Holset Turbos, PART 5

[dsm-onster]

Mike I saw your thread on the link forums. Sorry abotu the setback. I wonder why the gasket blew with e85??? 21degrees advance isnot that bad with e85 at mearly 25psi. Would your 1992 happen to be a 7-bolt? If not then I think it's a freak thing that occured and you should swap in another composite, copperspray and go back to work.

Just a walbro inline 255....Ive got a intank 255 rewired but Im afraid with E-85 and the boost im wanting to run, Im gonna need the second pump for extra insurance....I may also be switching my 1000cc to 1600cc's.....

ExtrememPSI sells a walbro 255 inline for $119 and since Im running -6an fuel lines, I have to buy the -6an fittings which are $8.....So $127 total for the inline pump because I have already run the -6an lines....I figure its worth it just to have that extra insurance.....Everything I have ever heard or read was that if you run two pumps(1 intank and 1 inline) the pumps need to be the same size....

-Kevin-

You're possibly will need more flow than what the walbro 255 series configuration can give you for your goal with e85. AMS did a test of fuel flow at various pressures and with various configurations. And your desired configuration at 43.5 psi base fuel pressure and 35psi boost will flow 284LPH or enough to max out four 1180cc injectors. You need about 30* more fuel for e85 vs. gasoline. So 1180cc injectors with e85 is like 828cc injectors with gasoline. I think you'll need more fuel a 10 second pass with FWD or you will break the axles for sure (good 60ft with a fwd will make up for gobbs of power needed to 'catch up').

It's something that may work given so many variable affect BSFC, but I would go for a twin intake walbros setup in parallel any day over that set up. At the total fuel line pressure required for 35 psi, you're looking at over 400LPH flow with a parallel intank setup. 460LPH with a parallel inline setup.

 

[Aaron91RS]

e85 will blow up headgaskets and blocks way before it detonates.

21* is a lot of timing for a DSM. Not because it will detonate, but you're firing off the spark plug twice as early as someone running gas. Piston is still trying to go up while combustion is creating some insane pressure. I can see it happening.

I'm scared mine will do the same thing.
I want to do e85 on my hx40 also.
I'm also in MO.
...scarey

 

[420a-t]

25psi and 20 degrees of timing with meth injction on 91 octane for me, and I see little to no knock (less than 1 degree). But, I am spraying a lot of meth in.

 

[Mike1992]

Mike I saw your thread on the link forums. Sorry abotu the setback. I wonder why the gasket blew with e85??? 21degrees advance isnot that bad with e85 at mearly 25psi. Would your 1992 happen to be a 7-bolt? If not then I think it's a freak thing that occured and you should swap in another composite, copperspray and go back to work.

It's understandable, I was pushing the car pretty hard that night. Back to back highway tuning pulls. The car is a 6-bolt Eagle/Ross setup with std arp.s and an OEM head gasket. Gonna put the car on hold till spring time, I'll be back, it'll just be a while.

 

[b00stedtalon2]

I sold off my HX52 setup from the black 92 a while ago. I'll be back in the Holset game soon with an HX40

 

[turbodsm18]

Mike I saw your thread on the link forums. Sorry abotu the setback. I wonder why the gasket blew with e85??? 21degrees advance isnot that bad with e85 at mearly 25psi. Would your 1992 happen to be a 7-bolt? If not then I think it's a freak thing that occured and you should swap in another composite, copperspray and go back to work.



You're possibly will need more flow than what the walbro 255 series configuration can give you for your goal with e85. AMS did a test of fuel flow at various pressures and with various configurations. And your desired configuration at 43.5 psi base fuel pressure and 35psi boost will flow 284LPH or enough to max out four 1180cc injectors. You need about 30* more fuel for e85 vs. gasoline. So 1180cc injectors with e85 is like 828cc injectors with gasoline. I think you'll need more fuel a 10 second pass with FWD or you will break the axles for sure (good 60ft with a fwd will make up for gobbs of power needed to 'catch up').

It's something that may work given so many variable affect BSFC, but I would go for a twin intake walbros setup in parallel any day over that set up. At the total fuel line pressure required for 35 psi, you're looking at over 400LPH flow with a parallel intank setup. 460LPH with a parallel inline setup.

Thank You for the info....At this point, the car wont see 35 psi....When it comes time, I would put a fuel cell and external pump in before I did a dual intank.....Not to mention, for the price of the "full blown twin intank pump kit" I think there are much better options.....But once again, I really appreciate your info, it does help a ton.....

I will have three sets of axles, all stock replacements with lifetime warranty's....This way I can have one set on the car, if one breaks, i can throw another one on, if it breaks, I can throw the 3rd set on and drive the car home from the track....Thats not a worry at all......The car is running 15x8 rotas with MT 24.5 slicks.....I am on a stock tranny but have plans when that grenades....For some reason though, I really dont want to make the switch to AWD.....Just to much shit that can break at high HP....Just my opinion of course......

 

[GST95]

FWIW, ive been running e85 for almost 3 years now and havent blown a head gasket with stock head bolts and gasket. timing in the 20-23* range.

I have a set of L19 head studs that will be going in since the car is down for the winter though, along with some other things that i should have upgraded already.

I also dont think the twin intank sending units are worth the money, but if you do your own its not too bad. Im running intank and inline in series, but will probably either have to add another inline parallel to the one i got now, or reconfigure my lines to running what i have in parallel instead. I went with the series setup because i had to turn my base pressure up to 50psi with 30+psi boost and that setup doesnt lose much volume at high pressure. I shouldnt need to do that now.

 

[JWoodley]

I'm in the process of installing my Full Blown Dual 255HP setup with -10an feed, -10an filter, and -6an return.

This pump/feed setup paired with the FIC 1650s should more than support my goals....for now. I guess I should start a build blog to document this build. I'm headed to work on the longblock now. Prepping for the Saturn alternator swap.

 

[dsm-onster]

21* is a lot of timing for a DSM. Not because it will detonate, but you're firing off the spark plug twice as early as someone running gas. Piston is still trying to go up while combustion is creating some insane pressure. I can see it happening.

No 21 degrees timing is about 10-15% earlier than stock timing before TDC at peak flow.

 

[Aaron91RS]

yeah stock timing, but whose getting away with stock timing on pump gas and a big turbo.
I know I wasn't.
Most big boosted 93 octane cars are running 8-12*

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Mike I saw your thread on the link forums. Sorry abotu the setback. I wonder why the gasket blew with e85??? 21degrees advance isnot that bad with e85 at mearly 25psi. Would your 1992 happen to be a 7-bolt? If not then I think it's a freak thing that occured and you should swap in another composite, copperspray and go back to work.



You're possibly will need more flow than what the walbro 255 series configuration can give you for your goal with e85. AMS did a test of fuel flow at various pressures and with various configurations. And your desired configuration at 43.5 psi base fuel pressure and 35psi boost will flow 284LPH or enough to max out four 1180cc injectors. You need about 30* more fuel for e85 vs. gasoline. So 1180cc injectors with e85 is like 828cc injectors with gasoline. I think you'll need more fuel a 10 second pass with FWD or you will break the axles for sure (good 60ft with a fwd will make up for gobbs of power needed to 'catch up').

It's something that may work given so many variable affect BSFC, but I would go for a twin intake walbros setup in parallel any day over that set up. At the total fuel line pressure required for 35 psi, you're looking at over 400LPH flow with a parallel intank setup. 460LPH with a parallel inline setup.

So, would it be better to get one of those dual intake setups or just one large fuel pump? Reason i ask is because i currently have a 255HP and was hoping to run 1600's on 93 or on a 97 octane at the track. Also, i run 6an lines from the pump to the fuel rail. What should i do?

James

 

[dsm-onster]

What's your goal? And what fuel?

yeah stock timing, but whose getting away with stock timing on pump gas and a big turbo.
I know I wasn't.
Most big boosted 93 octane cars are running 8-12*

Race gas tunes are this high and no blown headgaskets(similar burn rate to ethanol but more energy released). My pumpgas tune with water injection was this high with no blown head gasket (similar burn rate to ethanol but more energy released). Other e85 tunes are this high with no blown headgasket . It's not the fuel that blew his headgasket. And it's not the timing advance.

Timing advance increases cylinder pressure and slow burn rates decrease it. Matching the timing to the burn rate is how you get the most power. Pumpgas burns very much faster than ethanol. Thus you need less timing to achieve similar cylinder pressures. Any more and you get detonation anyway. I've never blown a headgasket without a string of knock using Mike's exact head to block setup. Knock is 3-4 times the peak cylinder pressure. Timing advance kills headgaskets when it is too high for the fuel and thus detonates. Not because his cylinder pressure was too high during normal power stroke activity. IF that's the case then his motor was seeing over 500ft-lbs of torque. I've seen 1 or 2 6-bolt arp setups out of over 50 that have lifted a head at 500ft-lbs.. Torque and cylinder pressure are directly proportional. I seriously doubt his setup was outputting this much torque at his boost level.

I do suspect that like many of us the gasket seating and or gasket itself was botched but an anomaly, like accidently improper torque sequencing or staging, improper retorquing after cooldown, foreign material between the head/block or bolt threads (oil under the bolt in the block), or just a bad gasket. It's happened to me more than twice. Once I had a blade of fresh cut grass blow up into the engine bay apparently, and settled between the head and gasket while I was installing it. It showed great compression for about 200miles before I pushed my 18g past 26psi. After swapping the gasket in a garage with no wind and no grass in sight with the exact same clamps and gasket brand/model, no issues to the limit of the turbo.

I'll admit that none of the recent posts, including mine, are related to holsets

 

[turbodsm18]

What's your goal? And what fuel?



Race gas tunes are this high and no blown headgaskets(similar burn rate to ethanol but more energy released). My pumpgas tune with water injection was this high with no blown head gasket (similar burn rate to ethanol but more energy released). Other e85 tunes are this high with no blown headgasket . It's not the fuel that blew his headgasket. And it's not the timing advance.

Timing advance increases cylinder pressure and slow burn rates decrease it. Matching the timing to the burn rate is how you get the most power. Pumpgas burns very much faster than ethanol. Thus you need less timing to achieve similar cylinder pressures. Any more and you get detonation anyway. I've never blown a headgasket without a string of knock using Mike's exact head to block setup. Knock is 3-4 times the peak cylinder pressure. Timing advance kills headgaskets when it is too high for the fuel and thus detonates. Not because his cylinder pressure was too high during normal power stroke activity. IF that's the case then his motor was seeing over 500ft-lbs of torque. I've seen 1 or 2 6-bolt arp setups out of over 50 that have lifted a head at 500ft-lbs.. Torque and cylinder pressure are directly proportional. I seriously doubt his setup was outputting this much torque at his boost level.

I do suspect that like many of us the gasket seating and or gasket itself was botched but an anomaly, like accidently improper torque sequencing or staging, improper retorquing after cooldown, foreign material between the head/block or bolt threads (oil under the bolt in the block), or just a bad gasket. It's happened to me more than twice. Once I had a blade of fresh cut grass blow up into the engine bay apparently, and settled between the head and gasket while I was installing it. IT showed great compressor for about 200miles before I pushed my 18g past 26psi. After swapping the gasket in a garage with no wind and no grass in sight with the exact same clamps and gasket brand/model, no issues to the limit of the turbo.

I'll admit that none of the recent posts, including mine, are related to holsets

I have to agree here on the improper re torquing....I was helping Mike on his car when he re torqued the head....It wasnt till after the head was re torqued that the gasket started leaking....

Id say throw another oem gasket back on it, and run the piss out of it....

-Kevin-

 

[dsm-onster]

IF you follow the procedure for arp studs correctly (molylube, cleanned up threads w/ no oil contamination, 3 low torque stages and then the final about 40ft-lbs more) you won't even need to retorque them.

I really like copper spray. I didn't use it during the first half of my 4g63 experience. But I now seam to get away with more knock before the gasket lets out. The last bout, I actually got away with cracking all 4 of my pistons and the gasket didn't blow. The fire rings were egg shapped, but the 6bolt arps and fel-pro composite gasket held on. Low compression resulted from the cracked ring lands.

 

[ihatedsms]

Hey guys i finally got the 2 clamps so i can bolt up my BEP housing to my turbo. I clocked the turbo, shaved, smoothed out, and painted the compressor cover, then ceramic coated the exhaust housing flat black. Purrrdy huh?

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[VETTE_50_TH]

Looks very clean. I hope it matches the theme under the hood!

DSM-onster, im looking for a 10 sec timeslip and around 450-500 hp for right now. May change later, but i dont want to redo any work.

James

 

[dsm-onster]

I think you should run one large pump that flows more than the 255 of you want much more than your goal. It's an easier install, IMHO.

Ihatedsms, that thing is b_e_a_utiful.

 

[Slippi84]

I think you should run one large pump that flows more than the 255 of you want much more than your goal. It's an easier install, IMHO.

Ihatedsms, that thing is b_e_a_utiful.

I agree this is why I will be running this bad boy

Aeromotive Inc. - High-Performance Fuel Systems & Fuel Pumps

A1000 on steroids

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

I agree this is why I will be running this bad boy

Aeromotive Inc. - High-Performance Fuel Systems & Fuel Pumps

A1000 on steroids

How are you going to be installing this. Are you running a SS fuel tank with a (i forget the word) <- a chamber to hold the fuel lower . Sorry i forget the word im am thinking of. Basically its so you can use those types of pumps rather than a regular wally style pump.

Or are you running that inline?

James

 

[Weapon-X]

(i forget the word) <- a chamber to hold the fuel lower . Sorry i forget the word im am thinking of.


James

Sump.

 

[Slippi84]

How are you going to be installing this. Are you running a SS fuel tank with a (i forget the word) <- a chamber to hold the fuel lower . Sorry i forget the word im am thinking of. Basically its so you can use those types of pumps rather than a regular wally style pump.

Or are you running that inline?

James

Your talking about a surge tank and no I'm not using one of those. I"m mounting it to brackets directly to my fuel cell just like alex did with his setup with -10an line.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Your talking about a surge tank and no I'm not using one of those. I"m mounting it to brackets directly to my fuel cell just like alex did with his setup with -10an line.

Any photos of this?

Sump.

Yes. Thank you. I just could not think of that word.

James

 

[RyAn007]

I havent been able to find this, what is the highest whp number produced by the hx35 with the stock t3 housing so far?

 

[dsm-onster]

No one on here has run the hx35 with the stock housing yet and produced a dyno. TimG has a track time and MPH, I believe with nearly stock weight. Before switching the compressor to the 60mm hx40 wheel. I can't remember which compressor he had, the 7-blade or 8-blade. It will make a big difference in results as the hx35 turbine wheel with the stock turbine housing flows well enough with a nondivided manifold to trap over 130mph with a stock weight car.

 

[RyAn007]

Well I have a 7blade, do you know what his times were?