Holset Turbos, PART 3

[dsm-onster]

Alright one more problem. I was trying to see where I needed to dent-in my coolant pipe for my turbo to clear, and the nipple that faces down off of the coolant pipe is in the way (1g head=1g water pipe). I can't dent it in, but I could cut it off and re-weld it somewhere else, but I really don't want to do that. I was thinking of a flange that goes inbewteen the turbo and the mani to lower the turbo out, but I think that might leak. Any suggestions? Could I use the coolant hole in the block that was used for a water-cooled turbo and get rid of that nipple? I'm so close to finishing my build!

Oddly, I didn't have to dent my 1g pipe. It fit tight against it at I tightened the turbo/manifold bolts. The compressor housing did sit right at that nipple.

That nipple goes to the turbo water feed line. If you do still need to dent at that location to get the turbo to tighten up to the manifold, then you can dent and run an N/T water pipe which has no nipple there.

Another simple option is to bend the turbo water pipe up at a point somewhere under the exhaust manifold. It wouldn't take much of a bend if you bend it close enough to the water pump. Then bang down the flange that bolts the pipe to the block.

For a 1g, you can't go much lower with the turbo (use a spacer at the turbo/manifold point) because, if you have the compressor in a down-firing position, the engine-mounted rollstop is in the way. If yu have the compressor in an upfiring position then you put it even tighter against the water pipe. . . But you have a transmision-mounted roll stop since you're a 2g. You'll probably be fine for clearance with a spacer at the turbo. One MHI turbo inlet flange should be enough to clear the pipe. Use Mitsu metal gaskets. I've never had a problem with my one and it's been through a 14b, 16g, bep 60-1, and now the bep h1c.




Selmerguy, be glad you didn't get that h1e (One is in my living room) or should I say h1c (what I have on my car). There's nothing at all wrong with an h1c, but it wasn't an h1e, if that's what you wanted. I know it's an h1c because there is no map width enhancement groove cut in the webbing around the compressor inlet. The 54mm h1c (my turbo) has the webbing, but not the groove. The h1e has the groove. With that compressor inlet pic you posted, you would be able to see the groove on the inside of the inlet at the blade tips if it were an h1e. And you could see the bottem of the groove in the webbing.

That h1c has 4mm less inducer diameter than the h1e. The h1c should flow in the 20g to 50-trim range (I'll have to prove it). The h1e should flow in the gt3782 to gt4082 range (we have a compressor map). Both are upgrades for you.

My H1E (nevermind the bread crumbs ). . .

 

[kicker91laser]

Selmer, that h1e oil supply is not 3/8 npt, it is an inverted flare. I took mine to a local place that makes hoses/lines and found some fittings that will work.

 

[dsm-onster]

Here's comparison pics of the wh1e 19cm turbine housing versus the 18.5cm h1c turbine housing. Other than the larger t4 inlet, they both appear to have identical scroll geometry. The dial caliper measures the radius as being the same between the two at the same points along the scrolls. Since the area appears the same and the radius is the same, the 19cm housing should flow/spool close to the same as a 18.5cm housing.

Ceedawg wern't you suggesting that you would want the 18.5cm turbine housing on a 60mm hx40? All you would need is an h1e 19cm tubine housing if you can aquire just that. Or buy a whole h1e turbo witha 19cm housing like a wh1e part number3535870 from a 1994 C Series Cummins Transit Bus. Then, get the bigger 60mm compressor wheel. This shop supplies them for the h1c which has the same style vband compressor housing as the h1e, but without the MWE groove. Buy their 60mm wheel and matching MWE cover, or if you can get your cover cut for cheaper. Now you have MWE, a 60mm compressor, an hx40/h1e turbine, a t4 18.5-19cm turbine housing . With t4 turbine housing, you have a choice of a couple of very nice divided runner tubular exhaust manifolds to purchase instead of having to fab one up . Personally I like doing custom work though. It's worth the $800+ difference.

Note: the wh1e in it's stock turbine housing hangs lower.

 

[selmerguy]

Selmerguy, be glad you didn't get that h1e (One is in my living room) or should I say h1c (what I have on my car). There's nothing at all wrong with an h1c, but it wasn't an h1e, if that's what you wanted. I know it's an h1c because there is no map width enhancement groove cut in the webbing around the compressor inlet. The 54mm h1c (my turbo) has the webbing, but not the groove. The h1e has the groove. With that compressor inlet pic you posted, you would be able to see the groove on the inside of the inlet at the blade tips if it were an h1e. And you could see the bottem of the groove in the webbing.

That h1c has 4mm less inducer diameter than the h1e. The h1c should flow in the 20g to 50-trim range (I'll have to prove it). The h1e should flow in the gt3782 to gt4082 range (we have a compressor map). Both are upgrades for you.

My H1E (nevermind the bread crumbs ). . .

Good call on that. After more reading I found this out. Both the h1e and h1c will meet my goal of 400hp and 11's I think. I will find one eventually for the price that I want to pay.

I know the stock fitting on the oil inlet is inverted flare but I was reading that people are just using a 3/8 npt bung and are not having any problems with it leaking. Only one place for the oil to go....

 

[ceedawg]

Here's comparison pics of the wh1e 19cm turbine housing versus the 18.5cm h1c turbine housing. Other than the larger t4 inlet, they both appear to have identical scroll geometry. The dial caliper measures the radius as being the same between the two at the same points along the scrolls. Since the area appears the same and the radius is the same, the 19cm housing should flow/spool close to the same as a 18.5cm housing.

Ceedawg wern't you suggesting that you would want the 18.5cm turbine housing on a 60mm hx40? All you would need is an h1e 19cm tubine housing if you can aquire just that. Or buy a whole h1e turbo witha 19cm housing like a wh1e part number3535870 from a 1994 C Series Cummins Transit Bus. Then, get the bigger 60mm compressor wheel. This shop supplies them for the h1c which has the same style vband compressor housing as the h1e, but without the MWE groove. Buy their 60mm wheel and matching MWE cover, or if you can get your cover cut for cheaper. Now you have MWE, a 60mm compressor, an hx40/h1e turbine, a t4 18.5-19cm turbine housing . With t4 turbine housing, you have a choice of a couple of very nice divided runner tubular exhaust manifolds to purchase instead of having to fab one up . Personally I like doing custom work though. It's worth the $800+ difference.

Note: the wh1e in it's stock turbine housing hangs lower.

here are the specs on the turbo I bought:

Compressor wheel: 60mm (2.36") inducer by 84mm (3.30") overall 6-blade

Exhaust wheel: 64mm (2.51") exducer by 76mm (2.99") overall

Exhaust housing: 14cm non-wastegated modded to fit my HX40 turbine wheel but only has a 2.5 inch outlet.

Here are the pics of my 6 blade Holset HX40. It does'nt use the V-band clamps. It uses bolts. If I could find a 22cm that uses bolts,that would be another nice option to try. I also have the groove in the compressor housing if you notice. Unless I buy a H1E I'd have to transfer all the parts over since I'm thinking the 22cm housing only comes in V-band clamp form.:

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The housing that came with the turbo(HX40 6blade) I have is a bored out 14cm housing where the inlet ports have been opened up to match the gasket. This housing also has a 2.5 inch outlet.

This exh housing I have pictured way above is obviously a 18.5cm T3 flanged,but needs to be bored out. Is that the case with the T4 flanged 19cm on the outlet side. 2.5"? or is it 3"?

 

[dsm-onster]

Cee, what I'm saying is that the h1e 19cm turbine housing is a bolt on for your hx40. I think that will be plenty turbine housing for your 6 blade hx40. I too think a 14cm housing is too small for the flow potential of an hx40 with a 6 blade compressor.

The compressor housing for the h1e has a vband attachment. No machine work for the h1e turbine housing I have right here to go onto the hx40 you have there. Snag a blown wh1e or h1e with the 19cm housing or findjust the 19cm housing. I just don't want to part with mine yet I want to determine how laggy it is first. And that will be only after I max out my h1c and see how laggy the 18.5cm housing is on that.

 

[ceedawg]

Cee, what I'm saying is that the h1e 19cm turbine housing is a bolt on for your hx40. I think that will be plenty turbine housing for your 6 blade hx40. I too think a 14cm housing is too small for the flow potential of an hx40 with a 6 blade compressor.

The compressor housing for the h1e has a vband attachment. No machine work for the h1e turbine housing I have right here to go onto the hx40 you have there. Snag a blown wh1e or h1e with the 19cm housing or findjust the 19cm housing. I just don't want to part with mine yet I want to determine how laggy it is first. And that will be only after I max out my h1c and see how laggy the 18.5cm housing is on that.

OK Matt ,I think I got a lil confused then. Basically you r saying just find a 19cm T4 flanged housing which comes from an H1e and I'll be good to go.

Basically I want a turbine hsing that would flow as much air up top as a Garrett .83A/R single open housing that they use on the GT35R's and spool like a GT35r with a .73 single open housing. My goal is to wax the ass of my buddies STi which has a GT35r with a single opened .83 A/R housing. I know I have to go much bigger with a divided turbine hsing and TS mani.

Question ,would'nt the T3 flanged 18.5cm hsing flow better all around compared to the T4 19cm hsing?

Is the outlet 3" though? Are you interested in a modded 14cm housing then brand new never used?

 

[dsm-onster]

Question ,would'nt the T3 flanged 18.5cm hsing flow better all around compared to the T4 19cm hsing?

I've measured them to be the same thing. So, no. An 18.5 cm turbine housing cut to fit an hx40 turbine should flow the same as an h1e 19cm housing. But the 19cm housing has that meaty, big boned, yawning, t4 flange. Here's a secret: With big power, the transition from turbine runner to turbine housing is very important. Look at the fp race manifold. Not equal length runners, but that's not important. Look at the angle of attack and the smooth transition to turbine inlet diameter. The t4 flange allows for the runners to be larger in diameter without such a difference in transition as some of the transition ends up being in the turbine housing itself.

A twin scroll as large as a 19cm housing should flow more than a .84 garrett undivided housing. IFFIIFFIFF, the the hx40 turbine wheel is up to the task. What has the hx40 turbine been able to flow with gasoline is the question. . . That we know the answer to.

Here's the outlet of the 19cm turbine housing. 3.2 inches:

 

[ceedawg]

I've measured them to be the same thing. So, no. An 18.5 cm turbine housing cut to fit an hx40 turbine should flow the same as an h1e 19cm housing. But the 19cm housing has that meaty, big boned, yawning, t4 flange. Here's a secret: With big power, the transition from turbine runner to turbine housing is very important. Look at the fp race manifold. Not equal length runners, but that's not important. Look at the angle of attack and the smooth transition to turbine inlet diameter. The t4 flange allows for the runners to be larger in diameter without such a difference in transition as some of the transition ends up being in the turbine housing itself.

A twin scroll as large as a 19cm housing should flow more than a .84 garrett undivided housing. IFFIIFFIFF, the the hx40 turbine wheel is up to the task. What has the hx40 turbine been able to flow with gasoline is the question. . . That we know the answer to.

Here's the outlet of the 19cm turbine housing. 3.2 inches:

14 cm and 18.5 cm housings

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The pics suck but the turbine housings do have the same size outlet both inner and outer diameter. This v-band flange looks small compared to the one you have posted. This is why I may have to cut it off and replace it with a bigger diameter flange.



I understand what you are saying about the flow and transition in the runners vs the hsing itself. I get that you are pretty much saying that no matter what flange or pipe diameter you use with the TS mani or turbo,the turbine inlet would be the common denominator concerning the results am I reading that right? And I guess you are saying that I would be good with this T3 flanged 18.5cm housing and a T3 flanged TS mani correct? I thought that the T4 would be better but I think I understand what you state in comparing the two.

Yes a housing bigger than the 14cm or 16cm housing on the HX40 would be a mystery but I'm gonna give it a shot and see what we can get out of this thing.

 

[ceedawg]

A twin scroll as large as a 19cm housing should flow more than a .84 garrett undivided housing. IFFIIFFIFF, the the hx40 turbine wheel is up to the task. What has the hx40 turbine been able to flow with gasoline is the question. . . That we know the answer to.

Here's the outlet of the 19cm turbine housing. 3.2 inches:

Can you recall the dimensions on both the GT30r Turbine wheel and the GT35r turbine wheels?

There is a guy on the Evolution.net forums that had a divided .78 housing on his GT30r and said it spooled quicker with that turbine housing vs the open .63 he originally had, both down low and uptop(rpm's).
Bottom line is that I hope I'm not doing a bad comparison.
Now he's attempting to use a A/R 1.03 divided on a GT35r but the thing surges like krazee. He's says it pulls damn good though. He's using stck cams and valves I might add and has mentioned that he wanted to try the turbo with an anti-surge compressor housing. I'm still following his thread waiting for the results.

 

[ceedawg]

Hmmmm interesting as a side note.

Your choice of Turbine housing sizes.
.80 a/r ratio (14.77cm, 2.29sq in)
.70 a/r ratio (12.06cm, 1.87sq in)


No one knows the truth!

 

[Maglin]

For the oil inlet I used a regular AN fitting with a copper washer under it. It was a steel AN fitting mind you. I don't know the thread pitch as I happen to have like 30 different AN fitting laying around and I just went through them until I found one. They threw a copper waster under it to seal it up. And I had no oil leaks.

 

[ceedawg]

Here is an interesting chart:

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Holset 6blade HX40

Compressor wheel: 60mm (2.36") inducer by 84mm (3.30") overall 6-blade

Exhaust wheel: 64mm (2.51") exducer by 76mm (2.99") overall

GT35r versions have bigger turbine wheels all around even though the 6 bladed HX40 compressor wheel seems to have similar dimensions to the GT35r. Compared to the GT30 r versions the Hx 40 6blade has some numerical similarities with the wheel dimensions as well.

The question is still how will the turbine wheel in the HX40 will react to said housings with gas is what is molesting my mind.

I guess the 16 to 18cm may be the ticket. I am very tempted to find a 16cm housing. I perhaps may have to keep the 14cm housing as well.

 

[dsm-onster]

Just cut the 18.5 cm housing and put it on! Take it to the track and ask joe with the st! for a timeslip. Find out who's the fastest.

 

[GORBS88]

My goal is to wax the ass of my buddies STi which has a GT35r with a single opened .83 A/R housing.

It won't take anything more then a bolt-on HX-35 to do that. I've yet to see a fast subaru.

What do they run with a gt35r. mid high 11's??

 

[ceedawg]

My goal is to wax the ass of my buddies STi which has a GT35r with a single opened .83 A/R housing.

It won't take anything more then a bolt-on HX-35 to do that. I've yet to see a fast subaru.

What do they run with a gt35r. mid high 11's??

Not to sure but I also have to agree with you on the fact that I've never seen to many fast subies,especially compared to EVO's.

 

[ceedawg]

Just cut the 18.5 cm housing and put it on! Take it to the track and ask joe with the st! for a timeslip. Find out who's the fastest.

I think I'll do that and be content. I will prbably aim to try out a 16cm housing if I sell the 14cm housing. Of course that would depend on interest.

 

[GORBS88]

Not to sure but I also have to agree with you on the fact that I've never seen to many fast subies,especially compared to EVO's.

You got that right, just search on YOU TUBE (STI-EVO) and EVERY race between the two ends up with the EVO car lenghts ahead.

Or there will be a comparison where the EVO and the STI dyno with gt35r turbos and the EVO will make 600+ AWHP and the STI will be 400+.

But back on topic i am replacing my bolt on HX40 with the bullseye .70 A/R housing so should be back running in a few weeks for an update.

 

[dsm-onster]

I read your thread on blowing up your hx40. Did you have PDR rebuild it? Or did you just go with a new one from them? Did they mention any shaft/bearing issues with the older h1e? There site mentions modifictions to the oiling of the hx40 shaft and zero balancing.

 

[GORBS88]

I read your thread on blowing up your hx40. Did you have PDR rebuild it? Or did you just go with a new one from them? Did they mention any shaft/bearing issues with the older h1e? There site mentions modifictions to the oiling of the hx40 shaft and zero balancing.

The one that i blew up was NOT from them but after i started to read on them thats when i found there site and many others saying the shaft is weak. I called them to get one of there modifyed ones so i wouldnt have to worry about it again but they were less then helpful.
I told them i was running it on a talon and that i wanted to buy one and use my exhaust housing,he said there are 40 different hx-40's out there and that it wouldnt work. So i just found another used one.
AS far as i know it's just the hx-40 that is weak but i can't guarentee that.

 

[GORBS88]

Here is the shaft, not sure how good the pic is but you can see that the bushing surface closest to the turbine wheel is real burnt and the heat goes down the shaft.

I KNOW it wasn't a oiling issue cause when it took out the seal there was oil EVERYWHERE. Could not see behind the car and the exhaust was FULL of oil when i pulled the turbo.

 

[Mr Peepers]

Here's a secret: With big power, the transition from turbine runner to turbine housing is very important. Look at the fp race manifold. Not equal length runners, but that's not important. Look at the angle of attack and the smooth transition to turbine inlet diameter. The t4 flange allows for the runners to be larger in diameter without such a difference in transition as some of the transition ends up being in the turbine housing itself.

Just trying to wrap my mind around this:

What you're saying is that you want the collector to smoothly "guide" the exhaust into the turbine housing inlet, correct? What I see in the FP race mani compared to most other cast manifolds is the absence of an abrupt 90* turn from the runners to the collector outlet/turbine inlet. The runners start to curve down towards the turbine inlet long before the collector, and the collector has and "pyramid" in the middle to further guide the exhaust.

Would you say this poorly drawn picture illustrates what you're describing?

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[dsm-onster]

The one that i blew up was NOT from them but after i started to read on them thats when i found there site and many others saying the shaft is weak. I called them to get one of there modifyed ones so i wouldnt have to worry about it again but they were less then helpful.
I told them i was running it on a talon and that i wanted to buy one and use my exhaust housing,he said there are 40 different hx-40's out there and that it wouldnt work. So i just found another used one.
AS far as i know it's just the hx-40 that is weak but i can't guarentee that.

I get the same bull from other shops. That's one reason why I was asking you. Seams that HTTurbo.com is the only shop that understands . . . I was across the bay at a NoVA diesel shop looking for hx35 compressor housing v-band couplers and possibly a place that could swap my h1e wheel on myh1c. They kept giving me that line. By the end I got frutrated and curtly smugged, "Well, that's interesting, SOMETHING in my engine bay was causing my boost gauge to read 20psi by mid range." And I opened my hood. So now, I never talk to a shop about my sport compact. I just sport a tennessee accent and tell them, "Ima needin' this hare turba own my pickumup famore pool."



Yea, Matt. The one on the right that looks like. . . I have a dirty mind. . . . makes a big difference in overall flow. There's very little difference between our stock manifolds and a "log" manifold design. The runners are divide, yes, and they do flow rather well vs. many other stock turbo headers. But, that transition is so botched. And so many of us just port the thing and the turbo instead of adding the ring seal that goes with the gasket. And infact, the BEP housing doesn't even accomodate the metal ring seal. So you have all kinds of business with gases running into a large collector chamber before funnelling down the scroll, running into the other runner thats not divided off, making hard 90* turns to accellerate to the turbine wheel. Momentum, momentum, momentum.

One thing about a divided scroll setup is that it almost forces you to make a better transition. Merging the coupled runners as a V into the scroll is about as easy as merging them as a T.

 

[cloead]

I posted a while back in this thread, but I thought I should update.

I just got my car running again last night, hx40 with a bullseye housing, with an external gate.

Running 1000cc injectors, gm maf, dsmlink, bla bla bla, stock 7 bolt.

Lets see what this thing can do =]

Car is at my friends shop getting the ic piping worked out, I'm way too lazy to deal with that right now. Shooting for tuning at the end of the week. Will post an update then!

Oh and one important thing I thought I should post, if anyone ever says this turbo is a bolt on affair with the bullseye housing is out of their mind, at least in my case. I had to dent the crap out of my water pipe. Then once I put it all back together I found out that I had split the water pipe by going a little too crazy on it. So last night we got another water pipe in there and I was a little more cautious with it, and all is well. But now I'm leaking coolant from somewhere else, but I'm 99% sure it's from not tightening the hose clamp on one of those little hoses off the water pipe, but I guess I'll find out later if I have to take it all back apart again ;X

 

[ceedawg]

I posted a while back in this thread, but I thought I should update.

I just got my car running again last night, hx40 with a bullseye housing, with an external gate.

Running 1000cc injectors, gm maf, dsmlink, bla bla bla, stock 7 bolt.

Lets see what this thing can do =]

Can't wait to see the dyno results. Please post when finished.