Holset Turbos, PART 5

[dsm-onster]

That is not going to happen. Most likely it is going around 6K + RPM...

Otherwise, everyone here would be running HX-52, instead of HX-40...

The advantages of a twinscroll manifold are then clearly apparent The hx52 with a non-divided runner manifold and 272 style cams sees 20psi by 6500rpms on a 2.0L motor. 4+psi by 5500rpms. Like I predicted in that thread, about 1000rpms faster spool speed with a true twin scroll setup. The question is, will the turbine flow be enough to reach the potential of the compressor flow?

 

[Slippi84]

That is not going to happen. Most likely it is going around 6K + RPM...

Otherwise, everyone here would be running HX-52, instead of HX-40...

Hit me up when your ready to get rid of your hx40 then

 

[andy4g63]

The advantages of a twinscroll manifold are then clearly apparent The hx52 with a non-divided runner manifold and 272 style cams sees 20psi by 6500rpms on a 2.0L motor. 4+psi by 5500rpms. Like I predicted in that thread, about 1000rpms faster spool speed with a true twin scroll setup. The question is, will the turbine flow be enough to reach the potential of the compressor flow?

Matt, I am not arguing with you, cause you know way too much and I don't!!!
There is no way, that this turbo HX-52, or any other fo this dimension, will jump from 5PSi to 25 PSI in ONLY 1000 RPM's, that is a lot of air to move, regardless of the manifold-turbine housing combo/divided or not... Second, this is not a fact, but it was his/Boosted/ assumption. And this is only 2.0L motor. Third, Most of the time I support the use of stock TB, but not for turbos like 52, 42R, 372 etc. Plus he has stock cams and intake manifold .

 

[GST95]

For spool speed, the turbine is the primary and vastly the most influential part of the turbo. TimG's spool speed is what you should expect from a 12cm^2 turbine housing hx35 with a non-divided exhaust manifold that flows a little better than stock and 272 cams. His compressor wheel upgrade even has the same major diameter as a stock hx35 compressor wheel.

So, since i was running a wh1c in a 12cm^2 housing with a non-divided exhaust manifold with 272 cams and seeing 300rpm faster spool without any tuning at all, what do you think would have caused the difference then? Exhaust?

Maybe TimG can tell us if hx40 wheel spooled any slower then the hx35 wheel he previously ran.

Whats your opinion on a longer rod in a 2.4 block with a girdle and a 100mm crank?

 

[Slippi84]

So, since i was running a wh1c in a 12cm^2 housing with a non-divided exhaust manifold with 272 cams and seeing 300rpm faster spool without any tuning at all, what do you think would have caused the difference then? Exhaust?

Maybe TimG can tell us if hx40 wheel spooled any slower then the hx35 wheel he previously ran.

Whats your opinion on a longer rod in a 2.4 block with a girdle and a 100mm crank?

All that is, is a long rod 2.4 motor. I think that's overkill for a turbo like a hx35/wh1c. I would run atleast a hx40 with a long rod 2.4 motor.

 

[dsm-onster]

What rpm do you reach 20psi in 3rd gear, GST95? Do you mean the difference between your scm6031 and your wh1c? That is simple. I had the same basic turbo with a better turbine housing: the 60-1 with the t31 turbine wheel in the BEP bolton housing. 20psi later than 4300rpms for me too. The wheels are mismatched. Also, my turbine housing does a better job getting the gases to the turbine blades in a clean shot.

Matt, I am not arguing with you, cause you know way too much and I don't!!!
There is no way, that this turbo HX-52, or any other fo this dimension, will jump from 5PSi to 25 PSI in ONLY 1000 RPM's, that is a lot of air to move, regardless of the manifold-turbine housing combo/divided or not... Second, this is not a fact, but it was his/Boosted/ assumption. And this is only 2.0L motor. Third, Most of the time I support the use of stock TB, but not for turbos like 52, 42R, 372 etc. Plus he has stock cams and intake manifold .

Take a look at biglady's thread there again. The hx52 with a non-divided manifold (which makes the twinscrolls one HUGE volute) did nearly that exact action. 4psi at 5500rpms. 20psi by 6500rpms.

Stock cams increase spool speed . My setup got laggier with the introduction of fp2 cams. Lower VE at spool up slows spool speed. Higher duration lowers VE at spool time. There are ways to tweek that; but, if you don't have a twin scroll setup, not without some sacrifices.

I know you're not argueing. This is a good discussion. But it IS just benchracing by all involved. b00stedtalon2 needs to turn up the boost .

 

[GST95]

What rpm do you reach 20psi in 3rd gear, GST95? Do you mean the difference between your scm6031 and your wh1c? That is simple. I had the same basic turbo with a better turbine housing: the 60-1 with the t31 turbine wheel in the BEP bolton housing. 20psi later than 4300rpms for me too. The wheels are mismatched. Also, my turbine housing does a better job getting the gases to the turbine blades in a clean shot.

No, im talking about my wh1c setup compared to TimG's hx40/hx35 setup. When i swapped the scm6031 for the wh1c, my spool speed changed from 4200ish to 3700ish. You have been saying that TimG's is spooling closer to 4k.

All that is, is a long rod stroker motor. I think that's overkill for a turbo like a hx35/wh1c. I would run atleast a hx40 with a long rod 2.4 motor.

The taller deck height changes your options a little, so its not really the same as a stroker. Im running a hx40 now, but im working on a different car that is a hx5X powered project.

 

[dsm-onster]

His spools about 200rpms later. I don't consider that a big difference. A different tune will alter spool this much along with different manifold design or o2 housing design. I saw logs of his straight hx35 setup. The spool speed wasn't very different when he swapped to the hx40 compressor wheel.

My 7cm^2 td05h 18g spooled with in 200rpms of my 7cm^2 td05h small 16g. And, the 18g compressor exducer diameter is actually much bigger than the small16g; which is not the case with the difference between the hx35 compressor and the 60mm hx40 compressor.

 

[Slippi84]

No, im talking about my wh1c setup compared to TimG's hx40/hx35 setup. When i swapped the scm6031 for the wh1c, my spool speed changed from 4200ish to 3700ish. You have been saying that TimG's is spooling closer to 4k.






The taller deck height changes your options a little, so its not really the same as a stroker. Im running a hx40 now, but im working on a different car that is a hx5X powered project.

Sorry I meant a long rod 2.4. I have a bad habbit of calling a 2.4 a stroker because I always consider stock 2.0 but in that case the stock displacement is 2.4

 

[TimG]

Maybe TimG can tell us if hx40 wheel spooled any slower then the hx35 wheel he previously ran.

I honestly didn't notice much. If there was a difference, it wasn't a big issue and the power difference makes up for it.

Just an FYI, the HX-35/40 combo is sick. I'm driving around at 35psi still... in December.

I hope you guys don't expect to have a streetable car with an HX-50+ turbo. My turbo right now is borderline stupid in terms of gaining traction. Anymore power and I will need slicks on the street.

Regardless, I love my Hol-Slut. She is dirty and knows how to treat me right when I need it.

 

[dsm-onster]

hol-slut.

10second cars need $3000 transmissions and $3000 suspensions and rubber. Nevermind the engine boltons and prayers.

You have made the most important point about the hx52 so far. Can it spool on a street setup? Sure. But what do you have to go through to keep it at a horsepower level that will merit the turbo? If you'll never put to the ground more than what an hx40 pro delivers why go hx52? If you'll never put to the ground more than what the 7blade hx35 or 8blade hx40 delivers, why go 40 pro? If you will never put more down than the bep/hx35, why go with the 7blade hx35 with the stock housing or 8blade hx40? If you have huge plans later then fine. But too many of us have life come crashing down on us to keep us from going to 'the next level next year'. Best to make a goal and build for it. Fastest spooling turbo for your goal that fits in your budget.

If you want to see a big tubo under the hood, then you will even with the bep/hx35. The compressor covers are deceivingly large.

 

[GST95]

Thanks for the info. I wasnt saying it was a big difference. Just like all turbos, they perform slightly different on different cars.



Does anybody have any (w)h1c and hx35 turbine shafts that they can measure? Id like to make a hybrid out of the hx40 chra/compressor with my wh1c turbine and housing, but im not sure if the turbine shaft will fit or not. Anybody have any shaft lengths?

My hx5X project isnt gunna see the street much and its gunna be a handful if its ever finished. Light and short with traction issues. Should be fun though. It probably wont be together for another year or so.

Untill then ill continue to play with my hx40 street car.

Streetable is a relative term that has a different meaning for everybody. Somebody that lives in and commutes in a big city is going to have a way different idea of what is streetable compared to somebody that lives in a rural area and commutes to a small town. Its all relative.

 

[dsm-onster]

HTTurbo.com used to do this. Contact them to find out more information. They may have a kit ready for your turbo in stock. But there's no access to the above link through their website anymore. So I don't know what they're doing about the old h1c/wh1c models.

 

[GST95]

I have a hx40 with a bad turbine and a good wh1c and id like to make 1 good hybrid between the 2. Id have to use the hx40 chra for the compressor cover to attach. If the shafts are the same length it might work, but Ill probably just have to measure myself. I thought maybe somebody would have some taken apart already. If it doesnt work i guess i just have spare parts.

 

[Slippi84]

I honestly didn't notice much. If there was a difference, it wasn't a big issue and the power difference makes up for it.

Just an FYI, the HX-35/40 combo is sick. I'm driving around at 35psi still... in December.

I hope you guys don't expect to have a streetable car with an HX-50+ turbo. My turbo right now is borderline stupid in terms of gaining traction. Anymore power and I will need slicks on the street.

Regardless, I love my Hol-Slut. She is dirty and knows how to treat me right when I need it.

I just started a thread about my build in the drag section. I do plan on having a streetable car as I plan on running drag radials on my STREET tire combo and MT's on my stock rims for the track. I think the fact that the power is very linear and the lag from the hx52 will actually make it better traction than a hx40. I had the same problem when I was 16g vs my old gt14. The 16g car lost it quicker than the gt14 and no matter how slow I got into the go pedal the 16g car wanted to torque steer and lose traction where as with the gt14 I could ease into the power and pull smooth all the way to redline and not worry as much. I will use every bit of this turbo so to the question that mat had will I ever put down the power to warrant a turbo like a hx52.....If not I'm gonna spin them down the whole track trying

 

[turbotalon1g]

I think TimG is running a hx35/hx40 in a 12cm^2 housing.



Before i put on my straight wh1c, i had a scm6031. I had about the same spool as you. My spool rpm decreased about 500rpm with the holset. The holset also had better transient response, pre-spool power, flowed more air, was able to run more boost, and had more top end power. I think any way you end up going, you will be happy with it. After the issues i had with my PTE, im not a fan of bolt on housings. I think the BEP housings are better designed then PTE are though. Go with whatever setup works best for you.

If this is true you might have the fastest spooling WH1c setup on here.
Ok, i got the HX35 on the way, right now I am thinking spend the money and get it done right because I want this to be the last setup on the car.
I have FP mani, gonna do ext. wastegate on O2 housing. BEP mitsu housing.
My boost gauge goes to 40 so if i can do that and hold it then I will be happy i really don't care what psi level it does because I have E85 i just want a bit more lag than now and more top end.
I just want this car to run, because I have a new project so this one doesn't have to do much.

 

[Iroc_g]

I just started a thread about my build in the drag section. I do plan on having a streetable car as I plan on running drag radials on my STREET tire combo and MT's on my stock rims for the track. I think the fact that the power is very linear and the lag from the hx52 will actually make it better traction than a hx40. I had the same problem when I was 16g vs my old gt14. The 16g car lost it quicker than the gt14 and no matter how slow I got into the go pedal the 16g car wanted to torque steer and lose traction where as with the gt14 I could ease into the power and pull smooth all the way to redline and not worry as much. I will use every bit of this turbo so to the question that mat had will I ever put down the power to warrant a turbo like a hx52.....If not I'm gonna spin them down the whole track trying

Wait a second. You have a awd, and had traction issues with a 16g?

 

[delta448]

The thread Slippi quoted me from is found here.

I'd love to continue the discussion there with some more points like you guys made above^, but I'm reluctant to post more off-topic stuff in any of the Holset threads. There are already several much more topic-relevant mini-discussions going on in these threads that are hard enough to sort through, I don't want to separate those responses any further than necessary.

I'll just make one point you guys may have missed. There's always someone willing to custom make your rods and pistons. Cost is usually the primary concern. Custom pistons can be designed with the pin location moved as much as 8-9mm max, although most manufacturers are reluctant because the pin bore pushes into the oil ring groove and severely weakens the design. A 9mm shorter than stock compression height piston can equate into a 162mm rod and 94mm crank fitting in a 2.4 block. If you really want to spend some extra cash, use the 92mm Magnus crank, an 8mm shorter piston (for better strength vs a -9mm) and a 162mm rod is a perfect fit.

 

[Slippi84]

Wait a second. You have a awd, and had traction issues with a 16g?

More torque steer than traction problems but yeah punching it in second or first gear at less than 25mph it could become a pain to keep straight and it was not a overly powerful setup but it did make boost very quick as I had stock cams and manifold and run like right at 20psi showed threw a calibrated dsmlink. This was all on shitty street tires though don't think that a 16g is gonna overpower awd.

 

[Iroc_g]

That makes sence I guess. My evo3 at 24psi couldn't squeak a tire, but that is with fresh kdw2 tires.

Sorry for the off topic!

 

[jrohner]

My 16g powered car goes crazy and sideways in 2nd gear when the boost hits; when I have the boost turned up anyways, but not so much at my usual street boost of about 20-21psi. I can hardly imagine it with an hx35, which is pretty much my dream turbo.

 

[We're on Boost]

Yeah I could see plenty of sideways with 450 ft-lbs of torque. Hey I just noticed in your profile it says 22psi on e85 in the dyno description. Is that right? - only 22psi on that run?

Gary

 

[b00stedtalon2]

Whats not streetable about an HX50+ turbo? And let me tell you, the 52 really wanted to build up fast, I was pretty shocked. It's VERY responsive.

It's more streetable than a 14b. Why would you want to be in boost at cruise? Larger turbo = never in boost unless you really want too.

 

[jrohner]

Yeah I could see plenty of sideways with 450 ft-lbs of torque. Hey I just noticed in your profile it says 22psi on e85 in the dyno description. Is that right? - only 22psi on that run?

Gary

About 22-23psi at peak hp; it was probably 26-28psi at spool up.

I can crank it up to around 31psi at a little over 3 grand and it still just drops to maybe 23. At 22psi the boost stays about level all the way up, maybe tapering off 1psi.

I never changed boost or anything else on my 3 pulls on the dyno and my pulls were probably one of the most consistent of the day.

 

[kicker91laser]

Whats not streetable about an HX50+ turbo? And let me tell you, the 52 really wanted to build up fast, I was pretty shocked. It's VERY responsive.

It's more streetable than a 14b. Why would you want to be in boost at cruise? Larger turbo = never in boost unless you really want too.

The man speaks the truth. Steven (biglady112) says the 52 comes on like it was on a switch, not very smooth and linear.