Holset Turbos, PART 3

[Slippi84]

Welding in a divider is not really an option. Because the 1 & 4 runners need to be coupled to one side. Then the 2 & 3 runners need to be coupled to the right. The whole manifold will have to be butchered for you to do this. Better to start off with a new manifold altogether.

TimG runs a 1g turbo now. And he runs the stock 12cm holset housing with an undivided manifold. That is why his spool is slow. But because the housing is in effect larger, it has good topend from the logs.

I still say go for the small bep housing, if you can get it with a t3 inlet flange. The hx40 turbine is just so efficient. The flow is there and the spool is leaps better than a gt35r with a similar undivided turbine housing. Remember 650whp, hx40, small bep housing!

But, the .70 a/r housing is likely going to yield higher pumpgas numbers.

Exactly and I am limited as it is. I want good pump gas numbers. To be honest a street car that makes crappy pump gas numbers and grest race gas numers is useless. I run 93 93% of the time why tune and build for the 7%. I'll probably only be able to tune for like 15psi and I don't think a .55ar will yeild enough power at that boost level.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

Exactly and I am limited as it is. I want good pump gas numbers. To be honest a street car that makes crappy pump gas numbers and grest race gas numers is useless. I run 93 93% of the time why tune and build for the 7%. I'll probably only be able to tune for like 15psi and I don't think a .55ar will yeild enough power at that boost level.

What are you saying and why are you deadbeating on a 0.70 A/R housing? Everyone has their own purpose for what they want to do and if the 0.55 A/R is not up to your standards then the HX35/HX40 is not the turbo for you.

 

[Slippi84]

What are you saying and why are you deadbeating on a 0.70 A/R housing? Everyone has their own purpose for what they want to do and if the 0.55 A/R is not up to your standards then the HX35/HX40 is not the turbo for you.

WHose debating? If you check my profile and read what I have said you will understand. The .55ar comment is just rediculous and closeminded. There are a bunch of housing options as many have shown so you saying everyone without a .55ar should sell their turbo The .55ar isn't a good option forme because 1 I don't have a 4g63 so the whole bolt on thing isn't a advantage to me. Two even though I can get a t3 version the smaller ar housing takes more boost to make the same amout of power as a .70ar housing. I am high compression 10:5:1 and I can only run so much boost on pump before detonation because of this so the .70ar is a little better a choice I think for my setup. If I had a divided manifold I would do what ceedawg said with the 14cm divided housing but shoulda coulda woulda.

 

[ceedawg]

I still say go for the small bep housing, if you can get it with a t3 inlet flange. The hx40 turbine is just so efficient. The flow is there and the spool is leaps better than a gt35r with a similar undivided turbine housing. Remember 650whp, hx40, small bep housing!

But, the .70 a/r housing is likely going to yield higher pumpgas numbers.

Not saying that it is'nt but where is your info on the spool being so much better than a GT35r turbo with (XX A/R) divided housing? Are we talking about divided mani or an open mani as well?
And where is the dyno with the 650whp car using that housing with an HX40?
I'd like to see it and I'd like to look at the power curve.

 

[dsm-onster]

Not saying that it is'nt but where is your info on the spool being so much better than a GT35r turbo with (XX A/R) divided housing?

I'm talking both turbos having non-divided housings. A divided housing changes everything . . .The small bep hx40 spools faster than a .63 a/r open housing gt35r. Thegt35r spools about 300rpms later from the ride in a gt35r powered 2.0 car with 272s and homemade SMIM. We all know of the hx40 spool speeds in the small bep housing. And the hx40 in the small bep housing is good for 650whp. That dyno graph compares the gt30r to the 6blade hx40 in the small bep housing. Notice the power curve matches up to 55mph. A much more affordable turbo than the gt35r with at least the same potential and faster spool with the same setup. All with the open gt35r report spool up after 4000rpms. Most say by 4500rpms.

 

[ceedawg]

I'm talking both turbos having non-divided housings. A divided housing changes everything . . .The small bep hx40 spools faster than a .63 a/r open housing gt35r. Thegt35r spools about 300rpms later from the ride in a gt35r powered 2.0 car with 272s and homemade SMIM. We all know of the hx40 spool speeds in the small bep housing. And the hx40 in the small bep housing is good for 650whp. That dyno graph compares the gt30r to the 6blade hx40 in the small bep housing. Notice the power curve matches up to 55mph. A much more affordable turbo than the gt35r with at least the same potential and faster spool with the same setup. All with the open gt35r report spool up after 4000rpms. Most say by 4500rpms.

OK! But you know to get 650whp out of the HX40 with that .55A/R turbine housing the boost was cranked wayyyy the hell up. You do know that right?

To me that spells to much heat ,back pressure,and potential detonation issues. One can make the same hp reliably using a bigger housing and running less boost using a bigger housing. I guess this could also be a matter of preference,however I'm also into efficiency and reliability.
Seems like a lot of the BW guys are against using the .55A/R housings on the BW turbos as I stated b4.
If I'm wrong no problem ,just correct me as I'm here eager to learn as well.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

I'm talking both turbos having non-divided housings. A divided housing changes everything . . .The small bep hx40 spools faster than a .63 a/r open housing gt35r. Thegt35r spools about 300rpms later from the ride in a gt35r powered 2.0 car with 272s and homemade SMIM. We all know of the hx40 spool speeds in the small bep housing. And the hx40 in the small bep housing is good for 650whp. That dyno graph compares the gt30r to the 6blade hx40 in the small bep housing. Notice the power curve matches up to 55mph. A much more affordable turbo than the gt35r with at least the same potential and faster spool with the same setup. All with the open gt35r report spool up after 4000rpms. Most say by 4500rpms.

It amazing that the car can 40 psi. on HX40 with a stock head and assuming not a stroker block.

 

[Slippi84]

Not saying that it is'nt but where is your info on the spool being so much better than a GT35r turbo with (XX A/R) divided housing? Are we talking about divided mani or an open mani as well?
And where is the dyno with the 650whp car using that housing with an HX40?
I'd like to see it and I'd like to look at the power curve.

Hx Working - Hx40 vs Gt3076r dyno chart hx@40psi and gt30 @30psi. DSMtuners Gallery

I checked his profile keep this in mind this was with a t3 vesrion of the bolt on. I didn't really look into it before but I'm gonna have to wave the bs flag monster on people using a bolt on housing getting full boost by 4k. This stroker setup got it at 4400 and he was tuned.

 

[ceedawg]

DO they have a graph showing the rpm's? Well perhaps does not matter so much showing mph.

BUT

I also notice the HX40 is running 10lbs of boost more than the GT turbo they are dynoing.WTF

Basiclly that graph is showing me that in order to spool up like a Gt30 YOU Have to run 40psi of boost to only 30 psi on the GT30 turbo. How is this a good comparison as far as spool up is concerned?

What happens if you run 40psi on the GT30 then? And what size was the turbine hsing on the GT30? I think you mentioned a .63 A/R hsing on the GT35r.

I still say go divided all the way and you will have a superior setup vs a HX40 with a bullseye .55AR setup but it will cost a few extra $$$$.

 

[Slippi84]

DO they have a graph showing the rpm's? Well perhaps does not matter so much showing mph.

BUT

I also notice the HX40 is running 10lbs of boost more than the GT turbo they are dynoing.WTF

Basiclly that graph is showing me that in order to spool up like a Gt30 YOU Have to run 40psi of boost to only 30 psi on the GT30 turbo. How is this a good comparison as far as spool up is concerned?

What happens if you run 40psi on the GT30 then? And what size was the turbine hsing on the GT30? I think you mentioned a .63 A/R hsing on the GT35r.

I still say go divided all the way and you will have a superior setup vs a HX40 with a bullseye .55AR setup but it will cost a few extra $$$$.

Well spool won't really change from 30 to 40psi between turbos' but hp will and I too noticed that and thought hmmm. The housings are $185 or something like that I"m just gonna go .70ar and if spool isn't good enough then I"ll get the smaller .55ar. I know the .70ar will take care of my power needs and power before spool within moderation right now in my book.

 

[Slippi84]

Welding in a divider is not really an option. Because the 1 & 4 runners need to be coupled to one side. Then the 2 & 3 runners need to be coupled to the right. The whole manifold will have to be butchered for you to do this. Better to start off with a new manifold altogether.

TimG runs a 1g turbo now. And he runs the stock 12cm holset housing with an undivided manifold. That is why his spool is slow. But because the housing is in effect larger, it has good topend from the logs.

I still say go for the small bep housing, if you can get it with a t3 inlet flange. The hx40 turbine is just so efficient. The flow is there and the spool is leaps better than a gt35r with a similar undivided turbine housing. Remember 650whp, hx40, small bep housing!

But, the .70 a/r housing is likely going to yield higher pumpgas numbers.

I have a obx ram horn style so it's natrually seperated left and right but then comes into a collector. How effective would it be if I welded a seperator in there

 

[ceedawg]

I have a obx ram horn style so it's natrually seperated left and right but then comes into a collector. How effective would it be if I welded a seperator in there

You can't do it with that manifold. Impossible!! You need to take a good look at how a divided exh manifold is built. Runners 1 and 4 need to meet and merge at the collector and be separated from the runners leaving both cyl 2 & 3 at the collector. The division happens in the collector where runners 2&3 are separated from runners 1 & 4.

Well spool won't really change from 30 to 40psi between turbos' but hp will and I too noticed that and thought hmmm. .

I don't know if that is necessarily tru!!

 

[T9S1i]

I dont think you would be able to weld a divider in there. You would want a divided flange with the runners meeting at a nice angle and made for the divided flange, not just shoving a piece of metal in there to divide them, it will make the exhaust flow turblent and probably would ultimately hurt performance.

I was under the impression you would want 1/4 together and 2/3 together to keep the exhaust pulses together. That manifold has 1/2 together and 3/4 together, so it wouldnt work if you wanted to put a divider in there.

EDIT***
you beat me to it while i was typing ceedawg!

 

[Slippi84]

Got ya well I figured as much just thought it was worth posting the pictures. Def going with the t3 .70ar

 

[Steve93Talon]

checked his profile keep this in mind this was with a t3 vesrion of the bolt on. I didn't really look into it before but I'm gonna have to wave the bs flag monster on people using a bolt on housing getting full boost by 4k. This stroker setup got it at 4400 and he was tuned.

We have AEM logs showing full boost (30+psi) by 4k on a bolt-on HX40 on a 2.0 with a JMF race SMIM and FP2s.

 

[JWoodley]

Look at my dyno chart and see when I get full spool. This is on stock IM, stock cams, stock block. I don't 4k is happening on a 2.0, but my tune sucked balls.

EDIT: I'd say 5200-5400.

 

[Slippi84]

We have AEM logs showing full boost (30+psi) by 4k on a bolt-on HX40 on a 2.0 with a JMF race SMIM and FP2s.

[email protected] send them logs my way or if you can post em post. Because NO ONE has shown 4k full boost yet. Not even the guy who made 650whp and again we're talking t3 .55ar not mitsu .55ar. How much power id yo make with tha 30 psi by 4k log and how did you know it was at full boost?

Sorry but after looking around I gotta wave the BS flag

 

[ceedawg]

[email protected] send them logs my way or if you can post em post. Because NO ONE has shown 4k full boost yet. Not even the guy who made 650whp and again we're talking t3 .55ar not mitsu .55ar. How much power id yo make with tha 30 psi by 4k log and how did you know it was at full boost?

Sorry but after looking around I gotta wave the BS flag

In that lil turbine hsing I'd say it's indeed possible.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

In that lil turbine hsing I'd say it's indeed possible.

BEP said it would get full spool anywhere between 3600-4000 so maybe it is true but I haven't yet come close to 4000.

 

[Slippi84]

In that lil turbine hsing I'd say it's indeed possible.

A duall BB 50 trim(much smaller compressor) doesn't get full boost till like 4k in bolt on housing so untill someone can show me 4k full boost dyno pulls I'm sorry it's just a lot to swallow.

 

[Slippi84]

BEP said it would get full spool anywhere between 3600-4000 so maybe it is true but I haven't yet come close to 4000.

The fact they said 3600-4k like 4k is slow makes me think they're really full of it cause no way a 65lb/min turbo is hitting full boost at 3600 on a 2.0 motor

 

[1gDSM4g63]

The fact they said 3600-4k like 4k is slow makes me think they're really full of it cause no way a 65lb/min turbo is hitting full boost at 3600 on a 2.0 motor

Yeah, I agree. When I first bought the HX40 I didn't expect a huge-ass turbo to show up at my door and the sole purpose of buy it was because of what BEP told me. I guess it was my fault too that didn't dig deep enough for the specs. However, HX40 is a pretty good turbo as it is now but I'll be even more happy if it is capable of hitting full spool at 4k.

 

[Slippi84]

Yeah, I agree. When I first bought the HX40 I didn't expect a huge-ass to show up at my door turbo and the sole purpose of buy it was because of what BEP told me. I guess that was my fault too that didn't dig deep enough for the specs. However, HX40 is a pretty good turbo as it is now but I'll be even more happy if it is capable of hitting full spool at 4k.

If someone can prove to me that the housing has consistantly run and hit 4k full boost I would run meth and get the housing to run more psi and get it over the .70ar but all I hear is people are doing it but no one has proof

 

[dsm-onster]

DO they have a graph showing the rpm's? Well perhaps does not matter so much showing mph.

BUT

I also notice the HX40 is running 10lbs of boost more than the GT turbo they are dynoing.WTF

Basiclly that graph is showing me that in order to spool up like a Gt30 YOU Have to run 40psi of boost to only 30 psi on the GT30 turbo. How is this a good comparison as far as spool up is concerned?

What happens if you run 40psi on the GT30 then? And what size was the turbine hsing on the GT30? I think you mentioned a .63 A/R hsing on the GT35r.

I still say go divided all the way and you will have a superior setup vs a HX40 with a bullseye .55AR setup but it will cost a few extra $$$$.

The gt30 compressor can't hold 40psi. It was maxed out at 550whp. Here's a gt3076r compressor map. There's no way it could flow enough for much more and still hold 40psi by just 6K.

A turbo doesn't spool faster just because you raised the boost.

Slippi I'd wait for Steve to email you the logs or show us. Why is this so hard to believe? Arnt BW turbos doing the same thing? Look at the s256-258 turbos. . . BB turbos don't provide that much quicker spool. The bb center cartridge helps but it's no revolution. Compressor efficiency and turbine efficiency is the name of the game. The 50-trim uses 70s aerodynamics. Badman21, who posted the dynograph of the hx40 whipping the gt30r didn't post any spool numbers. For all we know it could be faster. Andy4g63 runs 280s (which kill spool speed) and a .70 a/r housing and he is seeing full boost before 4700rpms. Let Steve give you the logs. . . Better yet, it would be great for him to put it up here. But considering he tuned Torts 20g car, I don't think he's boasting an ideolgy.

EDIT: Look at it this way, My h1c has a turbine wheel with larger specs than a 50-trim turbine wheel (t3stage3). It also has a compressor wheel larger than a 50-trim in major diameter with about the same size inducer. Yet I reach 22+ psi by 3400rpms with my 272 style cams (laggier than stock cams). When does a BB50trim reach full boost? The small 16g did no better. Holset and Borg-Warner are doing something these other manufacturers arn't. Why wouldn't Holset pour the same tech in my OLDER h1c into the newer hx40? A very efficient turbine and compressor can yield dramatically better spool speed, because less exhaust energy is needed to drive it to a certain boost threshold.

 

[GORBS88]

Believe what you want!!!

Right now i am running the HX40 6 blade in the bigger T3 .70 A/R housing WITH 272 cams and i get 20 psi at 4400 RPM. I can't log so theres no proof on (paper) per say but that's how well it spools.
When i ran it with the bolt on housing i got 20psi by 4000 WITH 272's.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!