EVO 16g vs. 20g

[pboglio]

Saw this on evolutionm.net, pretty interesting data that Dave Buschur posted. It applies to the current EVO turbo vs. the old 20g on an EVO but the results are very enlightening. I was wavering between a 20g and EVO III 16g but this kinda helped me make my decision. All I can say is wow, a 16g makes MORE power than a 20g, hard to believe.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=118188&page=21&pp=15

 

[Black95TSIawd]

um, the lancer evolution 16g is wayyyyyyyyy different then the evoIII 16g that vendors sell for our cars.

 

[pboglio]

Yes, I'm aware of the general differences. SBR has already proven that an EVO III 16g can flow 400 w.h.p. worth of airflow. You missed the point of Buschur's post. The point is that the 20g on the identical setup was down 40 h.p. compared to an EVO turbo. Both versions of the EVO turbo have a very similar flow rate, proven by SBR and Buschur.

Based on the EVO 8 and 20g compressor maps, I figured the 20g to have a 40 h.p. advantage, not a 40 h.p. DEFICIT.

 

[Turbocharged]

Black95TSIawd is right. They are entirely different turbos. A lot of new technology is used in the new evo 16g. That turbo is bad ass. I cant remember specifics but I know that it is a twin scroll with a lighter rotating assembly. MUCH DIFFERENT

 

[Black95TSIawd]

yea pboglio. The 2003 and newer lancer evolution 16g shares only the name with the evoIII16g that our DSM vendors sell. They are completely different turbos.

 

[91 white tsi]

well the real question is will the new 16g fit on our manis??is it the same turbo lay out as in bolt patterns and oil lines and what not jsut different improved flow?

 

[97TSIAWD]

well the real question is will the new 16g fit on our manis??is it the same turbo lay out as in bolt patterns and oil lines and what not jsut different improved flow?

You mean the New Evo8 16g, or the one he is trying to develope with a 20g compressor wheel?

 

[GPTourer]

I think this is where he put a 20G wheel inside the stock Evo 8 turbo.

This would be like comparing an EvoIII16G to a TD05H 20G, or 20G wheel inside a EvoIII housing. I don't think you would see significant gains doing this - since I believe MHI developed the best TD05H turbo possible each time they decided to put it on an Evolution, wether it be a III, IV, V...or VIII. Mixing and mathching other wheels would probably upset that balance and produce something that isn't an upgrade at all.

 

[T9S1i]

correct me if im wrong but every evo 8 ive seen has the turbo inlet on the drivers side and ours have the inlet on the passengers side... dont think it would work on our cars then...

danny

 

[Turbocharged]

correct me if im wrong but every evo 8 ive seen has the turbo inlet on the drivers side and ours have the inlet on the passengers side... dont think it would work on our cars then...

danny

You're right. The turbo faces the other direction so it will not work on our cars.

 

[pboglio]

I think this is where he put a 20G wheel inside the stock Evo 8 turbo.

This would be like comparing an EvoIII16G to a TD05H 20G, or 20G wheel inside a EvoIII housing. I don't think you would see significant gains doing this - since I believe MHI developed the best TD05H turbo possible each time they decided to put it on an Evolution, wether it be a III, IV, V...or VIII. Mixing and mathching other wheels would probably upset that balance and produce something that isn't an upgrade at all.

Read Dave's dyno post again. Yes, he dynoed a reverse rotation COPY of a 20g mounted inside an EVO 8 turbo. He admits the wheel may be dimensionally off and that the CNC surface finish may be affecting power output as opposed to a smooth casting. So he next slaps on the tried and true 20g/7cm that every DSMer knows and loves as a test benchmark, using his custom cast exhaust manifold. The "traditional" 20g actually put out LESS horsepower than his custom EVO 20g compressor wheel upgrade inside the EVO 8 stock turbo. Dave had every incentive to make both 20g's look as good as possible, but thats not what happened and to his credit he posted the actual results.

 

[GPTourer]

Okay, I didn't catch the part about the two different 20g wheels. But despite the fact that I think David Buschur knows his stuff and is a smart guy, I still believe if MHI believed the 20G was the best choice for the Evo, and they developed a twin scroll TD05H-20G-7cm2 for the it, they would have a lot better results then he did.

 

[neuro]

Okay, I didn't catch the part about the two different 20g wheels. But despite the fact that I think David Buschur knows his stuff and is a smart guy, I still believe if MHI believed the 20G was the best choice for the Evo, and they developed a twin scroll TD05H-20G-7cm2 for the it, they would have a lot better results then he did.

In that case, it would be a TD05HR-20G-10.5T. The official name for the Evo 8 turbo is TD05HR-16G6-10.5T. The R stands for reverse rotation and the T stands for Twin scroll. 10.5 is 10.5cm2. I believe the official name for the Evo III 16G is TD05H-16G6-7cm2. I think Dave may be right in his assumption that a precision cast mirror image 20G wheel should produce more power, unless there's something really weird about the compressor housing design.

I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure the 16G6 compressor wheel in the Evo 8 turbo is just a mirror image version of the Evo III's wheel, possibly in a more efficient housing. Anyone know for sure? Buschur's Evo 8 power output is quite similar to Slowboy's Evo III 16G dyno sheet, which lends some clout to this assumption. I figure the extra volume of the twin scroll housing helps out with top-end power while the twin scroll turbine makes for good spool. The best of both worlds!

 

[Revolution]

I personally think their the same wheels just made out of different materials to offset the larger housing. I wouldnt put the evo 6.5 turbo on my car just because the housing scares me off, the bigger the laggier.

Shure if you think about it the housing will inexplicably flow more gases in the upper power band but what this really equates to is intention specifics. If you want to go down the 1320 maybe this turbo might do some good and not drop out of the power band due to it's inherent spool ,but with that same token I doubt it'd be quick enough in autox or in a roadcourse car,, who knows exactly what this turbo (evo 6.5) can do until it's pruven in both fields.

Im a firm believer in if your going to build a power plant make shure you have the parts feeding off each other i.e a stroked engine gives you that needed ummf in the low end while a smim and cams would give you the extra nudge in the top range ,all you would need next would be a turbo that lives well in the mid range ,like the evo .Whoops I've said too much.

Dsm' have an over abundence in upgrades already so I see it fruitless to try and add on possobilities of more turbos and what not when we have enough combo options to build the same car for the same purpose 10 times over and all substantially different.


But go ahead dreaming never hurt anybody. Hey pboglio I should be sending my turbo for that extruded hone job out soon The only thing keeping me back is the shiiping costs. Bloody customs .

 

[GPTourer]

Dsm' have an over abundence in upgrades already so I see it fruitless to try and add on possobilities of more turbos and what not when we have enough combo options to build the same car for the same purpose 10 times over and all substantially different.

Yeah but, he was doing this on an Evo. Which from what I've seen there aren't many choices. The stock turbo is good enough for most, or you have to shell out thousands for a new manifold and hardware to go full garrett and most choose the GT35R. He was trying to create something in between that was a good upgrade that is bolt on to the stock manifold for the Evo.

 

[evolvingGS-t]

Buschur is actually making the 20g to be more powerful than the current stock turbo. Regardless of the twin scroll. I don't think that all of his testing on the 20g is nearly complete. He is doing this from a couple of stand points.
1) If you have been following Mitsubishi Motors, they have put out a "apb" for modified EVO's. Which means that Mitsu is voiding ALL WARRANTIES if you have modified your EVO.
2) To be a "factory" upgrade which no "factory/EVO trained mechanic" will notice that it is a 20g so they can't void any warranties.
3) To be a sleeper turbo.
4) And a nice upgrade for someone that has a tight budget and want awesome power.

 

[GPTourer]

1) If you have been following Mitsubishi Motors, they have put out a "apb" for modified EVO's. Which means that Mitsu is voiding ALL WARRANTIES if you have modified your EVO.

While I don't deny the advantages of having a sleeper turbo, I doubt many people are going to use it with no other visible mods. There is no "APB". They can void your powertrain warranty if you have powertrain mods, its very simple.

 

[Jehu]

Actually, they can't just void your warranty without proof.

The Magnusson-Moss Warranty - Federal Trade Commission Improvement Act of 1975 protects consumers from such fradulent activity by new car dealers. Under this Act, aftermarket equipment that improves performance does not void a vehicle manufacturer's orginial warranty, unless the warranty clearly states the addition of aftermarket equipment automatically voids your vehicle's warrany or if it can be proven that the aftermarket device is the direct cause of the failure. The easiest way to check this is to look in your owner's manual under, "what is not covered". Under Magnusson-Moss Act a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before they can deny warranty coverage. If they cannot prove such claim-or offer an explanation- it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty. The Federal Trade Commission (202.326.3128) administers the Magnusson-Moss Act and monitors compliance with warranty law.

Enforcement of such, of course, is a totally separate issue...

 

[GPTourer]

I am well aware of the M-M act. All I'm saying is, they are not voiding entire warranties for mods. But they aren't replacing t-cases on cars with GT35 kits either. There is plenty of gray in between.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Black95TSIawd is right. They are entirely different turbos. A lot of new technology is used in the new evo 16g. That turbo is bad ass. I cant remember specifics but I know that it is a twin scroll with a lighter rotating assembly. MUCH DIFFERENT

It has the same compressor as the Evo III 16G, and the same turbine. They are just reversed. The only major difference is the twin scroll exhaust housing with the larger A/R on the VIII.

They aren't that far apart in terms of maximum power output. They are both limited by the compressor inlet.

 

[Turbocharged]

It has the same compressor as the Evo III 16G, and the same turbine. They are just reversed. The only major difference is the twin scroll exhaust housing with the larger A/R on the VIII.

They aren't that far apart in terms of maximum power output. They are both limited by the compressor inlet.

I remember where I read that the new lancer 16G has a lighter rotating assembly the evoIII 16G:

http://linux.forcedperformance.net/...uct_Code=NTEVO8TI105&Category_Code=Lancer_EVO

Sorry about posting the wrong information. The STOCK twin scroll 16G does not have a lighter rotating assembly... the forced performance upgraded twin scroll 16G does...

So the main difference is a higher flowing turbine housing compared to the evoIII.

 

[JiggahMan]

Actually, they can't just void your warranty without proof.

The Magnusson-Moss Warranty - Federal Trade Commission Improvement Act of 1975 protects consumers from such fradulent activity by new car dealers. Under this Act, aftermarket equipment that improves performance does not void a vehicle manufacturer's orginial warranty, unless the warranty clearly states the addition of aftermarket equipment automatically voids your vehicle's warrany or if it can be proven that the aftermarket device is the direct cause of the failure. The easiest way to check this is to look in your owner's manual under, "what is not covered". Under Magnusson-Moss Act a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before they can deny warranty coverage. If they cannot prove such claim-or offer an explanation- it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty. The Federal Trade Commission (202.326.3128) administers the Magnusson-Moss Act and monitors compliance with warranty law.

Enforcement of such, of course, is a totally separate issue...

Think what you want find all the laws you want. When it comes down to it they'll do what they want. Subaru killed my waranty for a boost controller. When you get into it legally, they have a team. You have a low-budget single lawyer.

 

[97TSIAWD]

Think what you want find all the laws you want. When it comes down to it they'll do what they want. Subaru killed my waranty for a boost controller. When you get into it legally, they have a team. You have a low-budget single lawyer.

Actually one example does come to mind about Mitsubishi Evo's and warrenties. Does anyone remember the posts about a guy who was upgrading and racing his Evo, and blew his motor or something went wrong with it (could have been drive train related). But the dealer had found stuff about it either on the internet or went to the track, either way the dealer said he knew he was racing the car and wouldn't uphold the warranty. I remember something like this happening a while back. I don't know if individual dealers would have discreation over something like this, since they are individually owned. In my opinion if you put something on your car race it and break something it is your fault and shouldn't fall under warranty. If a recall for any part comes out it should be taken care regardless.

Just a small question, did you take the car in to have something fixed when the noticed the boost controller and voided the warranty?

 

[jmakado]

I just wanted to make sure that the ones who said the evo 8 turbo is "wayyyyy different, badass, only shares the name with the e316g" saw, read, and understood shape's post. It is not that different, the only main difference is the turbine housing. Of course that will lead to more power higher in the rev. range but the comp. wheel is the same meaning it can flow the same amount of air as the e816g.

 

[97TSIAWD]

I just wanted to make sure that the ones who said the evo 8 turbo is "wayyyyy different, badass, only shares the name with the e316g" saw, read, and understood shape's post. It is not that different, the only main difference is the turbine housing. Of course that will lead to more power higher in the rev. range but the comp. wheel is the same meaning it can flow the same amount of air as the e816g.

Could the twin scroll design be adapted to a turbo that would work on our cars? It seems like the Evo8 turbo with this design has a huge benefit over other 16g turbos. Buschur has run that turbo to an amazing 11.23, which leads to the question why not adapt it to a 16g that would work on DSMs and market that since it would be enough turbo for many people.