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FP HTA68, FP2 Cams, & E85

gofer

Moderator
8,077
1,185
Feb 18, 2006
South Gilbert, Arizona
Damn, I haven't been back to this thread in a minute... I came back to it just updating everyone on the dyno news. Since my HP/TQ readings in link were logging anywhere between 380/430 I said 360 on the first pull, it did 342.
We noticed that after the first two pulls coolant was all over the ground, and on the 3rd one we came to the conclusion that my head was lifting and pushing coolant. Sam got it at 352 awhp and the motor only seeing 22psi falling off to 19psi because of a boost leak in my FMIC. .Boost Leak from FMIC core
I needed the car to drive back to San Diego so we pulled it off the dyno and I left RRE happy and disappointed. Happy because now I've got a good 7 bolt head to start building since RRE gave me a core and a new FMIC setup sitting on my bed to fix the FMIC boost leak. Sad, more worried actually, that my car was actually broken and would be down for awhile but luckly the head only lifts under boost so I'm crossing my fingers it lets me DD it until the end of the month when the built head will be ready to drop on.

Next time this things up on RRE dyno I have faith we will be able to get it close to 400 and with that built head 28 to 30psi is what I'm planning on running.

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:dsm:
 

ziggo0

Proven Member
774
7
Oct 13, 2009
La Porte, Indiana
As far as cold starts go, when I ran 100% e85 in my neon (was actually 70/30) I had to let the fuel pump prime before it would start right away. Say it was 20F or colder, turn of the key and turn it over for about 5 seconds then it would choke into life, vs. letting the fuel pump prime completely it would start right away and go straight to idle.
 

gofer

Moderator
8,077
1,185
Feb 18, 2006
South Gilbert, Arizona
As far as cold starts go, when I ran 100% e85 in my neon (was actually 70/30) I had to let the fuel pump prime before it would start right away. Say it was 20F or colder, turn of the key and turn it over for about 5 seconds then it would choke into life, vs. letting the fuel pump prime completely it would start right away and go straight to idle.
I tried activating my fuel pump in link for 60 seconds to see if this would take care of the cold starts, NOPE. I'm not sure why they cold start but I think it has to do with the colder burn of E85...

:dsm:
 

ziggo0

Proven Member
774
7
Oct 13, 2009
La Porte, Indiana
I tried activating my fuel pump in link for 60 seconds to see if this would take care of the cold starts, NOPE. I'm not sure why they cold start but I think it has to do with the colder burn of E85...

:dsm:

That's pretty much what it is. Think of it like this, cold start, fuel that burns cold, 30 ~ 40% more fuel to burn...I wonder if the type/heat level of the plugs you run can affect it? I guess when I let it prime it started up strong instead of weak without the prime.

Edit: I found a video of exactly what my car did if I didn't crank it for a while on a cold e85 start, however it wasn't cold out, but it was a cold start.

May have been a dieing fuel pump (however pressure/afr's were normal) but this is what happened to me on a cold start 9 times outta 10.

YouTube - MOV04510.AVI
 

eazy2g

Proven Member
167
0
Jul 28, 2009
925/510, California
Gofer - why don't you do speed density? you already have the AEM map sensor all you need is the IAT (or IAT) sensor (about $25). One of the evo guys up here gained about 20hp with the conversion. It's kind of debatable though but for $25 i think its worth a try. I'll look for the thread on it.

Here it is. 15 to 20 HP gain - fellow DSMer just did it.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyn...ity-conversion-16g-before-after-pump-gas.html
 
Last edited:

95GSXracer

DSM Wiseman
1,441
196
Jul 25, 2002
LaRue, Ohio
I'd like to see a 68HTA end up on the GF's car, so this thread is relevant to my interests. Thanks for posting up the info.

About the airflow readings, the 41lbs from the 68hta is going to be accurate. A 2.0 car setup at this level (20g+, 272ish cams, etc) at 20 psi almost invariably does 40 lbs/min, so 41 at 21 is right on. The airflow numbers, and consequently the boostest numbers, on the 16g were low because the turbo (turbine) is smaller. Though, I would have expected the EVO3 setup to be closer to 40 lbs than 35, maybe 37-38. None the less, the calculated HP increases matches perfectly with the airflow increase, indicating that the airflow increase is real. Boostest assumes 100% VE, and a small turbo making 2:1+ drive:boost ratios will be somewhat less than that. Far too much faith is put into that calculation, WB vs AFRest is much more reliable IMO. /ramble

What I like about this turbo is that I expect it to be very similar to the EVO Green I had on my 05, and that turbo was simply bad ass for a street car. I don't have the slip on my site but it ran 11.60 at something around 117mph (others have done better), and dynoed 390 whp (mustang) and ~415 wtq. 47 lbs/min with 25 psi at 3900 rpm. :hellyeah: Very hard to beat IMO.
 

gofer

Moderator
8,077
1,185
Feb 18, 2006
South Gilbert, Arizona
I'd like to see a 68HTA end up on the GF's car, so this thread is relevant to my interests. Thanks for posting up the info.

About the airflow readings, the 41lbs from the 68hta is going to be accurate. A 2.0 car setup at this level (20g+, 272ish cams, etc) at 20 psi almost invariably does 40 lbs/min, so 41 at 21 is right on. The airflow numbers, and consequently the boostest numbers, on the 16g were low because the turbo (turbine) is smaller. Though, I would have expected the EVO3 setup to be closer to 40 lbs than 35, maybe 37-38. None the less, the calculated HP increases matches perfectly with the airflow increase, indicating that the airflow increase is real. Boostest assumes 100% VE, and a small turbo making 2:1+ drive:boost ratios will be somewhat less than that. Far too much faith is put into that calculation, WB vs AFRest is much more reliable IMO. /ramble

What I like about this turbo is that I expect it to be very similar to the EVO Green I had on my 05, and that turbo was simply bad ass for a street car. I don't have the slip on my site but it ran 11.60 at something around 117mph (others have done better), and dynoed 390 whp (mustang) and ~415 wtq. 47 lbs/min with 25 psi at 3900 rpm. :hellyeah: Very hard to beat IMO.
Thanks a bunch Kevin. :D The fact that everyone looks down in the engine bay and sees a 16g is funny enough, especially with the numbers its already throwing down. After the new, somewhat built head goes on it I'm hoping for mid 300's for tq and right about 400 awhp running 28psi. Of course thats on E85 though, Cali 91oct would produce A LOT less to the wheels but E85 is what I DD the car with.

:dsm:
 

gofer

Moderator
8,077
1,185
Feb 18, 2006
South Gilbert, Arizona
Hows the mpg for you on E85 Cory. I know mine sucked ass!!
I'm seeing about 220 miles on a tank and when I fill up its around 13ga of Ethanol going back in, what is that about 17miles a gallon average? Not bad driving around San Diego on 105oct Ethanol that costs $2.49ga. :D

:dsm:
 

danl

Proven Member
598
17
Apr 8, 2002
Severn, Maryland
As far as cold starts go, when I ran 100% e85 in my neon (was actually 70/30) I had to let the fuel pump prime before it would start right away. Say it was 20F or colder, turn of the key and turn it over for about 5 seconds then it would choke into life, vs. letting the fuel pump prime completely it would start right away and go straight to idle.


You need to add a LOT of fuel once coolant temps drop below 50 deg F or so. I have to add nearly 3 times more fuel than stock to fire up at 32 deg F. You will need to edit the injector startup pulsewidth to achieve this. You may or may not be able to do this depending on your engine management.

I went out the other weekend on the 68HTA. I ran into some tune issues that I was unable to sort out and then I hurt the transmission. I never could put together a clean pass where it wasn't breaking up for 1 second in the bottom of each gear. Still, pump gas, 22psi, it will spin the tires through 100mph with ease. Mid 10 AFR, less than 10 deg of timing out the top. Its basically a bolt on PTE SCM5031E like i used to run, except bolts on instead of requiring massaging. Its a great turbo if you can get it for under $800 new, more than that and I'd just get an evo 3 16g.

Also, for you stock torque converter auto guys or auto cross cars, it spools quick, very quick. Its the quickest spooling car I've ever owned. The problem if autocrossing would be the massive torque at 3000rpm that will unsettle the car, so you are going to want to account for that in your tune, boost control, or driving.
 

gofer

Moderator
8,077
1,185
Feb 18, 2006
South Gilbert, Arizona
Just wanted to give everyone an update, it looks like I've got a full Saturday ahead of me so I can get this car back up on the dyno and tuned next Friday. :hellyeah:

-VR-Speed FMIC and matte black PC'd short route piping
-FP 4" intake
-AEM 3.5 bar MAP sensor
-ExtremePSI head gasket set
-ARP head studs

The head build included engnbldr SS valves/bronze valve guides/revised lifters, Evo IX springs/retainers, Supertech valve seals, & FP2 Cams.

:dsm:
 

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gofer

Moderator
8,077
1,185
Feb 18, 2006
South Gilbert, Arizona
Just installed everything Sunday and have been working out the bugs all week. Had a FIC 950 go bad after the head/FMIC install, it was only 2 months old too. Then after banishedmunk (Kris) let me borrow his 950 for the time being the car was idling way lean, not even registering on my WB. Did a BLT and it was leaking around the TB/IM area and we used RTV instead of gaskets. I pulled the TB off and re-RTV'd it and it sealed a little better and idled at a 15.8~16.1:1 AFR which is obviously still lean. Pulled off the TB again the next day and found a small dime sized chunk of old gasket on the IM inlet. Scrapped it off and RTV'd it back up and it was idling right around 14.7:1, perfect or so I thought.

On the drive home (we did the install at Kris's house) I did a 50% throttle pull and KA-BLAMMMM!!! backfire around 22psi but my AFR's were good at 12.3:1, remember I'm on E85. The rest of my drive home it was sputtering, popping, hesitating, and backfiring like a bad ass. The entire way I was thinking about what corner we might have cut installing the FMIC setup thats causing a boost leak now. Well since the VR-Speed FMIC kit doesn't come with a tapped boost source on the piping I rigged one up by punching a hole in a coupler and running I nipple through it. I found that was leaking really bad when I did another BLT when I got it home so I fixed it and the next BLT was solid, holding 30psi with no leaks. Thought I took care of the bucking and backfiring but on my way to work today it started doing it again. While I was at work I was thinking W.T.F. could be causing it to run rich like that and backfire randomly? I had a list of afpr, ignition amp, & CAS since it was getting too much fuel and backfiring like there wasn't spark. Swapped in a new CAS real quick in the parking lot at work since I had one in the trunk and drove it home and didn't backfire once. I even did a WOT pull and watch it hit 30psi before I backed off, that car feels pretty damn good right now and the tune isn't bad as it sits right now.

I'll have it on the dyno soon, probably next Friday but we'll see how that goes... hopefully it stays together for that long.

:dsm:
 

gofer

Moderator
8,077
1,185
Feb 18, 2006
South Gilbert, Arizona
Things are on stand by right now, sorry. No Start, 95 harness in a 97

My wiring harness went into my axle in early May and I'm still trying to get the car back up on the road. As soon as I get results I WILL post them...

:dsm:
 

gofer

Moderator
8,077
1,185
Feb 18, 2006
South Gilbert, Arizona
Im on vacation right now but the car is running and pulling strong. I installed a 3" GM MAF and a SMIM to the setup so I'm in the process of street tuning it right now. The car started for the first time on the 9th of July so give me a few more weeks before I get it up to RRE and dyno'd. I just got my MAFComp sliders in check with the new GM MAF at 15psi, its time to turn up the boost and get my AFR's good and then start advancing the timing.

Once again, I will most definitely update this thread after I get a WOT log with full boost (28psi) and also dyno numbers as well. Sorry for the delay but my car kind of self destructed a few months ago and its taken a bit to rewire everything.

:dsm:
 

_1466_

Proven Member
135
0
May 10, 2008
North Haledon, New_Jersey
Im on vacation right now but the car is running and pulling strong. I installed a 3" GM MAF and a SMIM to the setup so I'm in the process of street tuning it right now. The car started for the first time on the 9th of July so give me a few more weeks before I get it up to RRE and dyno'd. I just got my MAFComp sliders in check with the new GM MAF at 15psi, its time to turn up the boost and get my AFR's good and then start advancing the timing.

Once again, I will most definitely update this thread after I get a WOT log with full boost (28psi) and also dyno numbers as well. Sorry for the delay but my car kind of self destructed a few months ago and its taken a bit to rewire everything.

:dsm:

Glad to hear everything is coming together for you. Can't wait to see the results!
 

gofer

Moderator
8,077
1,185
Feb 18, 2006
South Gilbert, Arizona
UPDATE
I finally got the setup back on the dyno and the car was ready for it this time. Sam C. at RRE did a great job getting as much power to the wheels as he could while keeping it a VERY conservative tune on E85. I don't know how conservative 29psi on a stock bottom end really is, however the AFR's and the timing advance on E85 were conservative. My best friend Kris (banishedmunk) has helped me get the car to where it is today and I can't thank him enough!

I'll post a log and the dyno print out when he emails them to me so you can see the numbers for yourself, I'm nothing less than impressed with this turbo! And for everyone that thinks FP's advertised airflow for this thing is a bit high, we were logging 48 lbs/min in link...

440awhp, 390 ft-lbs tq.

:dsm:
 

dsm-onster

DSM Wiseman
8,594
111
Jul 11, 2004
Bloxom, Virginia
Good numbers :thumb:

The compressor airflow isn't overrated. Getting that out of the 16g hotside is a bit difficult. You need a SMIM and 30psi ;) . . . But regardless, this is excellent results with a 16g hotside all the same!!!! Very nice numbers.
 
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