EVO 16g and FP2 cams vs Larger turbo advice

[wrx2dsm]

I just had my motor rebuilt by a friend. My b16g is dead and Im in search of a new turbo. My question is this: Would you guys go for a EVO16g with Forced Performance cams or drop all the money in a larger turbo? And if so what turbo? Im looking for 350whp on 93 octance and huge power band. Im FWD as well.

 

[andymoraitis]

If you're looking for big power on pump gas, you'll want either a 50 trim variant or something like an FP Green (Mitsu/Garret hybrid) or a TD06H 20G. These turbo's excel on pump gas since they have large compressor covers (3") which generates less friction and heat as the compressor wheel feeds the motor. Don't get me wrong, an EVO III can do this as well, but you'll need to balance the whole timing/intake temp/fuel equation and a larger turbo gives you more wiggle room.

Something bigger will certainly make it easier. Look into the following:

1. FP Green
2. TD06H 20G
3. Any 50-60 trim with the T04E cover

Depending on the compression of your new motor, this will affect your cam selection. Most of these turbos will make very good power up to about 7500-8000 RPM and a great choice for that range would be a Comp 200, FP2 (or 2x), Crower 413, or HKS 264/272 setup. Most of these cams start to peter out at about 7400 or so and would do fine on any of the turbos listed above.

Have fun shopping!

Andy

 

[daren_p]

Being fwd, you should be able to meet or be dame close to your 350 whp goal on the evoIII with cams a good tune and pump. When I was trying to figure out if I should keep my evoIII and go cams or upgrade to a 50 trim the majority said get the cams first, this is what I will be doing. With the evoIII and cams you will have the best powerband because of the super quick spool & the cams will help out your top end. Compairing an evoIII with cams vs a 50 trim without, I would think the evoIII might actually make more power because the stock cams will limit the 50 trim. Now if someday you think you want abit more out of your setup you can always consider a BB 50 trim. You'll almost have the spool of the evoIII and when you have the cash again, throw in some cams and have a great highway puller as well. With that setup you'll have the best of both worlds.

 

[andymoraitis]

I can understand the perspective of getting cams and a turbo for less money than a larger turbo alone, but what concerns me about the EVO III on an FWD is the amount of wheelspin generated at the onset of boost. These larger turbos will respond in a more linear fashion than the EVO III will, with the best of the bunch being the FP Green and the hardest hitter being the 20G.

Any of them will help you reach your goals, but for driveability, I'd rather run a Green on stock cams than an EVO III with cams on pump gas any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[wrx2dsm]

I would to get the Green, but that is out my budget. I have about a 1k for everything turbo associated. I would get cams with the EVO3 cause I already have a 2g install kit. I guess Im worried that the 50 trim varients (Green excluded) dont seem to make the advertised power with a bolt on housing. I was looking a SBs g50. Any advice on the 50 trim varients? I spent all nite searching and basically got a head full of conflicting info.
Thanks

 

[TSIMonsteR]

Check out the PTE SCM5031 dbb Spools like the 16g but hits with the 50 trim punch. Here is a link

SCM 5031E dbb

It is what I plan on doing. That way you have a little left over for cams and what not. Also, there is a tech article here about how to install this turbo. (in the article he states the difference between it and his old G50)

 

[andymoraitis]

I would to get the Green, but that is out my budget. I have about a 1k for everything turbo associated. I would get cams with the EVO3 cause I already have a 2g install kit. I guess Im worried that the 50 trim varients (Green excluded) dont seem to make the advertised power with a bolt on housing. I was looking a SBs g50. Any advice on the 50 trim varients? I spent all nite searching and basically got a head full of conflicting info.
Thanks

Our wiseman Dan (project_tsi) has a G50 standard bearing on his 2.3 stroker FWD and he can burn them most of the way into 4th with a pretty docile tune. Traction is definitely going to be an issue and there will be trade offs. Cams will "soften" the hit of the EVO III somewhat and it's definitely within your price range.

As far as other turbos out there, I only trust MHI units and the hybrids made by Forced Performance. Call me a stickler, but I've run my Big 16G very hard at boost levels that are way out of it's efficiency range and it still has ZERO shaft play. I've seen some 50 trim variants come out of the box with significant in and out play and that's something I'd be concerned with.

You'd be fine with an EVO III and some FP2's or Comp 200's.

 

[firebirdvert305]

listen to andy, everything he said so far seems to be very true, I currently run 272/272 setup on a 14b, and i hate the combo. I turbo falls off where the cams picks up, not the smartest move on my part, but i must admit it will pull upto 7400 or so it feels. I was convinced of going the route of evo 3 16g, with my 272/272 setup, but now i cant even hold boost on my 14b to redline, so im wondering if an internal gate will even solve this problem. If i was you id go externally gated on a TD06 20G, thats my future plan, after a mitsu 4 layer head gasket and arp studs going on first. I shall be running methanol injection as well as i wont be running any 110 octane, O yes im also fwd, traction seems to be a very big issue with my 272/272 14b setup now, it can only get worse from here on out. I have a set of slicks, i will be going to the track soon with my 272/272 14b setup, il post results when i get them....on 18psi FMIC, 2600, 1g mas, chipped eprom, bald tires i went 14.4 at 106mph....since then ive added AFC, 272/272 cams, 20psi, 2gmas, FIC 650 inj, with a nice wideband tune....so we shall see what happens....IF ONLY IT WILL HOLD 20PSI TILL REDLINE!

 

[andymoraitis]

IF ONLY IT WILL HOLD 20PSI TILL REDLINE!

Sorry to disappoint, but it won't. My 16G on a 2.3 8.8:1 stroker drops from 24 at 5000 RPM to 20 by 6500 and my revs come up very quickly. When the wheel can't match the VE of the motor, it's too much to ask. Porting the compressor outlet and such will help, but only marginally.

I think you'd do fine with an EVO III since it can flow 42 lbs./min of air which is more than my Big 16G and plenty more than your 14B. You'll still see some drop in boost towards redline, depending on how much you're trying to run (the more you push it to keep up high flow, the more it will drop), but it should hold up to 23-24psi to redline on those cams.

A little tip for you is that as the boost starts to come down, you want to add some timing to keep the power going. This is great if you have Link or a custom E-prom chip. While the turbo may be out it's efficiency range, it's still making good torque and that's what helps you make power. Also, if you have enough of a fuel system, let it creep! Boost creep on an FWD is like traction control as the boost will rise in the higher gears where you have more traction and can put the power down. FYI, your traps speed would have been good enough for a 12.7 or 12.8 on an AWD. That's got to be tough!

Have fun and good luck at the track,

Andy

 

[firebirdvert305]

yea man way to rub it in on the 12.8 ANDY! I used to have a really bad boost creep problem with my car, as i put on a 02 dump thinking it would help, all that did was add noise, i changed the boost controller and it seemed to work out well for me, hallman rocks. Evos 3's can see 42lb min but usually thats pushing it, i believe for most people they are seeing around 38-40...usually the "good ones" are pushing 41-42 as ive seen so far. Funny you mention about that timing thing, im seeing around 18-22 degrees of timing at 15-16psi at 6800, AFR's are 11.1...i can tune for 11.3 but i dont wanna push it too far, since im on stock head gasket with 145k. I just dont trust it since it is my daily driver for now. Hopefully with these mickey thompson ET Drags, KYB AGX, prothane mounts and 2 step i can cut some 1.8-2.0's....im tired of these high 60 foots.
ps. thanx andy your input is always helpful.

 

[wrx2dsm]

Ok. After a great conversation with SlowBoy, Ive got another combo up for suggestion. What about a bastard 20g with TD06h exhaust housing and some Comp 200s? I think this might be a good compromise between an EVO 16g and going larger. It would allow me to reuse my 2g install kit, keep the same intake and still get cams in there. The added lag of the bastard maybe a good combo for FWD. What do you guys think?

 

[GSntncT]

I think that could work out good. The 20G has proven it's worth time, and time again. And like you said, you still use the install kit, and intake, so you save some $ too.

 

[daren_p]

Think the bastard could be a very good turbo for your setup. If you do opt to go with the td06h wheel you will add some lag time, but will make up for it in top end flow. I remember reading the SBR dyno tests, & I believe it was the reg td05 bastard they tested but I was pretty impressed with the results even compared to the 50 trims. I think they could sell a tonn of these is the price was abit lower but should be a great turbo for your setup, plus have Mitsu reliability. Kepp us posted on how this performs.

Edit: It was the 6H that they tested, but it did make more hp then their std 50 trim.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208481

 

[wrx2dsm]

After comparing the curves from Slowboys Internal gated Turbo dyno thread, I really dont see that big of a diff between the EVO16g and the bastard 20g at relative the pump gas boost levels. It seems that only diff was when the boost was really cranked. Im very realistic....I know that I wont see those kind of boost levels with any regularities. At 20-22 psi on the street the EVO16g might even have an advantage. Is it me, or does the EVo16g seem to have more area under the curve wheres its making power? Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

 

[andymoraitis]

To me, the Bastard 20G and Sleeper 16G (FP) really aren't worth the extra money unless you're running in a class that requires a stock appearing turbo. Besides the 6H wheel in these turbos will still hit pretty hard. In truth you could buy an EVO III and cams for the same cost as a Bastard 20G alone.

Your original plan is fine. Just don't overthink it!

Andy

 

[wrx2dsm]

After sleeping on it last nite, Ive come to a semi-conclusion. Im going to stay with MHI turbos. Im currently stuck between the EVO16g/cam combo or a just bite the bullet and buy a 20g. The 20g will leave me plenty of overhead for futuring modding. Im afraid that after I break in the new motor and turn the boost to 22-23 psi on the EVO16g...I will be close to maxing it out on pump gas and left wanting more .


edit: The PTE turbos that are on sale at DejonTool look pretty interesting as well...Im overthinking.

 

[daren_p]

After comparing the curves from Slowboys Internal gated Turbo dyno thread, I really dont see that big of a diff between the EVO16g and the bastard 20g at relative the pump gas boost levels. It seems that only diff was when the boost was really cranked. Im very realistic....I know that I wont see those kind of boost levels with any regularities. At 20-22 psi on the street the EVO16g might even have an advantage. Is it me, or does the EVo16g seem to have more area under the curve wheres its making power? Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

The torque & hp curves are sililar on the evoIII & bastard 20g. Looking at 20 psi (since this is the area you will be using it in), the bastard obviously gives up a couple hundred rpms in spool (which may be good being your fwd. The torque curves look pretty similar except the bastard is shifted slightly higher in the rpms & doesn't drop off as much in the 5-6K range. Same thing on the hp side, bastard shifted slightly higher but makes a nice bump in HP from 5300 up to redline. Area under the curve, still looks like the bastard has an advantage over the evoII to me. Now with that being said, where the evo lacks, throw in a set of cams and the graphs will probably look pretty much the same & the cost will end up being the same. The evoIII is a great street turbo, I run this and like it alot. When I origionally bought it I thought it would be more then enough but like most others you get used to the power & want to upgrade. If you want to stay MHI, I think I would go 20g just for that reason.

Not sure if this is a direction you want to go but the route I will be taking is to get a set of FP1x cams (lift of the FP2's but increased ramp rate so they don't lose the bottom ends of the 2's) with upgraded valve spring, which are needed. I'll run that this summer @ 20 psi. Then get a PTE dual BB 50 trim for next summer.

 

[andymoraitis]

After sleeping on it last nite, Ive come to a semi-conclusion. Im going to stay with MHI turbos. Im currently stuck between the EVO16g/cam combo or a just bite the bullet and buy a 20g

Pardon the expression, but the 20G with the 6H wheel is one sick little bi***. The torque hit on one of those things is amazing when it comes online. If I could have anything on my stroker, it'd be a Green or a 20G. I think you'll be happy with a 20G. As time and money allow, you can cam it and see better gains. It all depends on how far you want to go.

 

[compression]

im in the same boat here, i have the evo 3 16g , ported it myself, i have a ported and polished head, i can either get cams or a new turbo, i was looking at the rs60t , i ran a 12.5 @109 at the track last time, (broke 3rdgear shift fork) and im rebuilding the tranny now, my car runs great at the track because i always throw 2-3 gallons of 110 or gt plus in her, but on the street its a pain in the ass to try and tune, it seems like i need to play with the afc everyday to get it to run right -.- so i am thinking of getting the rs60t and putting it on there, and on this turbo can i keep my same o2 housing? i have a pacesetting exhaust manifold and a 3" o2 housing with ext dump tube , so if i get a turbo im getting a bolt on one. for 800$ it sounds like a pretty good deal, and it comes stock with a polished compressor housing. , right now when you look into my engine bay it looks like a mess.it needs some bling .

 

[wrx2dsm]

Well...after much debate and a nice long conversation with the home-boss(wife), Ive decided to do it once...do it right. Im going with a Green and FP2s. This thread has been most useful and I appreciate all the info. It will still be a month or so before everything is back together. Motor is still at the machineshop. Im going slow, but man does it feel better to know the path.

 

[andymoraitis]

Well...after much debate and a nice long conversation with the home-boss(wife), Ive decided to do it once...do it right. Im going with a Green and FP2s. This thread has been most useful and I appreciate all the info. It will still be a month or so before everything is back together. Motor is still at the machineshop. Im going slow, but man does it feel better to know the path.

I'm really happy for you and a bit jealous at the same time. The guys at FP are awesome to deal with and you'll be very happy with that setup. Let us know how it goes when it's all together and congrats on making an excellent choice.

Cheers to the boss,

Andy

 

[2gGSX]

Well...after much debate and a nice long conversation with the home-boss(wife), Ive decided to do it once...do it right. Im going with a Green and FP2s. This thread has been most useful and I appreciate all the info. It will still be a month or so before everything is back together. Motor is still at the machineshop. Im going slow, but man does it feel better to know the path.

If I had any actual funds or time that is exactly the setup I would want to end up with in the end more or less, so congrats on the decision and get ready to make some big numbers.

 

[TurboDSMer]

I actually recently purchased a bastard 20g for my 2g and i love the thing. I have fp2's and this thing just pulls hard all the way to redline. I haven't gotten it dynoed yet but i am hoping to make some decent power on pump~380-410 @ 24-26 psi on pump. don't be affraid to run high boost on pump as long as you have upgraded fuel and a good tune you'll be okay.

 

[wrx2dsm]

Just a little update. The Green is a go, but I am going to stay with the stock cams for the rest of this year. Instead of getting cams, Im going to upgrade my intercooler to handle the increased pressure of the Green. The new Dejon tool intercooler will fit the bill well and comes in at the same price as cams. I currently have the older Dejon Street Fmic(which is a small core sized for a 16g). The new intercooler also takes care of getting a lower intercooler pipe to fit the Green.
Peace,
D

 

[silvah_gsx]

What j-pipe will you be buying to fit the new frontmount?