Holset Turbos, PART 2

[aero_sallee]

I don't know if I'd bother. Since we already have a compressor map for it from a cummins engineer (in the red):



But don't let me discourage you. I'm just lending some cautionary pointers.

I appreciate the constructive criticism. Much of the reason I want to do it is just to experiment. The compressor isn't much bigger, which is fine with me at this point. I,m looking at it as a way to keep bullseye housing type spool, without the big topend losses. From my sources the HE431V hotside is adjustable from 9-29cm2.

Even if you don't use it with the proper control to avoid using a wastegate, which would require a pretty extensive computer control. If you simply had a 2-3 position actuator that could be used to keep it down at 9cm2 until a certian boost was achieved, then a higher setting 18cm or whatever was found to be appropriate to minimize required wastegate flow. Then use a normal external gate to actually keep the boost where you wanted it. A 9Cm2 housing shouldn't spool too fast to create large surge issues, and you can always place a stop at the lower limit to raise the minimum size.

By using the external gate also it would eliminate the failures from overspeeding the turbine that some experimenters have experienced when their control systems don't respond quickly enough.


If the kinks were worked out it could very well be like swapping to a much less restrictive TH mid run. Somthing like this could do wonders for trying to avoid knock threshold on a given compressor on pump gas. As well as maximizing VE by eliminating back pressure.

 

[dsm-onster]

I appreciate the constructive criticism. Much of the reason I want to do it is just to experiment. The compressor isn't much bigger, which is fine with me at this point. I,m looking at it as a way to keep bullseye housing type spool, without the big topend losses. From my sources the HE431V hotside is adjustable from 9-29cm2.

Even if you don't use it with the proper control to avoid using a wastegate, which would require a pretty extensive computer control. If you simply had a 2-3 position actuator that could be used to keep it down at 9cm2 until a certian boost was achieved, then a higher setting 18cm or whatever was found to be appropriate to minimize required wastegate flow. Then use a normal external gate to actually keep the boost where you wanted it. A 9Cm2 housing shouldn't spool too fast to create large surge issues, and you can always place a stop at the lower limit to raise the minimum size.

By using the external gate also it would eliminate the failures from overspeeding the turbine that some experimenters have experienced when their control systems don't respond quickly enough.


If the kinks were worked out it could very well be like swapping to a much less restrictive TH mid run. Somthing like this could do wonders for trying to avoid knock threshold on a given compressor on pump gas. As well as maximizing VE by eliminating back pressure.

This is why I did not want to discourage you . The VGT is VERY useful for other erasons other than just spool, IMHO. It would be nice to be able to cut the VGT to fit a larger hx40 turbine wheel. This VGT tech would be hands down AWESOME! for a 55+ lb/min turbo.

Having the the VGT controlled by a boost/vacuum line would mean that controling the points the VGT actuator sees the reference. I'd like to think the nitrous controls on dsmlink can be used. Couple this w/ a hobbs switch or 2 from NAPA, and two or three vacuum solenoids from the JY, I see this being VERY doable!!!

In fact, you can use just a normally closed relay and two solenoids and 2 hobbs switches and get 3 VGT settings. No boost reference, low boost reference, high boost reference.

An interesting thing to look at would be how gas mileage would be affected if the VGT is wide open during vacuum (cruise and zero-boost throttle).

 

[DuncanG]

I,m looking at it as a way to keep bullseye housing type spool, without the big topend losses. From my sources the HE431V hotside is adjustable from 9-29cm2.

Even if you don't use it with the proper control to avoid using a wastegate, which would require a pretty extensive computer control..... A 9Cm2 housing shouldn't spool too fast to create large surge issues, and you can always place a stop at the lower limit to raise the minimum size.

By using the external gate also it would eliminate the failures from overspeeding the turbine that some experimenters have experienced when their control systems don't respond quickly enough.

If the kinks were worked out it could very well be like swapping to a much less restrictive TH mid run. Somthing like this could do wonders for trying to avoid knock threshold on a given compressor on pump gas. As well as maximizing VE by eliminating back pressure.

An interesting thing to look at would be how gas mileage would be affected if the VGT is wide open during vacuum (cruise and zero-boost throttle).

The above pretty well summarises why I want to play with the VGT. The biggest drawback is its size and weight

The lower nozzle size of 9cm^2 is limited by the actuator installed - the actual VGT mechanism can go quite a bit tighter, but then surge could be a problem. I'm intending to use the VGT as the wastegate and don't foresee any great problems apart from either configuring a 45psi pressure source for the existing actuator or replacing that actuator with a large vacuum operated one; but maybe I'm missing something. It might help to reconfigure the actuator to provide some direct feedback of turbo pressure into the actuator, like on a conventional wastegate, rather than rely on a purely electronic control loop. Aero_ do you have any links to projects already using a VGT?

 

[aero_sallee]

The above pretty well summarises why I want to play with the VGT. The biggest drawback is its size and weight

The lower nozzle size of 9cm^2 is limited by the actuator installed - the actual VGT mechanism can go quite a bit tighter, but then surge could be a problem. I'm intending to use the VGT as the wastegate and don't foresee any great problems apart from either configuring a 45psi pressure source for the existing actuator or replacing that actuator with a large vacuum operated one; but maybe I'm missing something. It might help to reconfigure the actuator to provide some direct feedback of turbo pressure into the actuator, like on a conventional wastegate, rather than rely on a purely electronic control loop. Aero_ do you have any links to projects already using a VGT?

I do not have any links very few try and use them. Everyone uses the more common Garrett VNTs to experiment with. I wish I had the link to the guy I am thinking of. He was using a VGT on a 5.9 cummins. If I remember right he was using a vacuum/pressure actuator. He said he had grenaded two of them. Said it didn't react fast enough. That is the reason that I came up with using the external gate to protect the turbo and help regulate things.

Electronic control would be able to eliminate the need for the wastegate and would be ideal to maximize efficiency, but I'm not convinced that a simple mechanical/pneumatic system can achieve it.

 

[DuncanG]

Well I got a reply from Cummins-Turbo (Holset) about the temp & pressure correction -

Flow rates are corrected to ambient temp and pressure, so 288K and 0.1013MPa.
Compressor maps are not available for general release due to issues with confidentiality.


Therefore 0.53kg/s equates to 66lb/in in Garrett flow terms, so for the '431 compressor map above the max flow @ PR=3 would appear to be 63lb/in.

 

[dsm-onster]

So 58.73º F and 1 atm (or 14.67 lb/in^2 absolute). Well, most manufacturers use 20º C (68º F).

These numbers in NO WAY give a corresponding mass flow from the compressor maps we have for ALLof theother turbos. NO comressor map for ANY hx__ turbo show a mass flow equal to the mass flow mentioned on the corresponding holset website. Either the all Holset websites are wrong, or all the compressor maps are wrong. OR the holset websites are stateing the mass flow of their turbines and not compressors. Being as it is these turbos are designed for diesels and the richer the diese the better it "pulls", it's possible that the holset websites are mentioning the flow of the hx__ turbine and housing, not compressor. Since several compressors have been used for each hx__ number then there can be no ONE compressor flow number.

There's a reason why no one has ever gotten an HX35 to flow like a 60-1. Yet, the holset site suggests that a HX35 compressor can flow 60 lbs/min. It has never been done w/ that compressor. But it has been done on that turbine (hx35/40 hybrids)

 

[AK1RA07]

Alright, I tried reading through all these pages.. is it ok to run the oil feel off the head? I know its a journal bearing turbo, so thats ok.. but do you need a reducer? I have a SS line but I dont have any fittings for it to connect to the head, only the turbo.. does anyone know what kind of fitting I need to screw into the head and then connect the AN line to it?

 

[dsm-onster]

Straight from the Holset HX series service manual:

"The minimum oil pressure when the engine is on load must be 210 kPa (30 lbf/in2). Maximum permissible operating pressure is 500 kPa (72 lbf/in^2) although 600 kPa (88 lbf/in^2) is permitted during cold start up. Under idling conditions pressure should not fall below 70 kPa (10 lbf/in^2)."​

30-70 psi. If you DONNOT have your balance shafts removed then it looks like running it from the oil filter housing is ok, btu a little on the maximum side (60-75). Running it from the head could be fine, but a little on the minimum side as oil pressures from the head bounce from 30-40 psi at full tilt. But, it has been reported that pressure can be as low as 2 psi at idle. Definately not enough per the Holset manual for idle pressure. I say get an oil pressure gauge run it from the oil filter housing and use a properly sized restrictor to get the oil pressure right. These turbos are cheap. It surely can be budgeted.

The manual I have shows three different oil inlet configurations. I say take the turbo to the hardware store and test fit. It will give the contractors something to laugh about.

 

[AK1RA07]

Yea, I went to home depot yesterday and the guys just kinda did the routine. They suggested an auto parts store. So If I DO have balance shafts removed.. will this create more oil pressure?

 

[dsm-onster]

Oodles more oil pressure. Run a restrictor if you have the BSs removed.

P.S. here's an install kit: Do-It Yourself Holset Kit. And here is an Oil Feed Kit.

 

[AK1RA07]

Balance shafts are removed as far as I know..

Oodley enough to run off the head? I bought the whole setup used so I already have the SS -4AN (I think, with 2 female ends) line, just no fittings to connect to the head/oil filter. It does have a fitting on the turbo, but it does not look like it is restricted. I don't feel like spending the 80$ on a whole new kit when the fitting I need is only 10$ or so. I did find this, if I recall it is the size of the threads on the head..

361-9919BFC
-4AN to 10mm x 1.25 Adapter
$13.99 @ jegs.com

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[dsm-onster]

Balance shafts are removed as far as I know..

Oodley enough to run off the head? I bought the whole setup used so I already have the SS -4AN (I think, with 2 female ends) line, just no fittings to connect to the head/oil filter. It does have a fitting on the turbo, but it does not look like it is restricted. I don't feel like spending the 80$ on a whole new kit when the fitting I need is only 10$ or so. I did find this, if I recall it is the size of the threads on the head..

361-9919BFC
-4AN to 10mm x 1.25 Adapter
$13.99 @ jegs.com

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I've never adapted ss lines from the head to any turbo, but you should be ok to run off of the head w/ no restrictor. The pressure should be fine. I don't know what size/pitch thread needed.

BUT, I will say, feeding the turbo from the oil filter housing will deliver cooler and MUCH cleaner oil to the turbo. Feeding from the head is where the oil is it's dirtiest. I would use the oil filter housing and run a 0.065-0.078 restrictor (1/16 to 5/64). This will bring pressures down below 70 psi for sure! Being that holsets seem to like similar pressures as MHIs or Garretts, this will still be plenty for the turbo considering that the holset manual mentions a minimum of 30 psi under load.

 

[AK1RA07]

Ok, so if I were to run off the oil filter, do you know where that connects to on the oil filter? I assume that reducer threads into the turbo, then Id need a NPT -> AN adapter to fit the line.. but I'm not sure where the other end goes to. It looks like there was a picture posted in this thread but it has now disappeared

 

[dsm-onster]

RRE Turbo Oil Supply Line Instructions

That should help.

 

[AK1RA07]

Do you know if these turbos are similar to the Garretts or PTE's? This would be a better restrictor rather than the NPT flanged one

http://www.extremepsi.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=18920&cat=1007&page=1

http://www.slowboyracing.com/estore/product.php?productid=2287&cat=1291&page=1

 

[IPT]

Do you know if these turbos are similar to the Garretts or PTE's? This would be a better restrictor rather than the NPT flanged one

http://www.extremepsi.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=18920&cat=1007&page=1

http://www.slowboyracing.com/estore/product.php?productid=2287&cat=1291&page=1

Sorry but neither one of those will fit a Holset.

 

[gixrman]

I'm trying to get this straight:
So far from what I've read the hot setup is the hx40 compressor wheel and housing on a hx35 CHRA and I assume a hx35 turbine wheel. waht I've also read on another forum is that a hx35 CHRA can be made to fit a GARRETT turbine housing with a little machining. I guess this is done to change the A/R. Has anyone heard of this?

What I want to do is run a T4 divided flange w/external waste gate

 

[dsm-onster]

At least one volvo guy has done this. Go to turbobricks.com and search around. Likely you'll get better results there.

This is the comparison pic I posted on the previous page. thi sright is an hx40 w/ a garrett t4 turbine housing:

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The right is a holset hx40 w/ a t4 .84 turbine housing. . . That housing doesn't seam all too much larger than the stock hx40 turbine housing on the left. Considering the stock hx40 housing is divided, that could account for the difference in total diameter to some extent. And, accepting speculation as the only predecessor to discovery , i'll mention that the stock hx40 comes w/ a divided housing t4 flange.

Nevertheless, it has been done and asking the volvo guys is a start.

 

[gixrman]

thanks, I was hoping you were going to reply. I been reading up on the holsets the last couple of days and the variations on this turbo have kept my head spinning. Yea turbobricks.com has some good info. I learned that the HX35, H1C, HW1C all came with 5 different turbine housings 12cm,14cm, 16cm, 18.5, and a huge 21cm. Fromwhat I've read the 12cm would be the best for our 2 litter in the divided housing. What do you think?

 

[dsm-onster]

Well, I will be attempting to street a 12 cm^2 housing (stock hx35). I know of no DSM running one. Since so many are used to hearing about / running a 7cm ^2 housing, I think we're a little intimidated by the double digit number.

Turboford, volvo, AND Honda grind down a bout an inch and smooth out the turbine housing divider. This is so they can run stock single entry t3 flanges. The only way to take advantage of the twin volutes is to source a divided t3 flanged manifold w/ a 4g63 exhaust mani flange. Or fab your own coupling 1 & 4, and 2 & 3 exhaust runners.

 

[aero_sallee]

thanks, I was hoping you were going to reply. I been reading up on the holsets the last couple of days and the variations on this turbo have kept my head spinning. Yea turbobricks.com has some good info. I learned that the HX35, H1C, HW1C all came with 5 different turbine housings 12cm,14cm, 16cm, 18.5, and a huge 21cm. Fromwhat I've read the 12cm would be the best for our 2 litter in the divided housing. What do you think?

The 12cm would be the best option to experiment with since it comes on every HX35 off the 94+ 5.9 Cummins. The 14cm and 16cm are quite a bit more rare and much more expensive to pick up on ebay. They are the two the Cummins guys want to upgrade to most of the time and will easily go for 150+ just by themselves. The 18.5 and 21 are also common since they came on the 90-93 5.9 cummins, but I think they are way too big.

 

[AK1RA07]

Found this if anyone else is having oil restrictor issues..

http://www.stealthmodeperformance.com/oil-res.shtml

 

[gixrman]

The only way to take advantage of the twin volutes is to source a divided t3 flanged manifold w/ a 4g63 exhaust mani flange. Or fab your own coupling 1 & 4, and 2 & 3 exhaust runners.

Thats what I was thinking about doing. So far every HX35 i've come across has been a wastgated version (I want the v-band) or with the larger turbine housing. The 12cm ones are not common on fleabay. I can source one from High Tech Turbo for $175 but why do that when I can hopfully find one, and the only thing i'll have to switch out is the compressor wheel and cover from a HX40.

 

[dsm-onster]

Thats what I was thinking about doing. So far every HX35 i've come across has been a wastgated version (I want the v-band) or with the larger turbine housing. The 12cm ones are not common on fleabay. I can source one from High Tech Turbo for $175 but why do that when I can hopfully find one, and the only thing i'll have to switch out is the compressor wheel and cover from a HX40.

Not common? ALL 1994-2002 manual cummins are 12 cm^2 and internally gated. The official label for these turbos is HX35W. "W" stands for wastegated. I've seen lots go on ebay. Keep looking. You'll get a slew of them every season at the least. I don't recommend the internal gate. It's not big enough

So you want an HX35/40 hybrid . Keep us posted. Nice to see someone else brave enough to do the logical. I will be running the hx35 w/ the stock housing and divided t3 manifold. I will also be exploring a little discovery I've found w/ these turbos (not telling yet ). I want to incorporate my twin charger research into all of this. So I'll be definately be able to ring out these tubos for all their worth.

EDIT: Wait! Are you suggesting that the "v-band hx35" or the one w/ the larger housing is one that can swap hx40 comprssor parts w/out machining?

 

[aero_sallee]

I will be running the hx35 w/ the stock housing and divided t3 manifold. I will also be exploring a little discovery I've found w/ these turbos (not telling yet ).

You dirty bastard do tell.