!?!?

 

[ScottH]

How much more power is on tap if you choose the T3 70ar BEP housing over the BEP bolt-on housing? This would be with the hx40 60mm turbo on a 2.0L

 

[andy4g63]

My guess would be 50HP.

The more proper question would be:
How much more increase in FLOW I will see with 0.70 AR T3 compared to bolt-on BEP 0.55 AR ???

 

[dsm-onster]

Well I belive when I ordered my turbo david at bullseye said it was a s259 so I belive its the bigger wheel however all the new s258 ordered now come with the bigger comp wheel.So my buddie ordered a hx 40 its not the supper. I was telling him that my s258 flows the same or a little more than the hx 40 I know that it cost a little more but the maps looked great. Anyhow he doesn't belive me is were I'm going with this.

You mean turbine wheel? There are only 2 compressor wheel and 2 turbine wheel options for the s2** series turbos. I'd measure the turbine wheel. You're not sure. You were given unclear turbo nomenclature and not wheel measurements. It would be in your best interest to know which turbine wheel you have considering the DRASTIC difference between the two. You will be VERY hard pressed to get to 60lb/min with the turbine flow of the smaller turbine wheel. You could have a an hx85 size compressor on your turbo, but that means NOTHING if it is coupled with a small turbine. you get no increse in flow if you can't get airflow outside of the motor what you can put in it.

All s258s come with a compressor wheel smaller than the super40 wheel. All s258s have the same compressor, the turbine wheel may be different and that is where you'll see the difference. You'll see less flow per psi withthe smaller wheel. Your friend has the same turbine wheel badman21 used to make 650+ whp with the small a/r bep housing. The stregth of the holset is in it's turbine wheel design. It flows SO very much for it's spool speed. The run of the mill hx40 with the 58mm 8blade 60lb/min compressor has a compressor that flows as much as the s256-s258 and has a turbine that will yield more horsepower per psi than any other turbine wheel that spools in the same range. The larger s2** turbine wheel spools later. You may have the same peak power, but the hx40 will hit eariler and have a broader range of power.

Nothing against the Borg-Warner turbos. They shine when you have to use boost to make up for flow, just like a holset. I.E., a stock cammed setup or making a 4 cylinder run 6 seconds. The more efficient compressor draws on less exhaust energy for the turbine so a better flowing turbine can be used. The holset has a slightly less efficient compressor but extracts the most energy from the massflow of the turbine to make high total efficiency possible. The 58mm inducer hx40 your friend has will spool as fast as your large turbine s2** borg-warner or probably faster and will flow about the same. There's a minimal difference in flow and efficiency for the compressor. The standard 58mm hx40 map's massflow perameter needs to be multiplied by .7333 to yield comparable lb/min flow:

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Slippi is right, holset is bargain basement with tech that rivals or exceeds all other brands. Listen to Andy. Go find out. There's enough controversy with Garrett vs. any other brand because of DSMer lack of foresight and "you get what you pay for" mentality; instead of the more effective thought process on how and why somethig works and the "paying for what you get" mentality. The difference between BW and holset is minimal compaired to the HUNDREDS of dollars more you have to spend for a turbo that FP christens or what garrett over-prices. Either is better because you get the value of a SMIM or cam upgrade out of the purchase of either.

 

[dsmmatt28]

We are both on the .55 turbine wheel. Im going to switch over to the t3 housing next year. I realize that the map is based on the t3 housing.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

How much more increase in FLOW I will see with 0.70 AR T3 compared to bolt-on BEP 0.55 AR ???

I'm also interested in that too. I recent switch over from a BEP bolt-on to BEP T3. I know it spool a little later it definitely puts out more power.

 

[dsm-onster]

We are both on the .55 turbine wheel. Im going to switch over to the t3 housing next year. I realize that the map is based on the t3 housing.

No you both don't have the same turbine wheel. You both have the .55 a/r turbine housing. The bolton housing. The turbine wheel is the thing that spins the compressor. The turbine housing tweeks flow and spool speed. It does not determine the overall potential of the hotside.

The turbine housing has absolutely nothing to do with the compressor map whatsoever.

Here's some good articles on turbochargers. How stuff works: turbochargers. Wikipedia: turbochargers.

Here's a good Holset video on how turbochargers work:

Holset video on how turbochargers work.

 

[dsmmatt28]

im on the 64¿74 wheel im not sure what he is on. yes we are on the same .55 housing not sure what his wheel is.

 

[dsmmatt28]

i know how a turbo wks had a brain fart.

 

[dsm-onster]

AH! sorry bud .

He's running the only hx40 turbine wheel there is: the 64mm/76mm wheel. The same wheel that made 653whp in the .55 a/r bep turbine housing. The flow is there for his turbine. The larger turbine wheel inducer (76mm) give him faster spool. And his compressor flows a little less. I'd gather that the chargers are pretty evenly matched. . .

 

[dsmmatt28]

No you both don't have the same turbine wheel. You both have the .55 a/r turbine housing. The bolton housing. The turbine wheel is the thing that spins the compressor. The turbine housing tweeks flow and spool speed. It does not determine the overall potential of the hotside.

The turbine housing has absolutely nothing to do with the compressor map whatsoever.

Here's some good articles on turbochargers. How stuff works: turbochargers. Wikipedia: turbochargers.

Here's a good Holset video on how turbochargers work:

Holset video on how turbochargers work.

What I was saying about the map is that I realize that it reflects the turbo with a bigger turbine wheel. Which is in the bigger housing which happens to be in the t3 or t4 I'm not sure what the s258 map reflects.

 

[dsm-onster]

What I was saying about the map is that I realize that it reflects the turbo with a bigger turbine wheel. Which is in the bigger housing which happens to be in the t3 or t4 I'm not sure what the s258 map reflects.

The s258 map is of the s258 compressor wheel and the housing that goes with it. It does not matter which turbine wheel or housing is on the other end of the turbo shaft. The efficiency of the compressor, the amount of work it demands to meat flow demands, the rpms required to achieve a certain pressure ration and flow, etc. will not be changed. That's all I was saying. You don't have to worry about which turbine is on the other end of the turbo when comparing compressor maps.

Now, you DO have to worry about which turbine you have when you are comparing to whole turbos. . .

 

[dsmmatt28]

The s258 map is of the s258 compressor wheel and the housing that goes with it. It does not matter which turbine wheel or housing is on the other end of the turbo shaft. The efficiency of the compressor, the amount of work it demands to meat flow demands, the rpms required to achieve a certain pressure ration and flow, etc. will not be changed. That's all I was saying. You don't have to worry about which turbine is on the other end of the turbo when comparing compressor maps.

Now, you DO have to worry about which turbine you have when you are comparing to whole turbos. . .

HMMMM well you learn something new everyday Now I see thanks!!

 

[dsm-onster]

I'm with Andy. I would be really interested in a comparison of these turbos: the bolton 8blade 58mm hx40 and the bolton s256 with the large turbine wheel. They look to deliver very similar results. Will you two be having the same modifications? If you do, post up some comparison logs, spool speed differences, and/or track results.

 

[wancsta]

Hi all hate to cut in on the Holset vs. BW topic. I have been following these threads for a while now. So I went ahead and picked up a 7 blade HX-35 with low miles in great shape a few months back. The problem I am having is how the hell do I get this thing on my car for under $300 more bux? It seems every configuration I come up with in my head ends up to be around $4-500 (not including what I paid for the turbo itself) which is still great considering the price of a comparable performing turbo. I was now wondering how much spool I would sacrafice by using a mitsu to t3 flange adapter on the stock holset divided housing. I have read that with the undivided tubular t3 manifold and 272's spool was around 4000rpm's or so. I know this would be an ultra cheap route but when I first got into this that is what I was going for other than that ebay gt35r that jusmx has proven to be not so hot. Mods are up to date in profile thanks for any responses in advance.

BTW dsm-monster one of these vendors bep/turbo trader/tims turbos/ or holset themself should sooo have hooked you up and got you out of that h1c a long time ago. Sponsorship much? Just a thought.

 

[dsm-onster]

You're ready to go with a sub-$250 bep bolt on housing. Just dent the water pipe. You will have $50 plus left over. You can add this to the sale of your small 650s and walbro 190 and get a walbro 255 with better fuel control for the larger injectors you will need .

Otherwise, you can just run the turbo and have about the same spool speed as your current one and save up later for upping the boost to a higher horsepower level. You're ready to go with everything but fuel and fuel control for pushing the limit of an hx35 in a bep bolton housing.

. . .I can't get out of the h1c just yet. It still have to make the compressor map for it. I'll use an accurate 2g maf to do so.

 

[wancsta]

With the bolt on housing you then have to add on either the internal gate and actuator or go with an external setup not to mention the lines and then i'm right back at $400 or so. Unless i'm missing something? The only vendor I did'nt call is tims turbo is it that much cheaper?

I know there are holes in my setup. It is the bare necessities but it actually works quite well for now. I have a 255 waiting. Link and 1000cc's is coming after I get my check from uncle sam this year.

 

[GST95]

If you stay with the holset housing you will have to either go external wastegate or get a bigger flap and hope you can port the wastegate hole enough to keep the boost down. Otherwise you will probably have to live with 20+psi. After porting the hole on my wh1c to 23-24mm (slight oval) from the stock 20mm, it would still creep to 30psi and i had a slight exhaust leak at the head. The lack of exhaust im sure wasnt helping matters either, so with full exhaust you will be able to reduce the creep. I dont know how much the 7 blade wheel will effect spool, but i was seeing full boost with the 8 blade wheel around 3600rpm and i didnt get a chance to do any tuning with it.

If it were me and i was trying to get the most for my money, Id go ebay t3 header and ebay external and holset housing.

I dont remember anybody mentioning this earlier, but you can adjust the holset actuator rod. You have to drill out where it is locked. You might want to add a nut to be able to lock it again when you have it adjusted where you want it. This will let you lower the spring rate on the actuator to lower boost, but you would still need enough flow at the hole itself to accomplish this.

 

[We're on Boost]

Hey, I'm going to help Dsmmatt straighten out his brain fart on the previous page - about the BW wheel sizes available, both compressor and turbine. We went through a bunch of these questions in another thread starting with post #182 here:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/301333-resolved-bw-s256-boost-issues-7.html

and going through post #199.

dsmmatt has a dynojet run showing close to 250 whp at 4000 rpm on e85 (if you can read it - it was a cell phone picture and it was in mph, we figured I think 53 or 54 mph for 4000 rpm). Anyway that is fantastic spool. The top end was only about 370 hp but his engine was sick and he took it all apart afterwards. Yeah his turbine is the small one, the ~69/61mm one. And David Hall says yes they increased the inducer diameter of the compressor to 59mm and didn't tell anybody for a while. In the thread it seems like 2 different people both got the 69/61mm turbine wheel by default (without asking for it) but I asked David Hall about that later and he says actually the ~74/64 turbine is still the standard one. Haven't figured that one out yet.

BTW, Keith at Pure-Tuning says he is going to test an "S262" on an evo and post the results in evom. That would be the S200 with I guess the compressor wheel from the S362. So if that's for real it would be yet another addition to the S200 family.

Gary

 

[dsmmatt28]

Thanks Gary !! Btw ordered Injectors I will keep you updated on the new results soon.

 

[Slippi84]

I just got done ceramic coating my jhr manifold and the hotside of my hx52 last night came out real good. I did 2 coats on friday waited a couple days then did the last coat as per the can. I used VHT flamable cermaic coating which is rated to like 1300-2000* in flat black.

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Sorry for the cell phone pics but you get the idea. I will be doing my exhaust in the same coating too when it's done.

 

[andy4g63]

I hope it'll hold, otherwise, looks good.

 

[We're on Boost]

Thanks Gary !! Btw ordered Injectors I will keep you updated on the new results soon.

You are welcome.
Hope your new rebuild works great and it will be interesting to see another dyno from you sometime!

Gary

 

[420a-t]

With the bolt on housing you then have to add on either the internal gate and actuator or go with an external setup not to mention the lines and then i'm right back at $400 or so. Unless i'm missing something? The only vendor I did'nt call is tims turbo is it that much cheaper?

I know there are holes in my setup. It is the bare necessities but it actually works quite well for now. I have a 255 waiting. Link and 1000cc's is coming after I get my check from uncle sam this year.

I rigged-up a stock 14b actuator on the bolt-on housing and it worked fine for me until I was trying to boost past 22+psi. I don't think it was meant for 22+psi from an H1E compared to 22psi on a 14b . If you'd like, I can find some pictures and post them up.