Holset Turbos, PART 2

[JWoodley]

Is anyone running a 40 or 35 with the 38mm internal gate? I'm debating going this route.

 

[GORBS88]

Is anyone running a 40 or 35 with the 38mm internal gate? I'm debating going this route.

DOnt do it!! The 38mm internal gate will cause nuthing but problems, i had to fight for weeks tryin to figure out why i couldnt boost over 24psi. Turned out the gate was blowing open, then once i searched on it i found out most guys were havin the same problem. I have a TIAL 44 external on route and welding the internal shut!!

 

[AK1RA07]

I had initially thought of running the internal gate too, but it seems a lot of people have problems with it. I've been looking into this external setup on the O2 housing.. probably a stupid question, but would that mean I would just have to removed the flapper on the internal gate rather than welding it shut?

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Anyone running a setup like this? Any advantages to venting to atmosphere rather than recirculating back into the exhaust?

 

[brute]

Yes, you're correct. Completely remove the flapper.

Conversely, if you are to run a manifold-mounted external wastegate, you'd need to weld the flapper shut.

If you reroute the wastegate tube back into the exhaust correctly (i.e. not at a right angle), it should be just fine. It pretty much all comes down to noise level and sound quality preference.

 

[JWoodley]

DOnt do it!! The 38mm internal gate will cause nuthing but problems, i had to fight for weeks tryin to figure out why i couldnt boost over 24psi. Turned out the gate was blowing open, then once i searched on it i found out most guys were havin the same problem. I have a TIAL 44 external on route and welding the internal shut!!

The reason I ask is that I have this beautiful 3" 03 housing and I don't want to toss it aside. I've yet to find a 3" 02 mounted external gate setup. I'll keep looking I suppose.

 

[coltboostin]

Yea, I've seen several guys record lbs/min sugggested by the hx35 compressor map. Which is right around where a 50 trim is. The HX40 pro has been proven to get to serious numbers.

Garretts wern't proven in the 90s . . .

There has to be a beginning somewhere.

Really? I though the HX35's were supposed to be higher flowing than a 50 trim-something between a 57 trim and a 61mm.

Sweet93- 128mph is not bad. Was this on a full HX40 or a 40/35?

 

[dsm-onster]

The holset maps provided by the cummins engineer on the first page of the first thread shows the hx35 maxes out at around 700cfm. This comes out to about 50lbs/min at sea level on a 70 degree day.

 

[JWoodley]

Hmmm. I was talking to a diesel turbo company that is somewhat local and they we're recommending this to me:

http://www.citydiesel.net/dodgezilla-turbo-p-30.html?cPath=32_34

I think I'd rather go with a true HX40. Can someone link me to the differences in the turbos such as H1C vs H1E?

 

[dsm-onster]

Considering that the hx35 turbine diameters are close to t3 stage 5 diameters, then it SHOULD flow similarly to that turbine. Sweet97 reported on the hybrid in this thread. He had it all rung out at *around* 500 hp, and couldn't get much more than that. He had the smaller hx40 compressor wheel.

Keep in mind that a turbine can choke up any compressor. the compressor map may show big numbers, but the turbine will not let it flow. A good example is the 60-1/t3 stage3 hybrid (sc60). Or the 56trim/t3stage 5 hybrid (sc61)

BTW, nice to see that hx40 pro compressor map on that link . It's measured in cfm. This is better because you can plug in your altitude and likely intake temps and get a better ballpark on the flow for your setup. 900cfm is the max flow for this compresor wheel. For my area and today's temp, 900cfm comes out to roughly 70 lbs/min. I doubt the hx35 turbine and 12 cm^2 housing it is attached to can flow enough for over 700 hp .

 

[JWoodley]

Those guys at City are pretty knowledgeable. I was going to post the link to the charts later tonight. I missed them the first time through.

EDIT: So H1C = hx35 and H1E = hx40, right?

EDIT 2: I'm reading that the 6 blade compressor wheel is more efficient than the 8 and possibly makes a bit more power. How's everyone's take on this?

 

[dsm-onster]

Yea, the 6 blade hx40 pro blade is the "big'un". . . There are 3 known compressor maps for the hx40 and there are 3 known compressor wheels. Logically, from what the diesel shops have said, the highest flowing map shows the 6blade, then the next highest flowing map shows the 7, then the 8 is the lowest flowing map.

*If* you ASSume the three hx40 maps describe these wheels, the 7 blade is almost as good as the 6 blade (within 3 lbs/min). The 8 blade, which Sweet97 was running w/ his hybrid, is actually not as efficient nor flows as much as the hx35 compressor wheel found on the cummins pickups according to the hx35 and hy35 maps.

Of course, the hx40 turbine wheel used w/ all three hx40 compressors should flow more than the hx35 turbine wheel.

A note: Interestingly, that compressor map from that link you've provided for the "dodgezilla" looks nearly identical to the middle hx40 compressor map to which I linked. Not the highest flowing hx40 map. And we've been given consistant info that the 6blade flows the most.

As stated by citydiesel.net, "The Dodgezilla Hybrid Turbo features the largest HX-40 compressor side avaliable allowing your turbo to flow more air." This doesn't neccesarily mean that this hybrid uses the 6 blade hx40 compressor wheel. They don't state that they are using the highest flowing wheel. . . That compressor map they are referencing does not correspond to the highest flowing hx40 compressor map. I'm not negating the quality or potential of this turbo. After all, this map is significantly more efficient and yields only slightly less flow than the highest flowing map.

There is no title on that map . . . something common for "hyjacked" holset maps. I've seen several holset maps show no title and they suspiciously look just like other maps that are not what the owner states. It's not their fault. I think it is rediculous for holset to be so secretive about their compressor maps. There are other shops that can generate a compressor flow map for any wheel. I can understand not giving us tuner guys the time of day when we call in to them, because we're not their decided target market. But, posting the maps would just help their own market make better decisions and be happier w/ their purchase.

 

[JWoodley]

I was talking with City Diesal and they said the:

"The H1E is obsolete and replaced by the HX40. The H1E and HX40 are completely different turbos and are not part interchangeable. We can build an HX40 with any wheel you want, we stock the 61mm 6 blade wheel, and the 61mm 8 blade wheel. (you want the HX40 instead of an H1E. The H1E is old inefficient technology).

Which wheel is more efficient depends on what boost range you are talking about. The 6 blade wheel will perform better at low boost levels because of the larger exducer, the 8 blade wheel will perform better at high boost levels because of the more aggressive pitch.

They're still pushing me in favor of the hybrid. Whats your take, Matt?

 

[gixrman]

How is the H1E inefficient? Not saying your wrong but whats this guy base this on? Is this based on desiel performance? I can understand about the blade difference. I just had my H1C turbine housing machined to fit the H1E center section and will be pissed if this turns out to be junk.

 

[JWoodley]

How is the H1E inefficient? Not saying your wrong but whats this guy base this on? Is this based on desiel performance? I can understand about the blade difference. I just had my H1C turbine housing machined to fit the H1E center section and will be pissed if this turns out to be junk.

I'm not sure which is right or wrong. I mean it could be like machining a MHI turbo for a larger wheel. He might have been trying to say in fewer words that the new technology is alot more efficient than the designs of old, which is completely understandable. He also mentioned to me that the HX40 shaft is weaker.

There is somewhat of a gray area in regards to these turbos right now, just like Garrett a few years back. I'm trying to squeeze some flow maps out of them about the hybrid as well as HX40 61mm 6 blade.

 

[JWoodley]

Ok, I've finally dug up some productive information:

"The dodgezilla comes with a 60.5mm compressor wheel, this is the same wheel that is commonly called a 61mm or even 62mm hx40 wheel.
The dodgezilla flows about 925cfm while the largest hx35 that was put on the dodge trucks flows 795ish cfm. I have attached the 2 compressor maps for you to compare."

HX35 Map
http://www.citydiesel.net/mb/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=20.0;id=6;image

Dodgezilla Map
http://www.citydiesel.net/mb/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=20.0;id=7;image

 

[dsm-onster]

I question those maps because they are not from a holset tech nor do they have a title or heading. That hx35 map looks nothing like the hx35 map given out by the cummins engineer who talked to morphius:

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The green is the pre-2003 hx35 compressor map.

I don't question the shop. I question the data. Something MUST be questioned, because, yet again, the maps don't jive. Which map is right?

 

[dsm-onster]

I was talking with City Diesal and they said the:

"The H1E is obsolete and replaced by the HX40. The H1E and HX40 are completely different turbos and are not part interchangeable. We can build an HX40 with any wheel you want, we stock the 61mm 6 blade wheel, and the 61mm 8 blade wheel. (you want the HX40 instead of an H1E. The H1E is old inefficient technology).

Which wheel is more efficient depends on what boost range you are talking about. The 6 blade wheel will perform better at low boost levels because of the larger exducer, the 8 blade wheel will perform better at high boost levels because of the more aggressive pitch.

They're still pushing me in favor of the hybrid. Whats your take, Matt?

They are probably meaning that the h1e is obsolete like the 60-1 is obsolete . It's still an a$$ kicking compressor. . . We'll never know until someone runs an h1e. Is it *just* less efficient or does it flow significantly less? Which end flows less? What happens when you push it? Is it prone to failure? There's lots of things that can be re engineered. But, the wheels themselves could still be quite capable. . .

I like the hx35/40 hybrid. . . It has the best of both number families: the big shaft of the 35s, the big compressor of the 40s, and the big turbine wheel of the 35s. I'd run the hx35 12cm^2 turbine housing, since they have been proven not to be that laggy. The hx35 turbine is close to the size of a t3 stage V in flow. If you are having a hard time reaching the maximum flow of the hx40 compressor, then you could do a minor clip on the hx35 turbine instead of going straight hx40.

Although, you can get a hx40 w/ the big compressor, run the BEP housing, and have semi-bolt-on 600whp turbo w/ no question. And have relatively quick spool to boot!!!

Compressor exducer diameter is a MUCH more significant determinant of compressor efficiency then blade pitch. What are the exducer diameters of the three hx40 compressors is the question. If those diameters are all realtively close then I can see pitch being a good arguement for higher efficiency. Regardless, I wouldn't bother w/ the 8 blade wheel at ALL. The hx/hy35 comprssors are VERY efficient at over 35psi and flow the same or more, considering the 3 hx40 maps we've seen. Why waste your money building a hybrid if you choose that wheel? But, using the 7blade or 6 blade in an hx35/40 hybrid makes good sense to me

Does this shop have any hy35 compressor maps?

 

[Morphius]

I question those maps because they are not from a holset tech nor do they have a title or heading. That hx35 map looks nothing like the hx35 map given out by the cummins engineer who talked to morphius:


I don't question the shop. I question the data. Something MUST be questioned, because, yet again, the maps don't jive. Which map is right?

Well, to the best of my knowledge, mine are correct. The data I received from my cummins source was actual data tabulated in a MS excel, with plots in the spreadsheet based on the data. However, it was in units, that I don't even think anyone here could convert ( I went through every engineering book I have and couldn't come up with a conversion) . He gave me an 'approximate' conversion number to equate it to CFM.

I created another spreadsheet, based on the original, with the flow converted. I also compiled the three different year models into one plot, as you see above.

So, long story short, my posts are approximately correct, based on their data with their suggested conversion. I haven't studied the other maps, but if there is a difference, they likely won't match up exactly....... if you comprehend what I stated above.

On another note, I figured that if I posted in understandable units (for the large part of the community), that it wouldn't be their plots. It an 'interpretation' of sorts. I was never told I should/shouldn't share the data. Hind sight, it likely falls under the unspoken confidentiallity that should be upheld between supplier and car company. Too late now!!

 

[putinexim]

I just finished installing my big H1E with the 67mm exhaust wheel and 6blade compressor and its badASS. Of course it is on a 7bolt 2.5L . I am having trouble with an 02 sensor so I am unable to give exact numbers but it starts spooling AROUND 2500 and nearly full boost a a shy over 3000 . When I had the T25 on right after my motor build it was full boost from idle .

Any questions, bring them my way.

 

[sweet97]

Haven't had my Talon in a year and a half but I follow this thread. I was running the BEP HX35/40. After the motor overheated and I parted the car I was told my TEAMrip transmission was for a 2g and I had a '93! Jon said "No wonder Mark had so much trouble shifting"! Besides that all I was tuning with was a translator and DSMchip. Wideband of course. Ran 30psi and that motor had Crower Stage 4's and a JM Fab SMIM. Made real power at 600rpm's and shifted at 8500rpm. 1.68 60' on streets(AWD). 11.68 @ 122. With the correct tranny and DSMlink and a Pro tune I blieve a 10.99 was possible. This is with the small BEP hotside! Mark

 

[gixrman]

I just finished installing my big H1E with the 67mm exhaust wheel and 6blade compressor and its badASS.

What turbine housing are you running??? A couple of posts up you can see the setup I will be running simply for better spoolup.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well, to the best of my knowledge, mine are correct. The data I received from my cummins source was actual data tabulated in a MS excel, with plots in the spreadsheet based on the data. However, it was in units, that I don't even think anyone here could convert ( I went through every engineering book I have and couldn't come up with a conversion) . He gave me an 'approximate' conversion number to equate it to CFM.

I created another spreadsheet, based on the original, with the flow converted. I also compiled the three different year models into one plot, as you see above.

So, long story short, my posts are approximately correct, based on their data with their suggested conversion. I haven't studied the other maps, but if there is a difference, they likely won't match up exactly....... if you comprehend what I stated above.

On another note, I figured that if I posted in understandable units (for the large part of the community), that it wouldn't be their plots. It an 'interpretation' of sorts. I was never told I should/shouldn't share the data. Hind sight, it likely falls under the unspoken confidentiallity that should be upheld between supplier and car company. Too late now!!

Thanx for chiming in here. With what units were you extrapolating the graph plots?

 

[thekellbeast]

I just finished installing my big H1E with the 67mm exhaust wheel and 6blade compressor and its badASS. Of course it is on a 7bolt 2.5L . I am having trouble with an 02 sensor so I am unable to give exact numbers but it starts spooling AROUND 2500 and nearly full boost a a shy over 3000 . When I had the T25 on right after my motor build it was full boost from idle .

Any questions, bring them my way.

2.5L??? I'd like to hear more about that setup.WTF

 

[dsm-onster]

Yea, why couldn't he wait to put on a larger turbo?!!! what's the point?

 

[TimG]

I finally sorted out my knocking issue with a MAF cleaning. So I went to the track (North of the Boarder DSM Shootout). The night before I dropped in my dodge-mod 1G BOV, my M12 meth injection nozzle and took out my GM MAF's honeycombs. With those mods done, I was able to run 3 more degrees of timing throughout the powerband (probably more).

I am still running STUPID rich and can definitely put more timing into the tuning so this track time is far from what the car can actually do. With the sun out, I could barely read my laptop anymore so I stopped tuning and I just raced the thing all the way into the finals.

My best time was an 11.60@121MPH in the semi-finals. The part that scares me is that this turbo has a lot more juice in it. I was running 26psi with 94 octance, a rich tune and a conservative timing curve. We'll see how she does once I really tune her up. There's a link to my timeslip in my profile.