Holset Turbos, PART 5

[Slippi84]

The man speaks the truth. Steven (biglady112) says the 52 comes on like it was on a switch, not very smooth and linear.

That is NOT good my friend. You want linear power for the street. That doesn't mean you want slow spool and lag but linear power. That's why when people say I get full boost at 4k I'm good it's missleading. You can have 0psi by 3200 and then 20 psi by 4k or you can have 5 psi by 3k and then 15psi by 3.5k and then full boost by 4k and have atotally different feeling and performing turbo both with the same full boost spool speed. I would rather have a turbo that is the latter of the two for the street and just use anti lag while drag racing to get out the whole like a "switch" as you say

 

[interex]

Ya know... I've tried and tried and given up and tried some more and I just can't seem to get this H2E taken apart. I have no idea how to get two of the hotside housing bolts out. I've been able to get the other 4 but the last 2 I can't fit a boxed in wrench on because of the oil/water mount on the center of the turbo.

Also I have no clue what to use to take the compressor blade off. I know that the nut is a 12mm but what would I use on the hotside? Nothing I have seems to fit. The turbo has no play at all, and spins very well but it has flaky rust all over it and I just want to clean it up.

 

[dsmdizzle]

Need some advice.

I posted on a local forum and I got a guy that seems to know it all and calls all these holset threads bad info. You cant get on the forum unless you are registered so I will copy and paste.


1st post.

Thats because the guys who actually make decent power on them modify the turbine housings and then pretend its stock so when nobody else can make their power level, people think those guys are leet tooooners.

There are like 150 pages of threads on holsets at least on dsm forums and most of it is bad info or people quoting numbers from someone who did 650awhp on an hx40 pro but leaving out the obvious fact that he opened up the BEP .55 a/r scroll massively and didnt tell anyone.

2nd post

Yeah, thats the problem.

The BEP .55 a/r housing WILL NOT control boost unless you open up the internal gate hole. If you were going true external from the manifold, it might control boost, but that little hole does not flow. I spent a few hours fixing one after a 10psi TIAL spring would creep to 16psi @ 6000 rpms and 34psi @ 7000.
Now it only creeps 3-4 psi at redline.

That was with a 38mm valve that was open to the atmosphere. If you are doing a crappy setup that rejoins then its gonna creep even worse.
The .55 BEP housing is way too small to control boost on a 66lb/min compressor wheel.
I cant imagine how bad it would be at sea level.

Blame slomofo blue haze. He sent me the link to this for who knows what reason.


Now my question would be, since I have a nice stainless tubular mani without a wastegate flange on it should I run it off the o2 and port the shit out of the hole in the bep housing?
Or should I get the t3 bep housing and a nice t3 mani with the 38 flange on it and run a really ported evo3 o2 housing?

 

[need2boostpsi]

installed my rebuilt turbo tonight (thanks justin!), had only one problem on the install, my oil return line that i purchased from extreme psi wont go on at all, its hitting the motor mount on the side, i got a picture of the engine bay without the turbo so you can see the stock oil return line and the motor mount on a 1g. My question is what oil return lines will work on a 1g with a holset and a BEP housing.

 

[Slippi84]

Need some advice.

I posted on a local forum and I got a guy that seems to know it all and calls all these holset threads bad info. You cant get on the forum unless you are registered so I will copy and paste.


1st post.

Thats because the guys who actually make decent power on them modify the turbine housings and then pretend its stock so when nobody else can make their power level, people think those guys are leet tooooners.

There are like 150 pages of threads on holsets at least on dsm forums and most of it is bad info or people quoting numbers from someone who did 650awhp on an hx40 pro but leaving out the obvious fact that he opened up the BEP .55 a/r scroll massively and didnt tell anyone.

2nd post

Yeah, thats the problem.

The BEP .55 a/r housing WILL NOT control boost unless you open up the internal gate hole. If you were going true external from the manifold, it might control boost, but that little hole does not flow. I spent a few hours fixing one after a 10psi TIAL spring would creep to 16psi @ 6000 rpms and 34psi @ 7000.
Now it only creeps 3-4 psi at redline.

That was with a 38mm valve that was open to the atmosphere. If you are doing a crappy setup that rejoins then its gonna creep even worse.
The .55 BEP housing is way too small to control boost on a 66lb/min compressor wheel.
I cant imagine how bad it would be at sea level.

Blame slomofo blue haze. He sent me the link to this for who knows what reason.


Now my question would be, since I have a nice stainless tubular mani without a wastegate flange on it should I run it off the o2 and port the shit out of the hole in the bep housing?
Or should I get the t3 bep housing and a nice t3 mani with the 38 flange on it and run a really ported evo3 o2 housing?

You can quote me and send this over to that forum. You have no idea what your talking about(whoever is saying this stuff) If he spent any amount of time on here he would see there are pictures and pictures and pictures of these turbo's people are using. If it was hogged out then you would be able to notice the difference between two turbos with teh same hot side and blades. Second even if that were the case which it isn't then what's the big deal. How hard is it to port a wastegate hole? This guy(again the guy saying this stuff) sounds like a garret supporter who just can't cope with the fact that he spent 4 times what all of us spent and still have better performing turbo's than he does. And third and the biggest thing that lets you know he doesn't know what he's talking about(again the guy saying all this stuff) porting a wastegate opening will NOT increase power levels. It will actually a low you to regulate more exhaust flow AWAY from the turbine wheel and run LESS boost thus making less power. The more boost you run the smaller a wastegate you need to regulate boost. He can look back at holset part 3 where everyone debated using a 38mm external off the o2 housing to regulate boost on a hx40 and hx35. If you want to run like 8 psi you might need some huge wastegate that will regulate a lot of exhaust flow but at say 25psi up on either one of these turbos and a 38 off the o2 housing with stock 38mm whole will do the job. That is all. If he cares to debate this I look at this thread all the time and he can post what he thinks here.

 

[dsmdizzle]

I really appreciate your reply, it really clears up stuff for me. I quoted you and threw it on] there for him to reply to. I will let you know what he says.

 

[interex]

I really appreciate your reply, it really clears up stuff for me. I quoted you and threw it on utdsm.org for him to reply to. I will let you know what he says.

Don't let a moderator see you cross-posting between forums, it can get you banned.

 

[chrisb33]

Matt/guys,

what do you think of this combo for my hx35 with the BEP bolt on housing:

FP race manifold
e-bay external gate (dont know what size though. any ideas?)

matt,

i remember you telling me you bought your external gate over ebay. did you modify anything inside or is just plug and play?

what do you think the flow rate of the hx35 with the BEP bolt on housing? With the stock housing i remember you telling me that it would flow at around 60lb/m. what about with the BEP housing?

thanks.

chris b

 

[GST95]

installed my rebuilt turbo tonight (thanks justin!), had only one problem on the install, my oil return line that i purchased from extreme psi wont go on at all, its hitting the motor mount on the side, i got a picture of the engine bay without the turbo so you can see the stock oil return line and the motor mount on a 1g. My question is what oil return lines will work on a 1g with a holset and a BEP housing.

Have you tried to clock the center a little bit, or tried to put the line on the turbo before bolting the turbo to your manifold?

 

[Steve93Talon]

Sometimes you have to trim the side of the mount.

 

[dsm-onster]

Need some advice.

I posted on a local forum and I got a guy that seems to know it all and calls all these holset threads bad info. You cant get on the forum unless you are registered so I will copy and paste.

. . . . . . [insert bull] . . . . .

Now my question would be, since I have a nice stainless tubular mani without a wastegate flange on it should I run it off the o2 and port the shit out of the hole in the bep housing?
Or should I get the t3 bep housing and a nice t3 mani with the 38 flange on it and run a really ported evo3 o2 housing?

!!!!!!!! why are you even giving that information a second thought? Every one on this forum knows what Jason Marrow did with the bolton bep housing with an internal gate. He had blowing open issues if anything, not creep issues. He was already peaking early in hp and dropping off alot for his setup. He was probably blowing open and LOOSING boost. Not creeping.

I have the bep .55 a/r housing with an o2 mounted gate. I can control boost down to 0psi. I can remove the spring in my external gate (off the o2 housing) and I can see ZERO boost by 7500rpms. So there is NO creep issues. The bolton housing has a 38mm hole. A 38mm hole is a 38mm hole. A 38mm gate is plenty for a larger turbo with a smaller .48 a/r bolton PTE turbine housing. My ebay external gate controls boost from 5psi to 35psi. ZERO creap. Even zero spike.

Here's the kicker for my above related personal experience: my wastegate hole in the .55 a/r turbine housing is smaller than 38mm. It is about 1 1/8", or 29mm. The housing is an old used carbon steel housing sold to me by Nick of The Turbo Trader and the wastegate hole was welded shut not with a plate but with pure weld so that the volute could be smooth. I opened it up to about 34mm. No creep. No spike. No blowing open.

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Internal gating is a no-no for big turbos. I've always said this. And said this numerous time in these threads. So I get the credit for calling it first for a holset, not this internet husler. But not because of creep. The backpressure causes an internal gate to blow open. If you have an external gate blow open, you don't have enough spring. No big deal.

Badman21 had an external gate, by the way.

And yea badman21 hogged out his turbine housing scroll ? Honestly, what some people will imagine to cling to the "you get what you pay for" premise. What did he do, extrude honed the he!! out of it? How do you get a grinder halfway into the scroll. Badman21 certainly had the funds to use the .70a/r t3 bep housing. No need for an adapterplate because he was using the t3 .55 a/r housing. But why buy the .70a/r housing when you can make the .55 a/r housing thin and unsmooth by enlarging the volute with 200 micro grinders operated by an army of nanorobots. This guy actually thinks the turbine housing is the primary component influencing flow in the turbine. Nevermind the turbine wheel. It's in the way of the flow. But that's ok it spins on his sense of self satisfaction, not the exhaust gases bouncing off of it.

Perhaps he means that he hogged out the wastegate hole? He ran his gate off of the o2 housing. See here:

here.

He runs the holset setup at 40psi. I assure you. The gate is closed most of the time. So if there were a creep issue, his setup is not a reference. Creep has nothing to do with power output potential. Blowing open the gate does. So which one is it? No boost control, turbine housing too small to produce the power, or blowing open the gate to lose power. . . How can you modify the turbine housing by just enlarging the wastegate and "make good power with them". Either this person needs to start at the basics, or he really means that these holset toooners are enlarging tha a/r of the turbine housing. Don't bother with the information coming from such a source.

Adding equally to the merriment of my day, "The .55 BEP housing is way too small to control boost on a 66lb/min compressor wheel." A too large a compressor wheel causes surge, not creep.

 

[GST95]

Internal gating is a no-no for big turbos. I've always said this. And said this numerous time in these threads. So I get the credit for calling it first for a holset, not this internet husler. But not because of creep. The backpressure causes an internal gate to blow open. If you have an external gate blow open, you don't have enough spring. No big deal.

An internal setup with the correct actuator and mbc will hold just fine at high pressure. Its easier to change the spring rate in an external, but you can also change the spring rate on an internal setup too. You cant expect a 7psi actuator to keep the wg shut at 30psi, but if you have a 25psi actuator it will stay shut. Most turbo shops dont recommend running twice the boost pressure as your actuator spring.

 

[dsm-onster]

Exactly. But I maintain that it is easier to run an external because you NEED the stronger spring pressure and it is difficult to find an internal actuator with the proper spring tension or to modify one so that it does without ruining the throw neccesary to open the flapper.

 

[GST95]

Exactly. But I maintain that it is easier to run an external because you NEED the stronger spring pressure and it is difficult to find an internal actuator with the proper spring tension or to modify one so that it does without ruining the throw neccesary to open the flapper.

I agree, but there are a variety of stiff spring holset actuators and they have adjustable arms too. External is an easier and better setup, but you can get away with an internal if you have the right combination of parts and a little creativity.

 

[need2boostpsi]

Sometimes you have to trim the side of the mount.

what would you use to trim the mount, thought about using a die grinder but didnt want chunks of metal everywhere. I finally got it in,but the cartridge is clocked slightly to the front hope that wont impede oil flow.

 

[GST95]

what would you use to trim the mount, thought about using a die grinder but didnt want chunks of metal everywhere. I finally got it in,but the cartridge is clocked slightly to the front hope that wont impede oil flow.

You will probably be fine if its slightly clocked. Ive got my drain pointing at about 5 o'clock and its working fine for me.

 

[Slippi84]

I agree, but there are a variety of stiff spring holset actuators and they have adjustable arms too. External is an easier and better setup, but you can get away with an internal if you have the right combination of parts and a little creativity.

That's more of a bandaid for the problem though.

 

[GST95]

If its a bandaid to the problem, then the problem has nothing to do with the wastegate itself, so it doesnt matter if its internal or external. Putting a siffer actuator on an internal setup is exactly the same as putting a stiffer spring in an external wastegate. Increasing boost will increase backpressure. Some turbos dont create as much, but they still do. I hear 1:1.5 ratio thrown around alot, so if you are wanting to run 30psi, you better have enough leverage to hold up to 45psi backpressure. The bigger the wastegate, the more leverage you have to fight against. If you have a better matched turbo you might see something closer to a 1:1 ratio and only have 30psi backpressure though. Both internal and external can perform their purpose effectively when they are setup properly. If you have so much backpressure that you are blowing open a wastegate that is setup properly, your problem isnt with the wastegate, is that your turbine and exhaust housing are too restrictive.

Because externals are available in bigger sizes then most internals will be able to be, an external has a very big advantage when it comes to low boost applications. Not everybody needs low boost though. I know i dont, so im gunna experiment with an internal for now because i already have it, i know its big enough for my needs, and it doesnt cost anything. As long as the hole is big enough not to creep above where you plan to set your boost and you have enough spring pressure to keep it closed untill you want it to open, thats all you need from any wastegate no matter if its internal or external. Its not that complicated of a function. Im sure ill upgrade to an external later, but for now the internal works just fine

 

[dsm-onster]

Will you be using the bolton housing? I can't remember your setup. You have the wh1c with the stock housing correct? You start off with a smaller hole than the bolton guys. There's nothing "wrong" with a bolton being pushed to levels that will blow open the 38mm flapper. I don't know how to easily make an internal gate hole smaller.

I got away with an internally gated 60-1 with a small turbine wheel and, for the turbine wheel, a small turbine housing (the bolton bep housing). I did the tricks. They did work.

 

[GST95]

The wh1c was the old setup. Now its a hx40 with 18cm housing. Im working on getting a 16cm housing cleaned out to use though. I just ordered some 1650cc injectors so ill be able to see where its gunna creep to and i have a few other things to finish up.

You cant easily reduce the size of the hole on a internal, but you can gain leverage by using a longer wastegate arm (the arm that goes through the exhaust housing thats attached to the flap, not the actuator arm). Also, finding an actuator with a wider diaphragm increases leverage too.

 

[dsm-onster]

Yes, that is exactly what I did with my 60-1 several years ago.

 

[Steve93Talon]

The bolton housing has a 38mm hole. A 38mm hole is a 38mm hole. A 38mm gate is plenty for a larger turbo with a smaller .48 a/r bolton PTE turbine housing.

The bolt-on housing has a 38mm flapper door, the actual hole is much, much smaller. With a Tial 38mm gate on the o2 housing, I had to port the crap out of the hole on the BEP housing to be able to run under 25psi without creep. If you're running an o2 mounted gate and bolt-on housing of any sort other than FP's, I'd open up the hole to the edge of the valve seat area to be safe.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well am I the only one? I've run a t31 60-1 with no exhaust with the stock BEP internal gate. No creep. I've run the h1c with no exhaust and a 29mm hole with a 38mm external gate. No creep. . . What am I doing?

This is funny because I remember back in the day DSMers b!tching about not being able to run more than 20-22psi with their rs49s and bep 50-trims and other bep bolton housing turbos. The flapper would blow open and boost would not go over 22psi. I don't know about you but there's no turbo you want to put in the bep housing that you want to be running under 20psi. So if it were creaping to 20 psi then blowing open and not holding more than 22, then these bits of information were never relayed by all those reviews. And again, I've had 2 of these housings with 2 different turbine wheels, both with either stock BEP hole or 29mm hole and have never seen creep. But I have blown open the flapper.

 

[Slippi84]

If its a bandaid to the problem, then the problem has nothing to do with the wastegate itself, so it doesnt matter if its internal or external. Putting a siffer actuator on an internal setup is exactly the same as putting a stiffer spring in an external wastegate. Increasing boost will increase backpressure. Some turbos dont create as much, but they still do. I hear 1:1.5 ratio thrown around alot, so if you are wanting to run 30psi, you better have enough leverage to hold up to 45psi backpressure. The bigger the wastegate, the more leverage you have to fight against. If you have a better matched turbo you might see something closer to a 1:1 ratio and only have 30psi backpressure though. Both internal and external can perform their purpose effectively when they are setup properly. If you have so much backpressure that you are blowing open a wastegate that is setup properly, your problem isnt with the wastegate, is that your turbine and exhaust housing are too restrictive.

Because externals are available in bigger sizes then most internals will be able to be, an external has a very big advantage when it comes to low boost applications. Not everybody needs low boost though. I know i dont, so im gunna experiment with an internal for now because i already have it, i know its big enough for my needs, and it doesnt cost anything. As long as the hole is big enough not to creep above where you plan to set your boost and you have enough spring pressure to keep it closed untill you want it to open, thats all you need from any wastegate no matter if its internal or external. Its not that complicated of a function. Im sure ill upgrade to an external later, but for now the internal works just fine

I should have been more specific I just meant adjusting the arm not putting in a stiffer actuator. I'm not a big internal guy anymore but if your gonna go that route I don't think there's anything wrong with switching actuators but relying on the arms adjustment to regulate boost is a band aid for having the wrong sized wastegate or the wrong spring tension.

 

[ceedawg]

The wh1c was the old setup. Now its a hx40 with 18cm housing. Im working on getting a 16cm housing cleaned out to use though. I just ordered some 1650cc injectors so ill be able to see where its gunna creep to and i have a few other things to finish up.

.

Well how does the car feel with the 18cm housing? And why are you gonna use the 16cm housing? Curious,because I have a 16 cm housing and an 18cm housing . Just waiting to purchase a TS exh mani.