Holset Turbos, PART 6

[andytalon]

My 16cm housing in volume is very close to what a dsm bep housing is, so in actuality the spool should not be to bad if I port the divided part on the turbo into a blade so it cuts the exhaust and doesn't restrict the flow. Does anyone know if it would be a good idea to take the divided center out completely from the housing????

 

[kawboy]

For what it's worth, I was told by Tim's Turbos that there are about 40 different HX-40 wheels. My particular Volvo wheel featured a larger step height then the more common HX-40's, which meant my housing had to be re-machined for my turbo.

 

[need2boostpsi]

My 16cm housing in volume is very close to what a dsm bep housing is, so in actuality the spool should not be to bad if I port the divided part on the turbo into a blade so it cuts the exhaust and doesn't restrict the flow. Does anyone know if it would be a good idea to take the divided center out completely from the housing????

the small BEP housing is .55AR or about 8^cm yours is double that. the large bep housing is about 10^cm. your gonna have more lag than a typical BEP large housing. Also if running a undivided manifold you would want to radius the middle, not knife edge, as knife edge makes a sharp point or hard 90* for gases not hitting dead center.


For all you 56mm HX40 users the base of that compressor wheel is the same as the 60mm hx40. the turbine wheel is also the same. I have both and last night i decided to compare them.

 

[toofast82]

For all you 56mm HX40 users the base of that compressor wheel is the same as the 60mm hx40. the turbine wheel is also the same. I have both and last night i decided to compare them.

By base, do you mean the exducer of the compressor wheel? I think the 56mm hx40 should perform at least, if not a little better than the 7blade hx35, due to the larger hx40 turbine. This will most likely be at the expense of a slight amount of lag. Spool should be between the hx35 and 58mm hx40 due to slightly smaller compressor inducer and the billet wheel.

 

[Morphius]

Please people, do not post in the Holset Results thread unless you are making a post with your setup and results. Otherwise, the thread will end up being just another discussion thread with people griping about where the consolidated info is.

If you don't see some info that the poster may have or didn't share, please send them a PM and ask if they will update thier post. I have yet to work with anyone here in these threads that won't add some information if you ask.

I don't mean to nitpick but somone has to do it.

Thanks.

 

[Morphius]

which wheel flows the most lbs/m?

hx35w 7-blade (56mm inducer)
hx40w 8-blade (58mm inducer)
hx40w 6-blade(BILLET 56mm inducer)

By no means to be jerkish about it, but I have to ask, does it matter? I'd venture to say it might measureable on a dyno, but not on anyones butt dyno. I really think you could bolt on any of those above and be happy.

I see that question alot, along with everyone needing to have the most flow, billet wheels, etc. If that's the goal, why not move to a HX50/55 or why not move to a HX60. I'd venture to say a large % of you would be happy with HX-35 flow or even Hy-35 flow with a really good tune. You climb north of 500hp on a street car and it's a bit much and moving towards unsafe.

My point: It's not all about slapping on the highest flow turbo, afterall Bucci ran 10.6XX on a puny 14B. How is that possible? Optimizing, tuning, etc. Look at Mike1992 ran low 11's with a HX-35. Just as quick as any of the HX-40 varients. People shouldn't be hung up so much on the maximum flow due to the other influences that happen on the vehicle.

 

[need2boostpsi]

By base, do you mean the exducer of the compressor wheel? I think the 56mm hx40 should perform at least, if not a little better than the 7blade hx35, due to the larger hx40 turbine. This will most likely be at the expense of a slight amount of lag. Spool should be between the hx35 and 58mm hx40 due to slightly smaller compressor inducer and the billet wheel.

yes the exducer is the same, i was able to purchase a blown hx40 with the 60mm wheel and i had a 56mm hx40 that was in great shape, and the 60mm wheel fit onto the 56mm CHRA, i just had to use the compressor cover from the 60mm turbo. now i think ill just have the turbo balanced to make sure it wont wear out prematurely.

 

[need2boostpsi]

By no means to be jerkish about it, but I have to ask, does it matter? I'd venture to say it might measureable on a dyno, but not on anyones butt dyno. I really think you could bolt on any of those above and be happy.

I see that question alot, along with everyone needing to have the most flow, billet wheels, etc. If that's the goal, why not move to a HX50/55 or why not move to a HX60. I'd venture to say a large % of you would be happy with HX-35 flow or even Hy-35 flow with a really good tune. You climb north of 500hp on a street car and it's a bit much and moving towards unsafe.

My point: It's not all about slapping on the highest flow turbo, afterall Bucci ran 10.6XX on a puny 14B. How is that possible? Optimizing, tuning, etc. Look at Mike1992 ran low 11's with a HX-35. Just as quick as any of the HX-40 varients. People shouldn't be hung up so much on the maximum flow due to the other influences that happen on the vehicle.

I guess i see your point, anyone of these turbos will put you where you want to be, its not that the hx40 compressor wheel flows so much more than the 7-blade hx35. the main power comes from the reduced hotside back pressure from the better flowing turbine of the hx-40.

 

[toofast82]

yes the exducer is the same, i was able to purchase a blown hx40 with the 60mm wheel and i had a 56mm hx40 that was in great shape, and the 60mm wheel fit onto the 56mm CHRA, i just had to use the compressor cover from the 60mm turbo. now i think ill just have the turbo balanced to make sure it wont wear out prematurely.

Thats good info to know! I would definitely get it balanced as you said before install

 

[jrohner]

afterall Bucci ran 10.6XX on a puny 14B. How is that possible? Optimizing, tuning, etc.

and stripping the car, that's probably the most important part. Any car can be fast if it's light enough. Being fast with a nearly full-weight AWD takes power.

 

[GST95]

the small BEP housing is .55AR or about 8^cm yours is double that. the large bep housing is about 10^cm. your gonna have more lag than a typical BEP large housing. Also if running a undivided manifold you would want to radius the middle, not knife edge, as knife edge makes a sharp point or hard 90* for gases not hitting dead center.


For all you 56mm HX40 users the base of that compressor wheel is the same as the 60mm hx40. the turbine wheel is also the same. I have both and last night i decided to compare them.

Did you actually measure the nozzle area of the BEP housings with the 12 blade hx40 turbine?

What was the exducer measurement on the compressor wheels you measured?

 

[need2boostpsi]

Did you actually measure the nozzle area of the BEP housings with the 12 blade hx40 turbine?

What was the exducer measurement on the compressor wheels you measured?

yes i did i dont remember the measerments for that, but the ones i got for the compressor side were inducer/exducer 56mm/87, 59/87 my measurments were within 1mm+/- the digital readout had a dead battery so i had to go by the analog on the caliper. i even took the two wheels off and held them back to back to verify.


edit miss read your question, no i didnt measure the nozzle area of the bep housing i was going by calculations from a .55=8^cm .70=10^cm. I measured the wheels only.

 

[toofast82]

yes i did i dont remember the measerments for that, but the ones i got for the compressor side were inducer/exducer 56mm/87, 59/87 my measurments were within 1mm+/- the digital readout had a dead battery so i had to go by the analog on the caliper. i even took the two wheels off and held them back to back to verify.

So that means the the 56mm hx40 exducer is about 5mm bigger than hx35 exducer which i believe is about 82mm. Got to be worth something in flow, but how much, i don't know

 

[andy4g63]

By no means to be jerkish about it, but I have to ask, does it matter? I'd venture to say it might measureable on a dyno, but not on anyones butt dyno. I really think you could bolt on any of those above and be happy.

I see that question alot, along with everyone needing to have the most flow, billet wheels, etc. If that's the goal, why not move to a HX50/55 or why not move to a HX60. I'd venture to say a large % of you would be happy with HX-35 flow or even Hy-35 flow with a really good tune. You climb north of 500hp on a street car and it's a bit much and moving towards unsafe.

My point: It's not all about slapping on the highest flow turbo, afterall Bucci ran 10.6XX on a puny 14B. How is that possible? Optimizing, tuning, etc. Look at Mike1992 ran low 11's with a HX-35. Just as quick as any of the HX-40 varients. People shouldn't be hung up so much on the maximum flow due to the other influences that happen on the vehicle.

Extremely well said Morphius. Thanks...

 

[need2boostpsi]

So that means the the 56mm hx40 exducer is about 5mm bigger than hx35 exducer which i believe is about 82mm. Got to be worth something in flow, but how much, i don't know

i know it has to flow more than an hx35 7-blade, same size inducer less blades. less blades means more flow, but less high boost efficiency. I'm not sure what a larger exducer means? like i've said, the turbine wheel alone is enough to merit the switch. as the 7-blade hx35 in the small bep wont ever see the max of its flow potentioal

 

[toofast82]

i know it has to flow more than an hx35 7-blade, same size inducer less blades. less blades means more flow, but less high boost efficiency. I'm not sure what a larger exducer means? like i've said, the turbine wheel alone is enough to merit the switch. as the 7-blade hx35 in the small bep wont ever see the max of its flow potentioal

Agreed Larger exducer should mean more flow as well and yes the turbine is worth the switch imho

 

[dsm-onster]

A larger exducer means more efficiency. The compressor wheel ends up doing more work on the flow when there is a larger difference in inducer and exducer diameters. The air spends more time in the compressor wheel. This is the reason why the extended tip turbos perform so well. The efficiency is through the roof. Less energy is required from the turbine to maintain a certain boost and thus the boost response is faster. Total peak flow may increase a little, but 99% if the flow is dependent on the inducer shape/size.

Less blades means less cavitation at choke, which encourages more flow. More blades generates higher efficiency because it affects the slip at the exducer. More slip means more efficiency becasue in effect such a characteristic "throws" the air better (more organized jetting out of the blades).

But just as well, blade shape affects the amount of time the air is in the compressor wheel, affects slip, and affects cavitation. Other than blade count and diameters, how similar are the compressor wheels?

And I agree 1000% with Morphius. There's no need to overdo it for no reason. If you are absolutely sure you're going for over 500whp then look at the options that meet that goal. If you'll never going over that amount, strongly consider just an hx35. Senseless lag and a waste of a big turbo isn't a good build. Choose your wheels more specifically. As I've said before, you can't bolt on 10s anyway. It takes a properly chosen supporting cast to merrit a large turbo. A little race gas and seat time can take you VERY far with a turbo that will give you more power under the curve. The first dsm with a holset in the 10s just may be running an hx35.

yes i did i dont remember the measerments for that, but the ones i got for the compressor side were inducer/exducer 56mm/87, 59/87 my measurments were within 1mm+/- the digital readout had a dead battery so i had to go by the analog on the caliper. i even took the two wheels off and held them back to back to verify.

Did you find out if the turbine housings between these hx40 turbos are interchangeable? Did you count the turbine blades?

 

[selmerguy]

Im back on the holset bandwagon. I was going to go holset last year but I bent the wheel od my h1c taking it apart. But now I am back. I am getting my HX35 today. I had a local turboshop machine a .63 ar housing that will bolt up to my t3 setup. I do have a oiling question though. My current setup runs a 1/8npt restrictor at the turbo. With the holset I will not be able to use this restrictor because the threads are different. Can I use the retrictor at the oilpump housing and just run my line from there? I have not seen this exact question asked so figured I would. If I cant do this how are you guys running a restrictor for the holsets? I will post pics of my setup when it gets here.

Sam

 

[Black_Bullet]

So the 56mm billet 6blade hx40, though not proven, it appears like it should easily keep up with any hx35, and as well as the smaller hx40s from the info given so far!
Sounds like the 56mm 6blade is the same turbo as the 60mm 6blade, but just with a smaller inducer... Hmm.

Has it been confirmed that billet wheels actually are more durable (last longer) and show decreased spool times on these holsets?
That could be worth the difference right there, just to know the wheel will give more service life.

 

[need2boostpsi]

A larger exducer means more efficiency. The compressor wheel ends up doing more work on the flow when there is a larger difference in inducer and exducer diameters. The air spends more time in the compressor wheel. This is the reason why the extended tip turbos perform so well. The efficiency is through the roof. Less energy is required from the turbine to maintain a certain boost and thus the boost response is faster. Total peak flow may increase a little, but 99% if the flow is dependent on the inducer shape/size.

Less blades means less cavitation at choke, which encourages more flow. More blades generates higher efficiency because it affects the slip at the exducer. More slip means more efficiency becasue in effect such a characteristic "throws" the air better (more organized jetting out of the blades).

But just as well, blade shape affects the amount of time the air is in the compressor wheel, affects slip, and affects cavitation. Other than blade count and diameters, how similar are the compressor wheels?

And I agree 1000% with Morphius. There's no need to overdo it for no reason. If you are absolutely sure you're going for over 500whp then look at the options that meet that goal. If you'll never going over that amount, strongly consider just an hx35. Senseless lag and a waste of a big turbo isn't a good build. Choose your wheels more specifically. As I've said before, you can't bolt on 10s anyway. It takes a properly chosen supporting cast to merrit a large turbo. A little race gas and seat time can take you VERY far with a turbo that will give you more power under the curve. The first dsm with a holset in the 10s just may be running an hx35.


Did you find out if the turbine housings between these hx40 turbos are interchangeable? Did you count the turbine blades?

very nice Matt

I did find out that the turbine housing is interchangeable. the 54mm came with the 16^cm T3 and it fit fine on the 60mm holset. The Turbine fins are identical in quantity and shape. as were the shafts, and center housings, the compressor covers are larger on the 60mm hx40 than the 56mm one. and the compressor wheels were the same height, only difference i could measure was the size of the inducer.

 

[selmerguy]

Well here are the pics. I got the oil thing figured out I think. The kit from turbotrader is only a 3/8npt fitting. Which dosent fit quite right but I can make it work with my curretn restrictor. I think this housing should work great.

 

[dsm-onster]

That looks GREAT! Like it was meant for it !!! I suspect you'll get similar spool results to a bolton housing with quite a bit more flow.

 

[GST95]

yes i did i dont remember the measerments for that, but the ones i got for the compressor side were inducer/exducer 56mm/87, 59/87 my measurments were within 1mm+/- the digital readout had a dead battery so i had to go by the analog on the caliper. i even took the two wheels off and held them back to back to verify.


edit miss read your question, no i didnt measure the nozzle area of the bep housing i was going by calculations from a .55=8^cm .70=10^cm. I measured the wheels only.

Was that the measurement all the way to the outside of the base of the wheel or the tips of the blades? On my 7 blade hx40 the tips are around 84.5mm and the base is 87mm.

where did the .55=8cm^2 and .70=10cm^2 come from?


I took a few pics of the 17cm housing i just got. By the looks of the gasket outline on the inlet, it was used with a non-divided manifold. It bolted right up and the ports are a perfect match. Its soaking in PB so i can get it off the turbo it came with. Ill try getting it off tomorrow.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Any predictions on how much sooner it will spool going from non-divided manifold/18cm at 5000rpm to a divided manifold/17cm?

 

[need2boostpsi]

Was that the measurement all the way to the outside of the base of the wheel or the tips of the blades? On my 7 blade hx40 the tips are around 84.5mm and the base is 87mm.

where did the .55=8cm^2 and .70=10cm^2 come from?



Any predictions on how much sooner it will spool going from non-divided manifold/18cm at 5000rpm to a divided manifold/17cm?

I measured the base of the blades and the blades. base is 87mm and blades were 85mm. the numbers may not be exact but i sized the caliper to the blades on the 56mm turbo and then moved it to the 60mm turbos turbine blades and they were the same.


the a/r to cm^2 i got from part 3 of the holset discussion thread.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/151239399-post5.html

i would say boost would come on about 500rpms sooner with your T4 setup, what manifold are you using?

 

[selmerguy]

The test fit. I had to cut and run rubber line for the coolant going to the filter housing. I am getting rid of that soon anyway but for now it will work fine.