Holset Turbos, PART 2

[dsm-onster]

Just wait. I'm not the smartest SOB. So let me experiment first. I promise to post tech on this if anything works.

 

[TimG]

Well, I will be attempting to street a 12 cm^2 housing (stock hx35). I know of no DSM running one. Since so many are used to hearing about / running a 7cm ^2 housing, I think we're a little intimidated by the double digit number.

Turboford, volvo, AND Honda grind down a bout an inch and smooth out the turbine housing divider. This is so they can run stock single entry t3 flanges. The only way to take advantage of the twin volutes is to source a divided t3 flanged manifold w/ a 4g63 exhaust mani flange. Or fab your own coupling 1 & 4, and 2 & 3 exhaust runners.

You'd like to think you are a pioneer eh.

I've got the goods on this turbo and it's not so "cheap" to fabricate if you want to do it right. BUT, you say you have a little trick, I'm curious to see exactly what it is you speak of because this turbo is pretty basic.

Should I spill the beans on the turbo or not? Hmmmm....

 

[gixrman]

Not common? ALL 1994-2002 manual cummins are 12 cm^2 and internally gated. The official label for these turbos is HX35W. "W" stands for wastegated. I've seen lots go on ebay. Keep looking. You'll get a slew of them every season at the least. I don't recommend the internal gate. It's not big enough

So you want an HX35/40 hybrid . Keep us posted. Nice to see someone else brave enough to do the logical. I will be running the hx35 w/ the stock housing and divided t3 manifold. I will also be exploring a little discovery I've found w/ these turbos (not telling yet ). I want to incorporate my twin charger research into all of this. So I'll be definately be able to ring out these tubos for all their worth.

EDIT: Wait! Are you suggesting that the "v-band hx35" or the one w/ the larger housing is one that can swap hx40 comprssor parts w/out machining?

Yes I want a divided EXTERNAL GATED HX35 WITH A 12CM2 housing to do the HX35/40 hybrid. I'm more than likely going to build my own manifold so I can do the split 1,4 2,3 pulse into the turbine for better spool. And yes to be cost effective I want to stick with the holset housing rather than trying to cram it into a garrett housing.

The way i figured it out:
HX35 $200-400
HX40 Compressor housing and 60mm wheel upgrade http://www.htturbo.com/cu.htm for $275 (or find a HX40 someplace else)
$300-500 for material to build a manifold
$355 Tial 44mm wastegate

At a MAX price of $1530 for everything I'm close to the price just for a new FP3575($1475)

 

[aero_sallee]

Yes I want a divided EXTERNAL GATED HX35 WITH A 12CM2 housing to do the HX35/40 hybrid.

I think you may be stuck running a wastegated 12cm and just blocking it off or welding it shut. I can't say I've seen a housing that small without one since diesels never seem to run an external gate and the amount of boost even a 14cm housing will make on a diesel without a wg is kinda nuts. I can't really see it being that bad to black off, the WG hole on them is so tiny. It will probably be cheaper to get a gated one and blocking it, although not quite as clean if that is what you are going for.

 

[TimG]

The 12cm^2 housing without the gate hole exists. If anyone is thinking about buying one, PM me as I have a brand new non-gated exhaust housing. I know it's frowned upon but I'm just trying to help out. It'll cost exactly what I payed for it so I won't be making any profit what so everl.

 

[gixrman]

Just picked up a HX40 $400 brand new! Damn it now I have to buy more parts!

 

[want_a_gsx]

I have an internally gated original turbine housing from a new hx35w; it is in mint condition. I am willing to sell it to anyone that needs it, since I will be going with the BE housing. Not sure what size it is, but if someone can help me ID it, I will be more than happy to let yall know. emailing me at [email protected] would be best, since my pm's fill up quickly.

Just thought I would help someone who is trying to prove the greatness of this turbo...

^^^ That turbo is in GREAT condition, gixrman! ^^^

 

[SpeedAddict62]

Want a non-wastegated 12 cm housing new? Holset Turbine Housings. Go down the page about half-way, they sell both a "long" and "short" version for $175.

If it goes well, I will be picking up a HX35 tonight that came off a 99 auto, so it should have the divided 12 cm housing. I also plan to do what gixrman plans to do, run my own divided manifold with an external wastegate. A question though: How could you keep the runners seperated while using one wastegate? And does anyone know where to get the flange that will bolt up to a divided Holset housing, or would I need one custom made?

Gixrman, I'm very jealous of your $400 toy. You have to show me how to get deals like that.

 

[gixrman]

http://www.straightlinespecialties.com/ has CNC head flanges for $60 and t4 flages for 25. I was thinking about that also running the split flange and one wastegate I'll have to do some more research, I don't want to buy 2 WG's. Maybe something like this DNP manifold.

 

[gixrman]

Want a non-wastegated 12 cm housing new? Holset Turbine Housings. Go down the page about half-way, they sell both a "long" and "short" version for $175.

I emailed them yesterday about that they said it will not work on a hx40

I may just go this route too http://www.timsturbos.com/SSTurbine_Housing_-_MHI_Inlet.html and a DNP manifold. Damn to many choices!!

 

[dsm-onster]

You'd like to think you are a pioneer eh.

I've got the goods on this turbo and it's not so "cheap" to fabricate if you want to do it right. BUT, you say you have a little trick, I'm curious to see exactly what it is you speak of because this turbo is pretty basic.

Should I spill the beans on the turbo or not? Hmmmm....

HAHA! you dirty. . . I forgot that you'd already mentioned running this a while back in another thread. Well, tell us how it's going. . .

I have an exhaust manifold idea and a o2 housing/downpipe idea. anyway, really, post more! Did you just grind down your divider a bit?

 

[TimG]

HAHA! you dirty. . . I forgot that you'd already mentioned running this a while back in another thread. Well, tell us how it's going. . .

I have an exhaust manifold idea and a o2 housing/downpipe idea. anyway, really, post more! Did you just grind down your divider a bit?

Yes I did. I ported for about 2 hours to get it port matched perfectly.

Just keep in mind that the exit for the hot side into the exhaust is not a standard flange bolt pattern. I had my flange CAD drawn and waterjet cut out of a 316 SS 3/8" piece of metal. It cost me over $100 just for that flange alone due to the low quantity and high set-up costs. It looks nice though.

Other then that, I'm getting some weird tuning issues with this turbo. With pump 94 octane gas + M7 nozzled meth kit, I still have to pull my timing a HUGE amount to get it to stop knocking. At one point around 5500rpm, I have my timing advance at only 7 degrees (stock is around 16 degrees I believe). I'm losing a HUGE amount of power with the amount of timing I have to pull to combat knock.

On the bright side, I hit an 11 second pass and a 120MPH run @ 26psi and pulling a boat load of timing. The plan is to inject 2 nozzles of meth (M12 + M7) and run race gas at 30psi and hope for something a little happier.

 

[dsm-onster]

Yes I did. I ported for about 2 hours to get it port matched perfectly.

Just keep in mind that the exit for the hot side into the exhaust is not a standard flange bolt pattern. I had my flange CAD drawn and waterjet cut out of a 316 SS 3/8" piece of metal. It cost me over $100 just for that flange alone due to the low quantity and high set-up costs. It looks nice though.

Thank you. This info really helps us. Many cummins guys are selling their turbos w/ the exit pipe attached now.

Other then that, I'm getting some weird tuning issues with this turbo. With pump 94 octane gas + M7 nozzled meth kit, I still have to pull my timing a HUGE amount to get it to stop knocking. At one point around 5500rpm, I have my timing advance at only 7 degrees (stock is around 16 degrees I believe). I'm losing a HUGE amount of power with the amount of timing I have to pull to combat knock.

I do not think your knock issues are due to the turbo, of course. Meth kit? Are you runnign straight methanol or a mix? or are you running h2o?

On the bright side, I hit an 11 second pass and a 120MPH run @ 26psi and pulling a boat load of timing. The plan is to inject 2 nozzles of meth (M12 + M7) and run race gas at 30psi and hope for something a little happier.

Over 400 hp (1G weight and trap speed). . Where is your spool w/ this supposedly huge 12 cm^2 turbine housing?

The engine run up m_ nozzles excel calculator calculates for water injection not meth from the math required to run straight meth. You need several times more methanol flow to yield the same results when it comes to fighting knock on pump gas. This is for everyone else (I know you know this): A cool intake charge is not the only or most important detonation combatent. Slowing the burn down to race gas burn rates is. Water can do this MUCH better than methanol, in the quantity you're using. One positive: running methanol cools the intake charge better because it cools it at a faster rate. Thus functions as a much more efficient aftercooler.

A properly sized nozzle for meth injection is six of one and a proper nozzle for water injection is a half-a-dozen of another. Except for the fact that meth cools the intake charge quicker in the intake stream and offers MINUTE increase in combustable oxygen. Thus, I run a mix.

It's funny. With my boost settings and tune, I find that summer mix wiper fluid is fine w/my fmic and local average winter temps. And the winter mix is fine for the summer months. For my m7ish nozzle (8 gph) aquastealth nozzle and my m3 nozzle. This comes out to 18% of fuel flow for my recorded lb/hr airflow (or % IDC X total injector fuel flow).

An m7 flows 14% injection for the fuel required for a hair over 50 lb/smin. If you rurnning water injectiong most usually need around 15% water flow. If you're running staight meth multiply that by 3 at least. Running a mix means that you'll just have to experiment based on your ratio of water and meth.

 

[TimG]

It's about a 50/50 mix. I might have a tiny bit more methanol but it's not much more. I'll just upgrade tot he M12 for now and see how it helps with the knock issue.

If you want to know my spool time, open the DSMLink log attached and read it. Don't go by boostest as I have a GM3bar sensor. Also ignore the WBO2 sensor, 11.3:1 followed by a 11.9:1 means richer then 11:1... go figure.

 

[dsm-onster]

What size injectors are you running?

Over 44lbs/min at 24 psi, 272s, and stock intake mani. In all, you're looking very good even with such conservative timing.

You're spooling at 4K. Pretty good for 272s and a hacked turbine housing .

I hope the larger nozzle helps. . .

 

[TimG]

950cc/min injectors.

I'm only revving up to 7300ish rpm. I'll be going higher and getting more airflow from the turbo but this knocking sucks.

 

[dsm-onster]

WOE! 80% idc w/ 950cc injectors at 44 lbs/min?

You're wideband is lying to you! At 11:1 a/f ratio and 78% idc, you should be running somewhere around 540 crank hp. and seeing well over 50 lbs/min. . . I'm assuming your maft is calibrated.

Coincidentally, 50-51 lbs/min is the limit of an hx35 compressor flow based on the map provided.

I suspect a bit of "rich knock", if my hunch proves correct. At 43.5 psi base, it would take an a/f ratio of around 8.5-9.0:1 to yield 78% idc at 43-44 lbs/min. Once you get detonation started, meth likes to "keep it going".

 

[TimG]

The more I richen or pull timing, the more the knock subsides.

If I lean it out, the knock comes on full bore. My wideband isn't lying but I think there is something else wrong with my fuel system.

 

[dsm-onster]

If I lean it out, the knock comes on full bore. My wideband isn't lying but I think there is something else wrong with my fuel system.

Me three. There's no way you should need 80% IDC running 950cc injectors w/ this turbo.

 

[Maglin]

Matt. So you see you decided to go with a Holset huh? Been a while since I talked with you. I fixed the issues on my old HX35 with it not wanting to run under 28 PSI. Turned out their was a very small restrictor in the compressor nipple. Wish I would have seen that a lot earlier. It's happily boosting 26 PSI. Can't wait until my buddy gets a chance to dyno it. When I was tuning it I was behind a semi and car doing 45 in a 70. So I did a ricer fly by starting at the back of the car in front of me doing 45. By the time I crossed the nose of the semi I was doing 125 mph. FYI in case anyone wondered. This car is using the SSAC FMIC and inlet temps 8" from the TB elbow where 41*C on a 97*F day running 25.5PSI.

 

[dsm-onster]

Matt. So you see you decided to go with a Holset huh? Been a while since I talked with you. I fixed the issues on my old HX35 with it not wanting to run under 28 PSI. Turned out their was a very small restrictor in the compressor nipple. Wish I would have seen that a lot earlier. It's happily boosting 26 PSI. Can't wait until my buddy gets a chance to dyno it. When I was tuning it I was behind a semi and car doing 45 in a 70. So I did a ricer fly by starting at the back of the car in front of me doing 45. By the time I crossed the nose of the semi I was doing 125 mph. FYI in case anyone wondered. This car is using the SSAC FMIC and inlet temps 8" from the TB elbow where 41*C on a 97*F day running 25.5PSI.

HA! yea, it was actually talking w/ you that tipped the scales for me .

That HX35 is in a BEP housing, right?

Not even 110* F outlet temps? Go ebay! I have an ebay FMIC as well. But not SSAC. And it is remarkably efficient. I'm getting ready to log several Ford IAT sensors. I have the transfer function for these. So I hope to verify the positive results I'm getting. Mine is 21" X 9" X 2.5" .

 

[coltboostin]

To save time-

What is the fastest anyone has gone on a holset so far? And 10, or 9 second passes? As far as I have seen, no one is pulling out the airflow that the holset compressor maps suggest. Not saying its a bad turbo-for the price its hard to beat-just wondering if people are having success with them yet.

 

[Steve93Talon]

To save time-

What is the fastest anyone has gone on a holset so far? And 10, or 9 second passes? As far as I have seen, no one is pulling out the airflow that the holset compressor maps suggest. Not saying its a bad turbo-for the price its hard to beat-just wondering if people are having success with them yet.

Carl made 516whp and ran 11.08 @ 128 at 32psi with super conservative timing (like 12-13 degrees). The car went 105.5 in the 1/8th, which should be good for 130s. This was on a BEP bolt-on HX40, stock head, FP2s, and JMF intake.

The car had so much more in it, I was really pissed at him for jumping ship and going to a T4 manifold and BW S366 before he got the most out of the Holset. He's paying the price though, as he can't get the thing to shift at 9k and has been parked for months sorting it out.

 

[dsm-onster]

Yea, I've seen several guys record lbs/min sugggested by the hx35 compressor map. Which is right around where a 50 trim is. The HX40 pro has been proven to get to serious numbers.

Garretts wern't proven in the 90s . . .

There has to be a beginning somewhere.

 

[gixrman]

I picked up a H1C yesterday that was seezed up for $35 for the 16cm turbine housing. It was a fairly new turbo that looked like it just lost oil pressure. Anyway i'm taking both turbime housing to a local machine shop today to see if he can machine the inside if the H1C housing to clear fit the H1E turbine wheel. Theres not that much of a difference so I think it can be done. Theres plenty of material in the 16cm housing to clear the bigger wheel. After doing some more searching the big 22cm housing of the H1E is not going to spool well on our little 2.0's. Below are some comparision picture I took.

The H1C has a 2.728 turbine wheel compared to the H1E at 2.978.