Holset Turbos, PART 3

[Steve93Talon]

Was'nt that the case with Steve's car? He had the stck tranny,never broke it,ran 11's.

Yep, only problem with mine was old beat synchros that weren't happy about WOT 1-2 shifts toward the end. Tort's car was still on the stock trans running back to back to back 11.0s awhile ago. They're not as fragile as people seem to think.

 

[Slippi84]

Yep, only problem with mine was old beat synchros that weren't happy about WOT 1-2 shifts toward the end. Tort's car was still on the stock trans running back to back to back 11.0s awhile ago. They're not as fragile as people seem to think.

Isn't 500whp more like 10.8 though. I know awddynamite(fwd 420a) ran 11.09 with 440whp.

 

[ceedawg]

Isn't 500whp more like 10.8 though. I know awddynamite(fwd 420a) ran 11.09 with 440whp.

They have guys running mid 11's with 360whp so I don't think HP always equates to times in reality.

 

[Slippi84]

They have guys running mid 11's with 360whp so I don't think HP always equates to times in reality.

So true but I just figured someone like Tort is good enough that he could have went faster than 11.0 with 500whp which is what we were talking about but w/e.

GORBS88 how does the hx40 like the meth. I'm thinking about running that with my setup to alow me to run more boost.

 

[dsm-onster]

Tort was a "balls to the wall" driver. I bet he rev matched every shift and his syncros never saw the work . 375+ whp with an AWD chassis should put you in the 11s. Too many do it for it not to be a given. 128+ mph with an AWD is DEFINATELY over 500whp. GORBS88 has a good thing going.

My h1c really loves pure water injection. Adding meth doesn't really do too much for it. Any more than running much lower octane isopropynol. The cool charge was a plus to my gut (insurance), but not to my loggings. It likes boost and is efficient already. So any knock retardant will help. Pure water is easier to come by and no real difference was noticed in this setup.

The hx40 is different, but the same engineering goes into it: diesel high load engine with surge issues, lots of flow neccesary to cap emmisions, and BIG boost to allow a smaller engine / lower rpms to be used for maintaining some symblance of fuel economy.

 

[GORBS88]

Mixing over 500whp and a stock tranny! After you replace the transmission, are you going to get her dynoed? (I hope)

HEHE, well for now i think i am going to put another stocker in but WITH a welded center diff.
Now with the welded center diff would that hold the power like a VCE and allow me to dyno FWD?
There is a dyno close by and if that welded diff would allow me to remove the t-case then i will dyno but if not then i will have to wait since there are NO AWD dynos around.

Just wondering if there would be too much stress on the center diff?

 

[blcknspo0ln]

Nope sorry i am running a m10+ m3, should of been more clear.

Sorry for being really OT, I just wanted to ask why the rational for running the extra nozzle? Was there a tuning stump you ran into? The reason I ask is because I have been contemplating on if I need to run a dual nozzle on my setup for over 28 psi.

on topic: anyone have a log of these hx40's? I haven't kept up on these mega-threads, but some of the numbers tossed around with this turbo are catching my eyes

 

[T9S1i]

gorbs i believe you can drop the t-case with a welded diff. I run one too and i was always under the assumption that you could.

Its either stock diff and you slap on a VCE to dyno in FWD mode, or you have a welded diff and you just drop the t-case and go.

I always thought what it would be like to drop it and drive around in WWD mode and do burnouts everywhere, it would be a fun way to get rid of some tires before i changed em out... haha

 

[Slippi84]

What size wastegate are most of the hx40 guys using. My manifold is flanged for a four bolt style 40mm but Im wondering if it will creep at higher rpms as boost controll is very important because my setup is gonna be on the edge and too much boost will be VERY bad . I was thinking about picking up a 44 or 46mm v-band setup and replacing the 40mm flange with a vband hook up but I'm not gonna go threw all that is a 40mm off the collector will work. Here's a pick of my manifold just for reference.

 

[andy4g63]

Most of the times, does not matter, how big WG is. The boost creep in most cases is due to manifold design, not WG size. But we all know that most of the designs are made, due to fitment/rad. power steering,etc/, so even if you have 60mm, you still might have creep. Recently I spoke with TIAL rep and he told me that. Your mani, looks similar to Full-Race for example, but it is safe to say that you might get 1-2psi creep, cause that WG tube is coming 90* off the collector, when it should be facing down towards the flow, to make it easier for exhaust gases to diverted to WG, instead going to the turbine wheel.


I have three cases:

myself with ERL mani Tial 44
two of my friends, one with Shearer T3, other one Full-Race T4, both with Tial 44.
All of us get a Little creep, mine is 1PSI, which is considered normal/ but I run only 22 psi. Theirs is like 3 PSI more in 4, than 3 gear/but both of them are race cars, running 38-39PSI/.

 

[Mr Peepers]

A major factor to creep is the target boost level. The lower the boost the more likely it is to creep.

Just a shot in the dark but I doubt you'll have any creep issues with an hx40 and 40mm external gate off the collector at anything over 15 psi.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

A major factor to creep is the target boost level. The lower the boost the more likely it is to creep.

Just a shot in the dark but I doubt you'll have any creep issues with an hx40 and 40mm external gate off the collector at anything over 15 psi.

I second that, there is no need to go 44 mm or 40 mm wastegate. A 38 mm will be good for 40 psi of boost.

 

[We're on Boost]

Have you guys figured out, why is it that the HX35 compressor map shown a ways back in this thread shows max .38 kg/sec at PR of about 3, but on the Holset page for the HX35 they say "capable of providing up to 0.46 kg/s at 3.0:1 pressure ratio". Heck that's about 60 lbs/min. That compressor map looks awful funky and there are no efficiency numbers or rpm numbers on it. Do you know of a better compressor map around somewhere?

Gary

 

[dsm-onster]

No, we don't know why. All the hx35 maps show 50-53 lbs/min. This one here is an hx35 compressor map verified by a turbocummins group as coming from a holset engineer. This one is all over the web. Those rpm curves are not corrected.

And here...

...is another one from the Holset Hx35/35W Product Information Sheet. I think to which you were referring. 0.38kg/sec X 60 X 2.2046 = 50lb/min.

Here is another from Morphius, who started these threads. This is from a Cummins engineer as well. You can take the cfm, lb/min, kg/sec info from the othe holset printed maps and come up with a conversion of their cfm to lbs/min based on their temp used of 85*F and 14.425psi atmosphere. The conversion is CFM X 0.07333 = lbs/min. This 705cfm map converts to 52lbs/min.

The official one is for an hx30e compressor wheel showing 53lb/min. The part numbers are the same and the same compressor housing is used between the 2 turbos. And you can see the first map and this show very similar topography:

 

[Slippi84]

I know there are threads on how to read a map and what not but to be honest I never really cared for them as they are a technical man's tool for choosing a turbo. I am not a tech man . I look at a turbo I look at what it has done on a consistant basis and what people that own it seem to think and a little comon sense and then I go from there. The holset turbos are known for being more effecient they have been making good power on just about every setup I have seen properly setup and tuned. On ething I see is garret guys and FP guys constatly trying to go bigger and bigger, I have yet to see a hx40 guy that is trying to go bigger because he feels he doesn't have enough turbo. Look in the classifieds there are 3065's gt35rs gt3076's 20g's 16g's but not a lot of holset turbos at all.

 

[Steve93Talon]

We have AEM logs showing full boost (30+psi) by 4k on a bolt-on HX40 on a 2.0 with a JMF race SMIM and FP2s.

Carl can't find his old logs, if he comes across them I'll have him post them up. Here's another guy's HX40 bolt-on log, DSMlink, FP2s, JMF SMIM, 2G MAF, stock 6 bolt with 7.8:1 compression. As you can see from the BoostEst, full boost is around 4100-4200. This is at about 26-27psi on pump/meth. He ran 11.7 @ 123 before the SMIM on pump/meth. Carl's setup benefited from 8.5:1 pistons and no MAF restriction, which would explain the slightly quicker spool-up on his car.

 

[We're on Boost]

The official one is for an hx30e compressor wheel showing 53lb/min. The part numbers are the same and the same compressor housing is used between the 2 turbos. And you can see the first map and this show very similar topography:

Matt, are you saying that the hx30e and the hx35 use exactly the same compressor wheel?(same part number?)

Thanks,
Gary

 

[dsm-onster]

Yes. Not to be confused with the hx30w. . .

 

[want_a_gsx]

A question to all of you Holset experts:

Can a hx35 be ran with a stock 14B wastegate actuator? E316g? <--Not sure if both are the same...

Thanks in advance!

 

[IPT]

A question to all of you Holset experts:

Can a hx35 be ran with a stock 14B wastegate actuator? E316g? <--Not sure if both are the same...

Thanks in advance!

If you can get it mounted then yes it will work just fine.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well, I went across the bay this weekend (6hr round trip). I did some logs as I went. I run boost at 18-19psi (I make sure I'm under 20 including the 1-2 psi spike) for the street for the sake of temptation. I truly adore the MHI small 16g. I still have it and I don't want to ever sell it. To me, if a turbo breaks, it's an excuse to put it back on. BUT, this Holset H1C has shown over 40lbs/min (41.3). It's simply a better turbo in every aspect including spool and power band. Of course it flows way more than a small 16g. But I'm posting up some screen shots of how this turbo is better than one of the most efficient MHI turbos ever built. I am not negating Mitsubishi Heavy Industries at all, considering my favorite turbo used to be the small 16g. However, at 19 psi this H1C flows more air than the small 16g at 22-23psi. And it spools exactly as fast or faster!!! Remember that this turbo is MUCH bigger, flowing at around the 20g range. But it hits harder, flows more, and spools as fast as a SMALL 16g in th 16g's "sweetspot".

In every log, at nearly every point in positive boost, the maf showed +150hz difference with the Holset H1C. This is the "big" H1C; 1991-1993 **intercooled** Cummins pickup.

There is no difference in my setup between these two logs, except I was running an m7 water injection nozzle. With the H1C, I am running a tiny m3 nozzle (all that was necessary to keep knock at bay). And, of course, the small 16g is run at 23 psi and the H1C at 19psi. As well, the logged run of the small 16g is in December with an intake temp of 70&#730;F. The H1C was logged today at 85&#730;F. So the small 16g has the benefit of lower intake temps. Both were logged on the same stretch of road (same elevation). The small 16g (with the evo3 16g turbine wheel and housing) still flows less than the H1C by 2.5lb/min even with 4 more psi boost (23psi), cooler ambient temps, and the H1C limited to under 20 psi. This shows the better design and potential of the big H1C in the small BEP housing.

1st screenshot is of the small 16g. 2nd is of the H1C. Both 3rd gear pulls:

 

[Slippi84]

Cranyness!!! did you calibrate the link to the point where those flow numbers are pretty close?

 

[dsm-onster]

Oh yes. Dead nuts on target with my lm-1 as the control!

 

[Slippi84]

Why did you choose this rpm because the snap shots only show a 3lb/min difference.

 

[dsm-onster]

Actually, only a 2.5 lb/min difference is shown. BUT! Remember the lower flowing log is of the small 16g at 23psi, 4 psi MORE than the H1C with 15*F cooler intake temps. . .

I'm not immune to the long arm of the law. I was able to run over 7K with the small 16g log because the town policeman let me do it as he monitored the end of the road.

All I could do was 6300rpms in 3rd before having to shut her down. I didn't have my friend protecting everyone around the road. This is the best comparison I could give. The same engine VE at the same RPM. At a level where any 16g has the best chance to perform at its best. Nothing else is really needed.