Holset Turbos, PART 3

[dsmconvict]

Yeah I have an 8-blade HX40 and was looking at the maps and where you said the 8-blade might be the lowest flowing compressor. The measurements I was given at the time of the purchase were 58mm on the compressor and 60mm on the exhaust. I want to opt for the htturbo 60mm/6-blade compressor upgrade. Is this the same compressor used on the PRO/SUPER 40?


Chris

 

[ceedawg]

No one knows. . . You'll have to test it out. Holset housing almost forces one to run a better o2 housing design. . . That DOES count for something . . .at the hx35 flow level. Who knows? Only a log will tell.

Well I have my hybrid turbo right here next to my new HX40 pro with the 14^2cm custom holset turbine housing. This Turbine hsing is rumored to be a .97A/R hsing.

The only thing I'm not to crazee about is that the outlet is a lil less than 2.75 inches compared to 3" on my BEP housing mounted on my HX40/35. I'm still going with 3" on my downpipe some how when I have it fabricated for this Holset hsing unless I get a 16^2cm hsing which I believe has a 3" outlet.

The difference in the overall size of the housings is very very apparent. This 14^2cm housing nearly dwarfs this .55AR BEP housing.

I wonder if this Holset 14^2cm hsing will also dwarf the .70A/R T3 divided hsing BEP has now?


I guess I'll be looking for some nice top end and spoolup from this thing since it's a divided hsing and I plan on using a exh mani with a divided outlet to match. Runners 1&4 and runners 2&3 separated and situated together at the collector flange.

PICS will be posted to compare.

 

[dsm-onster]

Yeah I have an 8-blade HX40 and was looking at the maps and where you said the 8-blade might be the lowest flowing compressor. The measurements I was given at the time of the purchase were 58mm on the compressor and 60mm on the exhaust. I want to opt for the htturbo 60mm/6-blade compressor upgrade. Is this the same compressor used on the PRO/SUPER 40?


Chris

If you do a google search, you'll see something strange. The super40 has 7 blades, the 6 blade does infact have a 60mm inducer, and there's a "high flow" hx40 frequently being referred to. This highflow compressor wheel is apparently different from the super40, according to the holset published maps and Holset/Cummins article I found. I don't have the diameters of the 7 blade wheel. . .

But SEVERAL diesel shops have mentioned that the super40 has 7 blades:

Big Power Diesel
High Tech Turbo
Performance Turbo Motorsports
S & R Diesel Concepts
Diesel Performance Plus

Pictures of a Holset super40: Index of /auto kuvat/holset super 40

I am apparently wrong about the 8 blade compressor being the lowest flowing holset map. The H1E/WH1E has the identical 8 blade compressor. There apparently is only one compressor manufatured for the h1e by holset themselves (the 8 blade), and we do have one compressor map for the H1E. My WH1E has a map width enhancement groove (MWE). . . Like the 8 blade hx40s. The turbine is the same so this WH1E is an 8 blade hx40 with different compressor cover clamping.

The WH1C has the MWE groove but the earlier H1Cs do not. The same *seams* to apply to the E series H1 turbos, too. I am still searching and asking around. This would mean that the H1E compressor map posted earlier would be the same map for the 8 blade HX40/WH1E except the 8 blade HX40/WH1E will display a better surge line and even more peak flow. That H1C map dies out at around 55 lbs/min.

I can see the MWE groove adding up to 3lbs/min. MWE widens a compressor map. There is a minor loss in efficiency, but the groove allows more air to be grabbed by the secondary vanes without causing those vanes to be "in the way" of the flow since they are smaller. Interestingly, the middle flowing HX40 compressor map on the first page of this thread looks like a wider version of that H1E compressor map I posted earlier.

So in all. An 8 blade h1e/hx40 should push 55 lbs/min. Probably a little more, if the H1E does not come with MWE, since the HX40/WH1E does. The .55 a/r bep housing and hx40/h1e/wh1e turbine has no problem flowing this amount and you still see spool at or before 4K. This is like having a 60-1 with faster spool and less surge.

 

[dsmconvict]

WTF The compressor upgrade from htturbo says 6-blade 60mm. Is the super 40 a factory Holset turbo or is it another hybrid? Is the compressor wheel still a 60mm inducer? Are the exducers different between the two? I'm glad you guys started these threads it's a great way to learn instead of being in the dark anymore. The Holsets are a pretty cheap way to put down some good numbers from what I've seen. BTW Matt did you get the WH1E off ebay from some diesel guy in Maryland. I believe the store is called Turbochargers and Diesel Injection. Thats where I purchased my $150 HX40 and a few others like a s400 that needed a compressor wheel.


Chris

 

[dsm-onster]

WTF The compressor upgrade from htturbo says 6-blade 60mm. Is the super 40 a factory Holset turbo or is it another hybrid? Is the compressor wheel still a 60mm inducer? Are the exducers different between the two? I'm glad you guys started these threads it's a great way to learn instead of being in the dark anymore. The Holsets are a pretty cheap way to put down some good numbers from what I've seen. BTW Matt did you get the WH1E off ebay from some diesel guy in Maryland. I believe the store is called Turbochargers and Diesel Injection. Thats where I purchased my $150 HX40 and a few others like a s400 that needed a compressor wheel.


Chris

Right on that HTT website I posted:

HOLSET SUPER 40 upgrade turbo 475-435 HP

Unlike many turbos sold out of the box, we make the necessary modifications so these turbos fit. The exhaust outlet is 4" and not 3" so we can also provide a downpipe for the 2nd generation trucks. The Super 40 has a redesigned 7-blade compressor and turbine wheel. The shaft is the same size but the assembly is precision balanced as an assembly with the compressor.
*while supplies last

Price is $825.00.* OUT OF STOCK
​

Yep I got mine from MD . . . The same shop. Fast shipping. Product was $300 shipped and brand spankin' new!!! As you can see from my pic. . .

 

[dsmconvict]

I've been looking at them WH1E's for awhile and he has a nice stock of them. But the real question is are the super 40 7-blade wheel the same as these?

High Tech Turbo

 

[dsm-onster]

No. The super40 has 7 blades. Those compressor wheels have 6 blades.

All this talk of the 6 blade flowing more than the 7 blade is apparently untrue. The 7 blade is the super40.

 

[dsmconvict]

So as you said the 8-blade is comparable to a 60-1 but quicker spool and less surge. Would it even be wise to upgrade the compressor if I am shooting for 500-550 on an 8-blade compressor? Lol sorry for all the questions I just don't wanna spend money if I don't have to. Thanks again.

Chris

 

[dsm-onster]

So as you said the 8-blade is comparable to a 60-1 but quicker spool and less surge. Would it even be wise to upgrade the compressor if I am shooting for 500-550 on an 8-blade compressor? Lol sorry for all the questions I just don't wanna spend money if I don't have to. Thanks again.

Chris

Considering . . .

1. The smaller 54mm 8 blade hx35 has delivered 500whp
2. The 8blade hx35 blade shapes are identical to the hx40 8 blade but the hx40 8blade has 4mm more inducer diameter!
3. You have a larger hx40 turbine to work with

. . .it's likely you could reach your goal as is. Try it. You have nothing to lose but the time it would take to verify this and inform the rest of the community. I plan on running the wh1e as is, also. I also want to run the 8blade hx40/h1e/wh1e on the hx35 turbine with a larger turbine housing.

Here's what I'm putting on in the next month. And below that is a comparison of an 18cm^2 turbine housing vs. a BEP .55 a/r housing. . .

 

[aero_sallee]

My HE351VE came today that I got off ebay. Immediately had to take it apart.
Took some measurements. The compressor measurements are approximate since it is a 7 blade wheel.

Turbine
EX 2.357
IND 2.755

Compressor
EX 3.38
IND 2.37

Looks like a ~60mm compressor with an 85-86mm exducer.

They said the turbo was not clockable. Far as I can tell the only thing that prevent the hotside from freely rotating is a very small dowel, like on an MHI housing.


I'll get some more stuff up when I can borrow a camera.


Unfortunately my DSM screwed me again. my JY motor started knocking from the bottom end on monday, so it may be a while till I get to play with this thing.

 

[aero_sallee]

Got my iphone to work, so i got some pictures. Not the greatest but they will give u the idea.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0001.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0011.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0010.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0009.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0007.jpg

VGT actuator
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0006.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0005.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0004.jpg

VGT rack fully closed, not sure if the actuator will move it this far or not.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0003.jpg
VGT fully open
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0002.jpg

Now I need to do some investigation into the actuator.

 

[ceedawg]

No. The super40 has 7 blades. Those compressor wheels have 6 blades.

All this talk of the 6 blade flowing more than the 7 blade is apparently untrue. The 7 blade is the super40.

Well how do you come to that conclusion when HTT is saying the 6blade wheel is the actual upgrade?

 

[ceedawg]

Considering . . .

1. The smaller 54mm 8 blade hx35 has delivered 500whp
2. The 8blade hx35 blade shapes are identical to the hx40 8 blade but the hx40 8blade has 4mm more inducer diameter!
3. You have a larger hx40 turbine to work with

. . . I plan on running the wh1e as is, also. I also want to run the 8blade hx40/h1e/wh1e on the hx35 turbine with a larger turbine housing.
. .

This sounds like the turbo you had encouraged me to sell,but with the bep hsing. Basically my HX40/35 hyb with the BEP HSING. What chgd your mind?

 

[dsm-onster]

Well how do you come to that conclusion when HTT is saying the 6blade wheel is the actual upgrade?

The 6 blade IS an upgrade to the 8 blade hx40 and the hx35 compressors. The 7 blade is the super40 compressor. . .

This sounds like the turbo you had encouraged me to sell,but with the bep hsing. Basically my HX40/35 hyb with the BEP HSING. What chgd your mind?

Discovering that the 8blade hx35 compressor and 8 blade hx40 compressor have identical designs except the hx40 has a 4mm larger inducer changed my mind. . . The little hx40 map confused me royal. The hx35 turbine with the .55 a/r housing is likely not enough for the hx40. The turbine is already out of the 10% diameter rule of thumb. And the bep housing is much smaller than the housings designed for the hx35 turbine.

 

[JWoodley]

I should have some numbers on an HX40 6 blade within the next few months. Turbo is coming in next week.

I'm going with FIC 850s, DSMLink, FP Race Mani, and FP 4" intake. Shooting for a solid 400awhp on the 7 bolt.

Any recommendations?

 

[ceedawg]

The 6 blade IS an upgrade to the 8 blade hx40 and the hx35 compressors. The 7 blade is the super40 compressor. . .

I believe that they are saying the 6 & 7 blade would be an upgrade for both the 8 blade 35 and 40 wheels but I don't see where you figure the 7 blade flows more than the 6 blade is where I'm confused.

Discovering that the 8blade hx35 compressor and 8 blade hx40 compressor have identical designs except the hx40 has a 4mm larger inducer changed my mind. . . The little hx40 map confused me royal. The hx35 turbine with the .55 a/r housing is likely not enough for the hx40. The turbine is already out of the 10% diameter rule of thumb. And the bep housing is much smaller than the housings designed for the hx35 turbine.

Basically the only flaw with the hybrid other than the 10% rule is just the BEP turbine hsing according to what you're saying?

Sweet97 claims he was still running high 11's with the BEP hsing on his hybrid,so based on your conclusion are we saying that his car would have run better with a bigger Turbine hsing? If so then this turbo was not so bad after all as you previousy claimed. Just was not putting out the 65+lbs as was quoted with this turbine hsing.

 

[gixrman]

I should have some numbers on an HX40 6 blade within the next few months. Turbo is coming in next week.

I'm going with FIC 850s, DSMLink, FP Race Mani, and FP 4" intake. Shooting for a solid 400awhp on the 7 bolt.

Any recommendations?

I would go with FIC 1000 inj. over 850's. Also are you running a Bullseye housing? The FP manifold is only flanged for Mitsu's. and will only work for internally gated housings or one of there own setups, that manifold does'nt have a WG port. Also why such a low HP? That turbos good for way more.

 

[dsm-onster]

I believe that they are saying the 6 & 7 blade would be an upgrade for both the 8 blade 35 and 40 wheels but I don't see where you figure the 7 blade flows more than the 6 blade is where I'm confused.


Basically the only flaw with the hybrid other than the 10% rule is just the BEP turbine hsing according to what you're saying?

Sweet97 claims he was still running high 11's with the BEP hsing on his hybrid,so based on your conclusion are we saying that his car would have run better with a bigger Turbine hsing? If so then this turbo was not so bad after all as you previousy claimed. Just was not putting out the 65+lbs as was quoted with this turbine hsing.

The 7 blade is the super40. The holset-confirmed super40 map is the highest flowing hx40 map. So yes, the 7 blade flows more. Unless you find a larger map. 60mm is 2 mm larger than the h1e/hx40 8 blade compressor. Not THAT much larger. The 8 blade appears to flow 57 lbs/min. In the previous pages, I have posted a super40 map published by holset. There is 10-15 lbs/min difference between the super40 and the h1e map! The super 40 flows 67-68 lbs/min. I have no direct comparison of the 7 blade super40 and the 6 blade. Nor do I have measurements of the super40 inducer/exducer.

Oh yes, I think if he were running a bigger turbine wheel or bigger turbine housing he would have gotten more out of that compressor. It's a 58mm compressor wheel. It has the same inducer and exducer diameter as a gt3782 with MWE and more blades (higher efficiency). It should perform similarly. Given the proper turbine. Like I said, the small hx40 map really dupped me. I should have known better . We should give the 8 blade a shot at least, right? I covered my a$$ .

Here's more speculation . . . Interestingly, the second highest flowing map we have flows *around* 60-61 lbs/min. Could this be the 60mm map? 2 mm difference inducer could dfinately yield that kind of difference in flow. Which is significant! up to 5 lbs/min difference is substancial. And is definately an upgrade to the 8 blade.

 

[dsm-onster]

I would go with FIC 1000 inj. over 850's. Also are you running a Bullseye housing? The FP manifold is only flanged for Mitsu's. and will only work for internally gated housings or one of there own setups, that manifold does'nt have a WG port. Also why such a low HP? That turbos good for way more.

Likely, because he's running a stock 7 bolt. I bet he could do this with pumpgas.

 

[JWoodley]

Likely, because he's running a stock 7 bolt. I bet he could do this with pumpgas.

Correct. Thats what I'm shooting for. Aside from ARPs, the motor is stock. I am running the Holset with the BEP housing and internal gate.

Fuel wise I have a Walbro 255HP, Aeromotive AFPR, and I'll have DSMLink and injectors upon installation. 850s should be plenty enough to support my goals ~400-430awhp.

I'm debating getting logs with a ported 2G exhaust manifold then switching to the FP manifold for comparison.

I'll be running this setup on the stock 7 bolt until I finish my stroker project. Oddly enough I'm not in a hurry with the stroker. I'd like to put down some good numbers on the 7 bolt, make a few passes with it, then knock the boost down a tad and drive it around.

 

[dsm-onster]

Got my iphone to work, so i got some pictures. Not the greatest but they will give u the idea.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0001.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0011.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0010.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0009.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0007.jpg

VGT actuator
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0006.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0005.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0004.jpg

VGT rack fully closed, not sure if the actuator will move it this far or not.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0003.jpg
VGT fully open
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y210/aero83/HE351VE/IMG_0002.jpg

Now I need to do some investigation into the actuator.

Keep plugging away. It looks to be a fun project!

 

[drewvr4]

Went to the dyno today 417hp and 398 ftlbs at 27psi. Mods are in profile, I had about 5 counts of knock and I didn't let off because mainly I don't care if the motor blows. It was running about 10.7:1 afr with moderate amount of timing. So I honestly think at that boost level I need to put some 110 in to make the knock go away

Dyno sheet flew out the top of the convertable on the way home or I would post it.

 

[ceedawg]

The 7 blade is the super40. The holset-confirmed super40 map is the highest flowing hx40 map. So yes, the 7 blade flows more. Unless you find a larger map. 60mm is 2 mm larger than the h1e/hx40 8 blade compressor. Not THAT much larger. The 8 blade appears to flow 57 lbs/min. In the previous pages, I have posted a super40 map published by holset. There is 10-15 lbs/min difference between the super40 and the h1e map! The super 40 flows 67-68 lbs/min. I have no direct comparison of the 7 blade super40 and the 6 blade. Nor do I have measurements of the super40 inducer/exducer.

Oh yes, I think if he were running a bigger turbine wheel or bigger turbine housing he would have gotten more out of that compressor. It's a 58mm compressor wheel. It has the same inducer and exducer diameter as a gt3782 with MWE and more blades (higher efficiency). It should perform similarly. Given the proper turbine. Like I said, the small hx40 map really dupped me. I should have known better . We should give the 8 blade a shot at least, right? I covered my a$$ .

Here's more speculation . . . Interestingly, the second highest flowing map we have flows *around* 60-61 lbs/min. Could this be the 60mm map? 2 mm difference inducer could dfinately yield that kind of difference in flow. Which is significant! up to 5 lbs/min difference is substancial. And is definately an upgrade to the 8 blade.

Your speculations tend to have me spending $$ all over the place!

I perhaps would have just kept my hybrid and not bought the HX40 6 blade. But I have it now and intend on using it. The HX40 I have is brandnew and not used like the other one (someone recommended) which was bought from ebay. Got rid of that thing and got my$$ back thank God.

Now you're telling me the 7 blade Holset flows more than the 6 blade but possibly by 5lbs?WTF

Dude you're killin me!!
Never the less I'm learning.


Anyway,here is some interestng info about the turbine hsings I thought I'd post.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After doing a bit more research and speaking with engineers everyone has come up with the 12cm being between a .58 and a .060.... The people I have spoke to knew a good bit about these turbos and I definately believe what they have to say and why they thought that.

That being said it is also a common conclusion that the 14cm is in the .67 to .70 and the 16cm is a .76 to .80...

With the amount of upgrades one can make to the hx35 it is my conclusion that the next logical housing for me to try on my car is the 16cm. I went ahead and a bought a new one as I couldn't find any used ones. The plan is to have it ported just like my 12cm is and then have it ceramic coated. Hoping to have it on the dyno shortly after but without having the car be done at the body shop it makes it hard to say when.

Thats it for the update on pretty solid info.

12cm--.58-.60
14cm--.67-.70
16cm--.77-.80
Best numbers I could get out of anyone hope that helps.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Makes me think I'll replace this custom 14cm^2 HX40 turbine hsing with a twin scroll 16cm^2,even though my HX40 should spool like a monster in the 14cm^2 housing. Just don't want the thing to choke uptop.
Any other thoughts about this?

 

[ceedawg]

And this as a supplementary to my last post:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

If I may offer a few comments regarding the use of twin scroll (TS) componentry in a largely single scroll world . . .


- I recently upgraded from a regular .63 A/R T3 with a GT35R to a PT67 BB with a .70 A/R TS T4. Despite the fact that the T4 housing makes the T3 look like a toy, the response of the TS configuration of the T4 makes an open T3 feel like mud. Despite the fact that a larger turbo is used, it gives superior transient response due to the TS.

- The biggest realization when using a TS housing is that if you chose it using open housing A/R figures as a guideline, you chose too small. I know for a fact that a 1.06 A/R TS T3 spools faster than the same turbo with a .63 A/R open T3. When using TS, don't be shy about going large, because A/R figures don't correlate between open and TS housings when it comes to spool and power characteristics.

- A TS turbine housing requires a TS manifold. Fitting an open manifold to a TS housing is like putting a square peg in a round hole.

- A four cylinder engine benefits more so from a TS setup than anything else, primarily due to the latency period between pulses and blowdown isolation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hsing comparison between BEP .55AR and modded Holset HX40 14cm^2 housing

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The holset hsing dwarfs the BEP hsing! Notice how much of the compressor hsing you can see in the background when comparing the two turbine hsings. The 14cm housing practically hides the comp hsing when looking at it.This hsing (14cm holset)should wrk very well on a HX35 or HX40/35 hybrid. However I'm thinking of going to a 18cm or 16 cm

 

[GORBS88]

Went to the dyno today 417hp and 398 ftlbs at 27psi. Mods are in profile, I had about 5 counts of knock and I didn't let off because mainly I don't care if the motor blows. It was running about 10.7:1 afr with moderate amount of timing. So I honestly think at that boost level I need to put some 110 in to make the knock go away

Dyno sheet flew out the top of the convertable on the way home or I would post it.

Good job. Glad to see that we finally have some real world numbers from the hx-35. Now i have an idea of what i was making on that turbo.
What kind of timing were you running? Where you running any kind of W/I?