Holset Turbos, PART 2

[dsm-onster]

Not sure if has been posted here yet, but found a few more Holset Maps HERE.

Also found these Tech Guides for the following Holset Models:

H Models
HE Models
HX Models
Pre-H Models
VG models

Not sure if anyone's seen this new SS Housing from High Tech Turbo, but looks not to be BEP (don't think they even support Holsets since going with the BW) though is in rather large 13cm (1.0ish) and 16cm (1.2ish) A/Rs

Do you ahve a Link to those turbine housings? All I'm seeing are 12 14 and 16 cm housings here

12cm would not be that bad. . . Too bad it's divided. Makes things a little more dificult.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Those housings are OEM Holset replacements. The new ones are cast from stainless and are shown HERE.

I'm sure they would also be a good source for inquiry on other options, I just happened on that site looking for MAPs on the HX40 (which I did not find).

 

[dsm-onster]

Those housings are OEM Holset replacements. The new ones are cast from stainless and are shown HERE.

I'm sure they would also be a good source for inquiry on other options, I just happened on that site looking for MAPs on the HX40 (which I did not find).

HX-40 maps are on page 5 of this very thread . There are 3 maps there and I know of 3 hx40 compressor wheels. So I am supposing the 8 blade is the first map, the 7blade is the second, and the 6 blade is the third. Again, it seams that the 7blade flows nearly as much as the 6 blade "pro".

Thanx for the link. It sounds like those housings are twin scroll (dual ports), though. it talks about enlarged *dual* wastegate ports. It refers to volutes, not a single volute.

The stock 9cm hy35 sounds very interesting. . .

 

[dsm-onster]

Backing up a bit to my original question. The 65mm hy35 turbine wheel I'm asking about is quoted from the first page of the first holset thread here. Is this the major diameter? Does anyone know exducer diameter or know how to source the exducer diameter of this turbine? or all of these holset turbines would be even better. I'm asking because you can get a used hy35 w/ the 9cm single port turbine housing. This is a housing I'd be interested in.

65mm = 2.56 inches. A t3 stage 3 has a major diameter of 2.56 inches. But so does the t3 stage2 . The difference are the exducer diameters (probably the blade angle too). As long as the turbines don't have drastically more sharp angled blades then knowing the diameters would help us get an educated estimate of the flow capabilities comparing the the garrett turbonetics turbines.

Also, depending on the angle and area of the blades, these turbines might respond to a proper clip. Being that there seams not to be many holset turbine choices out there, this may be an option to help get a holset to do what you want it to for your setup. Being that these turbos are still so affordable used, adding a $75 clip won't break the bank.

Also, I'll bet there's more than one shop that can cut a 9cm single volute housing to fit a larger holset turbine wheel.

 

[aero_sallee]

Also, I'll bet there's more than one shop that can cut a 9cm single volute housing to fit a larger holset turbine wheel.

If you are thinking about using the Hy 9cm housing on another center section there is a problem. The HY uses a vband to attach the hotside instead of the Garrett style bolt down plates like the Hx35 and 40. That would be the tough nut to crack I think.

 

[dsm-onster]

According to BEP there have been bolton turbine housing HY's. But if the only 9cm^2 turbine housing HY35s only came w/ vband housing's then that's a turd in my cheerios.

 

[aero_sallee]

According to BEP there have been bolton turbine housing HY's. But if the only 9cm^2 turbine housing HY35s only came w/ vband housing's then that's a turd in my cheerios.

Browsing ebay today I saw this 6 bladed Hx40w. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...RK:MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=260141730072&rd=1,1


Starting price is steep, it might not sell and be relisted at a lower starting price. Regardless, it looks to be in excellent shape.

 

[dsm-onster]

Browsing ebay today I saw this 6 bladed Hx40w. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...RK:MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=260141730072&rd=1,1


Starting price is steep, it might not sell and be relisted at a lower starting price. Regardless, it looks to be in excellent shape.

Haho-yea. I already saw that. Believe me, I'll be keeping an eye on it. . .

 

[dsm-onster]

I think we've been caught up in the numbers and not taking into account that Garrett, the guys at fp, and every professional turbo builder tells us that a/r or cm^2 dimensions are specific to housing styles.

Here's some info I've gathered specifically about Holset turbine housings. The first is VERY interesting. You see. Turboford guys have been bolting on the hx35s, h1Cs, hy35s (9-12 cm^2) turbine housings directly to their manifolds for years. they get full boost by 3500rpms (their stock t3s get boost about the same time as our 14b does in stock trim. They have 2.3L engines but their head flows VERY, VERY poorly. They move about as much air peak as a 4g63 does at 6000rpms.

Turboford.net Topic: Holset exhaust housings cm discussion. The first poster of this thread did some calling around and the diesel shps are saying that the a/r number is nowhere to what we've been guessing they are.

So I think we're shooting our selves in the foot when swapping in the BEP housing if we're going to run an hx35. I feel we'd be better off getting an affordable t3 tubular and then open up ourselves to using the divided housing and hy turbos. I feel that an hx40 perhaps needs a smaller turbine housing.

A Volvo guy actually machined a t4 housing to accommodate the hx40. . .

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Considering the size of the holset 17cm^2 housing against a t4 .84 a/r housing, I can't help but suspect that the holset cm^2 numbers shouldn't be really compared to MHI cm^2 numbers.

The housings have to be large enough to accommodate the turbine, anyway. So, that means that "R" of the A/R for the holsets is much bigger. To me, this scrambles up any a/r comparison or cm^2 comparison.

 

[dsm-onster]

We just need to know how much the turbine wheels flow and w/ what turbine housing (like the Garrett GT turbo catalog). But, thanks to joeracer321, we have the inducer and exducer diameters of the hx35 and hx40 turbines. The hx35 turbine inducer is almost the same as a t3 stageIV w/ the exducer being right in the middle of the t3 stageIII and the t3 stageIV. And the hx40 is nearly the same as the p-trim for both diameters.

I know estimating flow potential w/ just the inducer/exducer diameters is speculation, so does anyone have or can get comparison side shots of either turbine vs. a well known turbine. Like a t3 stage3. Then we can get a view of the angle of the blades vs. something we know. All t-netics turbines are 10-bladed. The hx40 is 12-bladed. These extra blades will certainly aid in spool and take away flow unless knowing the general angle difference. I see other differences from the pics I have.

And looking at what joeracer321 provided we can get a bit more insight on the hx40 compressors. The hx40 compressor maps show no where near the compressor flow guys are claiming is possible w/ even the 6-blade "pro". It's max flow is much more in line w/ the flow potential of a 60-1 compressor. The inducer diameter is a hair bigger than a 60-1. The inducer diameter as a large effect on flow potential. It has an exducer larger than the 60-1 and all the to4E (pump gas friendly) compressors. A larger inducer is indicative of high efficiency at high boost. It's a good compressor and looks to perform much like the 60-1. But, no way about the 70+ lbs/min.

Guys are also saying that the hx35w compressor flows like a 60-1 and they are wondering why they're falling on their face at 50trim power levels (not just us but also the turboford guys, as well). Looking at the hx35 map, you see a limit of about 700cfm, right at where a 50trim maxes out.

There's other info I'm checking and confirming before I'll ask what you all think. I'm DEFINATELY getting a holset to replace the 60-1 I just blew.

 

[dsm-onster]

There was some debate in the hybridZ thread provided by DSM90AWD on whether or not those hy35 maps posted up are mislabeled.

Here's a turbobricks.com thread showing one of those maps as being an hx35 map instead. This map is VERY close to the same as the hx35 map provided on the very first page of the first holset thread, when you consider the psia and inlet temp correction. So I think this confirms that this is infact the hx35 map not an hy35 since those maps come from a cummins engineer.

Here's the map. It looks like 50-trim on steroids but not nearly the flow of a 60-1:

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The "other" hy35 map from that hybridZ thread looks nearly identical to the 2004.5-present hy35 map provided on the first page of the first holset thread, considering being corrected to 85* F and 14.425 psia. So I think this confirms that we have good compressor maps for the 2004.5-present hy35. Note, that compressor flows way more than the hx35.

Also, note that the first page of the first holset thread shows the 2003-2004 hy35 out flowing both (880 cfm) and MUCH more efficient at high boost. However, it looks to be much more prone to surge. And, doesn't the hy35 have a smaller turbine wheel?

 

[blue1]

sorry posted in holset no 3 (twice by mistake)
6 cm2 = 0.41 A/R
7 cm2 = 0.49 A/R
8 cm2 = 0.57 A/R
9 cm2 = 0.65 A/R
10 cm2 = 0.73 A/R
11 cm2 = 0.81 A/R
12 cm2 = 0.89 A/R
16 cm2 = 1.15 A/R

 

[aero_sallee]

sorry posted in holset no 3 (twice by mistake)
6 cm2 = 0.41 A/R
7 cm2 = 0.49 A/R
8 cm2 = 0.57 A/R
9 cm2 = 0.65 A/R
10 cm2 = 0.73 A/R
11 cm2 = 0.81 A/R
12 cm2 = 0.89 A/R
16 cm2 = 1.15 A/R

With which turbine wheel? I'm guessing that is an Hx35 wheel then? With changes in turbine wheel diameter the a/r ratio changes.

 

[dsm-onster]

sorry posted in holset no 3 (twice by mistake)
6 cm2 = 0.41 A/R
7 cm2 = 0.49 A/R
8 cm2 = 0.57 A/R
9 cm2 = 0.65 A/R
10 cm2 = 0.73 A/R
11 cm2 = 0.81 A/R
12 cm2 = 0.89 A/R
16 cm2 = 1.15 A/R

Yea that chart is found here and here. This is for MHI housings. I'm disputing the numbers for a holset housing. Those work out for an MHI turbine housing. But Holset inlets may be different. Also, as I mentioned, there is more radius in the tubine housings so, this will monkey w/ the figures.

What I'm saying is that it is possible that a 12 cm^2 turbine housing from holset wcould flow like a .63 a/r turbine housing from garrett. Or it could flow like an 8 cm^2 turbine housing from MHI, given the same turbine wheel. Considering the spool times ford 2.3 turbos are getting w/ stock 12 cm^2 holset housings, this can be a logical conclusion.

 

[DuncanG]

HX-40 maps are on page 5 of this very thread . There are 3 maps there and I know of 3 hx40 compressor wheels. So I am supposing the 8 blade is the first map, the 7blade is the second, and the 6 blade is the third. Again, it seams that the 7blade flows nearly as much as the 6 blade "pro".

The corrected lb/min flow rates on these charts are surprisingly low (45-57). I thought the HX40 flowed 60+. The HX40 is often quoted as having a flow rate of 0.53kg/sec which would be 70lb/min at the same temp and pressure. Does anyone know what temp and pressure pertains to the Holset 0.53kg/sec flow rate?

 

[dsm-onster]

You're saying what I wouldn't . The holset webpages surely look to be a bit exaggerated where it comes to flow ratings (zero degrees celcius and 1 atm is not enough to yield those kg/sec numbers). Considerign that diesels pushout alot of mass throught the tailpipe, is it likely that those are max turbines flows? ???

At least we have compressor maps now.

Also one of the maps on that hybridZ thread I found but WITH the title. It's an HX30E not an HY35. So it likes like we have another compressor option for over 55 lbs/min.

 

[DuncanG]

So an HX30 can outflow an HX40? Man, I'm confused WTF

 

[dsm-onster]

The HX30 compressor looks to flow just as much as the big hx40 compressor. The HX40 name defines the turbine not the compressor. It's like "GT35". The HX30 could very well have quite a small turbine compaired to the HX40.

Interesting holset thread: http://vgpowered.informe.com/holset-compressor-maps-dt138.html

 

[dsm-onster]

Heres an H2C compressor map:

 

[DuncanG]

This document - http://w3.wtb.tue.nl/fileadmin/wtb/ct-pdfs/Master_Theses/verslag_230306 hans snijders.pdf contains the compressor map for the HE431VTG
which is the turbo I'm going to have a play with.

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Looks good for 0.5kg/s, or 63lb/min at 2bar boost when adjusted to the same temp & pressure that Garrett use.

 

[dsm-onster]

Looks good for 0.5kg/s or 66lb/min at 2bar boost.

Take any holset proclaimed massflow w/ a grain of salt. Although that paper's feature of the compressor speed map does indeed show a similar rpm of the (kg/sec)*(K^0.5)/kPa unit w/ that 0.5 kg/sec number for the compressor flow map. And, this (kg/sec)*(K^0.5)/kPa unit does correspond to 65 or so lbs/min using the published holset maps as a conversion. Nevertheless, I still didn't see a temp or a pressure measure for the inlet w/ that compressor map.

Is that the VTG unit for the newer (2004.5-present) cummins powered trucks?

 

[DuncanG]

I've asked Cummins/Holset what temp & pressure they use but I'm not hopeful of a (useful) response.

Not sure what its off, but it is new-ish.

 

[Maglin]

The VTG is the new offering on the Dodge Cummins. It's the variable turbine turbine that is actuated by vacuum I do believe in the earlier flavors and for 2008 should be actuated electronically.

I just sold my BEP housing HX35 to my buddy. Built a 6 bolt for it. Forged bottom end 8.3:1 CR and HKS 280 cams. The damn thing still reaches 30 PSI @ 3900 RPMS. It's on a tubler DNP manifold w/ 38mm Tial. At 15 PSI it's still crazy fast and with a SSAC FMIC gets inlet temps of 42*C on a 98* day. At 26 PSI it is still spooling @ 3800 and getting 43*C inlet air temps. I'm chalking that one up to being latter in the morning and the fact that it got a few *F hotter outside. Being the motor only had 40 miles on it we didn't want to turn it over 26 PSI for a month or so to let the rings fully seat. The 30 PSI run was an issue with our compressor elbow. Whoever I got the turbo from long ago had actually put a very very small restricter in the W/G nipple to increase their boost. And was done well enough that I didn't notice it on inspection. So that was why I was only able to run 28 PSI as a minimum on it. I've ridden in cars with 60-1's and GT35R's. I would have to say that it's more on par with the GT35R except that it's spooling to early. The motor was built for a 9500 RPM redline and probably going to shift around 9K. Again it's hard to really compare turbo's on different cars with different people's tuning. The ignition table plays a large part in spool and could be part of mine spooling so fast. I'm hoping to get this on a dyno by summers end with it running around 32ish PSI for dyno number purposes. FYI at 26 PSI (actually it's 25.5 according to all my logs with a slight .5 PSI spike) I'm only running 16* advance @ 5.5K going to 18* @ 7K and 21* @ 9K. Haven't had the chance to take it over 7.5K due to speed. 2nd pulls are almost useless and in 3rd we are going over 80 MPH in 3rd @ 7.5K. And this is all on 91 pump gas with a MegaSquirt II controlling fuel and spark btw. Oh and on a very good side note. The car made a 200 mile trip and got 28.5 mpg on a very quick tune.

I believe that using the stock Holset housing is the wise thing to due. I would definitely run a T4 housing if you could on a HX40. I'm planning on running the HX52 with it's hugh TH on a top mount manifold. I personally want full spool around 7,500 RPMs so I'm thinking this might be good for me. The biggest thing that will hurt you with any large frame turbo is using stock cams. Get rid of those things.

As far as the HY35 it is a better turbo over the HX35. It flows slightly more but it's surge line is a little farther left of where the HX35 is. The old HxC series of turbo's are old and personally not worth even bothering with. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to spend like 5K on your powertrain and then run a $50 turbo that hits a wall on it's compressor map. I still believe the BEP housing are to small. On a stock motor they work well but on a built motor they are just kind of small and you loose top end. I'm hoping to have some good dyno numbers here in a few months of this HX35 on a built motor. It may or may not prove that point.

 

[aero_sallee]

This document - http://w3.wtb.tue.nl/fileadmin/wtb/ct-pdfs/Master_Theses/verslag_230306 hans snijders.pdf contains the compressor map for the HE431VTG
which is the turbo I'm going to have a play with.

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Looks good for 0.5kg/s or 66lb/min at 2bar boost.

I've been eyeing those turbo's thanks for the link.

 

[dsm-onster]

I don't know if I'd bother. Since we already have a compressor map for it from a cummins engineer (in the red):

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The hx35 compressor (green) flows around 700 cfm. This VGT flows around 780 w/ a surge line farther too the right. I don't think that 11% gain in flow is worth it to bother experimenting. I've been reading on the honda-tech thread about holsets (I'm on page 71 now). If 1.8 litre b-series are getting the hx35 in the stock turbine housing to spool to 20 psi by 4K or so, then the VGT would only provide a quick enough spool to cause surge, IMHO. Definately needa set of cams and a smim to take advantage of it, like maglin mentioned.

BTW, 780 cfm is most certainly not capable of equating to .5 kg/sec in the real world!!! It looks like holset is using VERY low test temps and probably sea level pressures, also. I think the holset product webpages are refering to the kg/sec the TURBINE can flow. Since there is only one flow number mentioned for each turbo and each turbo has been known to have several different compressor possibilities.

But don't let me discourage you. I'm just lending some cautionary pointers.