Holset Turbos, PART 3

[dsm-onster]

What are you using to tune?

DSMlink . I'm an idiot. I shouldn't have pushed it. I'd have done better at least enabling fake maf.

Are we talking about the two volutes in the 18.5 cm housing combined?

Not at all. Remember. I'm contesting that since the exhaust is delivered in pulses, then pulse timing comes into play. A pulse that has twice as much time to push through a turbine wheel needs a smaller individual volute to flow well.

 

[gixrman]

Gixrman, that look good. Are the runners equal length? The don't appear to be. Not that it matters much.

No I tried too, several times. I did read that its not as critical on a turbo manifold so I gave up.

 

[ceedawg]

DSMlink . I'm an idiot. I shouldn't have pushed it. I'd have done better at least enabling fake maf.




Not at all. Remember. I'm contesting that since the exhaust is delivered in pulses, then pulse timing comes into play. A pulse that has twice as much time to push through a turbine wheel needs a smaller individual volute to flow well.

Gotcha and makes sense!

 

[ceedawg]

Here are some interesting facts I picked out of this thread concerning Honda owners and their various Holset(H1e,HX35,40 setups) Good stuff!

Various Honda's from this Holset thread and pretty good at that:

Honda-Tech.com: Forced Induction: Holset users unite!

Honda's with Holsets:

hx40 with 16cm hsing 11.00 @134.68 mph

HX35 hsing ? 14 or 16cm 11.68@ 118mph

dyno test of 1 honda 402whp 325wtq HX35 hsing? 14 or 16 cm

HX35 with 16cm hsing 12.4 @ 121mph

Got these out of this thread posted above. on the lil honda motors,1.6 to 2.2L motors. Some are V-tecs

 

[dsm-onster]

Little? They rev higher and have better ve because of head design. Beware of the H22.

. . .But that's all worthless because, with the above exception, they shatter at 300whp. A broke block flows nothing though the head. It takes more money to reach a certain trap speed with a honda than a dsm, traction aside. The difference in the cost of honda blockwork, we can have forged internals and all the tumble, swirl, quickburn and all the other formula one tech a honda could offer plus a JM fabs smim and an FP race exhaust mani; and be 700+ whp capable. DSMs are still king of cheap speed.

Now that I've vented, that thread gives alot of info and should definately be read along with the dsm threads. Turboford.org also has lots of holset info. Those guys seem to still put out great power with holsets dispite the appalling pile of bunkum Ford left on top of their 2.3 blocks. And the e30tech.com/forum has lots of holset tidbits.

I'm going to fix my head gasket now .

 

[Maglin]

Oh Matt I'm sorry. I actually was going to tell you that your 1G MAF would max out fast and cause some serious issues. I had my 1G maf on when I first installed my HX35. It was very very very nasty fuel cut type experience when it decided it couldn't go any higher. I can't remember what it's called right now. My buddies in the car where like holy shit and then it would just feel like the motor almost locked up. And it was right around 22ish PSI. Once I went with the MAFT it ran like a demon on holy water. Until it started dropping out and I decided it was time to ditch the MAFT for the MS II.

Honda's are far better designed when it comes to head design. It's kind of hard to really compare a Honda's Holset output and a DSM's output on same setup.

And when it comes to cheap speed I have to add to that. DSM's are the kings of cheap speed until around 450ish HP. After that just about every 4 cylinder requires different various things done and you end up spending about the same for the power output. It used to be $10/HP as a rule of thumb that you would spend on your car. I think it's more like $13/HP now a days. That is using bolt on non custom fab stuff. When you cross that bridge money shouldn't be an issue to you, and if it is it's a bridge you probably shouldn't even be looking at. I have about $7-8K in my car and the motor was still bone stock. Now it's built and I'm debating on tearing it down again to do a few more things to the rotating assembly to maybe pull 12K RPMs out of it with consistency.

Overrun is what's it's called with the 1G MAF and 2G MAF. And final thoughts. Matt get away from 20 PSI and torture your car man. Run 30 PSI and your linier power band concept will totally get shoot out of the water. Once you hit about 15ish PSI it will just rocket up to your set boost. At 20 PSI it's really hard to tell it as it's only 3-5 PSI it's climbing and the WG is probably already starting to open which is also slowing down the spool up. Mine was the same. 2Kish it would be running 4-5 PSI and 3K would be about 10 PSI. Then at 3600ish It would see 15-16 PSI and rocket to 30-32 PSI by 3800 RPM. It's crazy and would always spin the tires in 1st and 2nd and eat up a fresh road in 3rd.
Edit: And that was with new Dunlop FM901's on ADR Formula 5's. Those wheels are heavy and I hate them. I'm looking forward to putting my Weld Pro Star's on with some Hoosier wrinckle walls. Should free up quite a bit of HP as each wheel will weight about 10-13 lbs less each.

 

[ceedawg]

Turboford.org also has lots of holset info. Those guys seem to still put out great power with holsets dispite the appalling pile of bunkum Ford left on top of their 2.3 blocks. And the e30tech.com/forum has lots of holset tidbits.

I'm going to fix my head gasket now .

Yes I've joined those threads recently just to read about the holsets. E28forum.com is another good one.

As far as cylinder head design I had read the opposite. I was told that our 4g63 heads were better than the Honda heads and that the DSM ports were bigger. That's two things I heard. That could be wrong but no big deal,as long as I'm making power and my motor does not need sleeves to make it,I could care less. Honda's are still great cars engineering wise and reliability wise. The "lil honda motor" comment was tongue in cheek!

However,the purpose of my link below was to show what some of the honda guys were running and doing with the same exact model Holsets we've been discussing.

Some of these cars are running pretty damn good with the HX40 and 35's using 14cm and 16cm housings.

Let me add that it looks like alot of these guys are going with non divided mani's and cannot spool these things till the upper 4krpm's to some reporting 5k rpm's . Then again they are V-tec motors. I wonder though if the 2.2L Honda motor has the same problem.

I know we are talking about two different motors but I'm definitely going TS on the mani. I'm also wondering if the 14cm housing is gonna flow more than the 16cm housing and if the 16cm housing is gonna flow more than the 18.5cm housing. It seems like the 16cm houing may give more balance but I guess I will have to try them all.

I'll have to get this 18.5 cm hosing bored out as well and cut off the 2.5inch outlet lip to increase it to 3" as well.

 

[dsm-onster]

No I tried too, several times. I did read that its not as critical on a turbo manifold so I gave up.

The FP race manifold is no equal length either. Look in who's engine bays that piece has been.

Jeremiah, It felt very similar to fuel cut! Like a rev limiter gone terribly wrong. The graph of my maf hertz looked like a sawblade! Yea, I Knew of 1g maf overrun. I've encountered it before. I was stupid and pushed it anyway. I have a 2g maf and pigtail on my desk right now. Meters enough to break a stock 6 bolt block.

I DEFINATELY am in this for more than 20psi. 20psi won't let me reach my goals. So, after 15 psi is where the hard hit is. Come to think of it, that wicked toquesteer reared itself right at around 15-17psi, where you say the hx35 "hit". I couldn't really pay attention to my boost gauge at that point . After regaining contol, my boost was sitting right in between 20 & 21 psi. Then the maf overrun kicked in . Strong ELHSs, a better LSD, and better rubber are on my list anyway. The 2g maf is going on during the gasket swap. Seems like the h1c performs very similar to an hx35, so far.

Maybe I'm a little sick, but I'm not bothered at all about swapping the headgasket. I'm glad its not a piston.

 

[Steve93Talon]

I have a 2g maf and pigtail on my desk right now. Meters enough to break a stock 6 bolt block.

Maybe I'm a little sick, but I'm not bothered at all about swapping the headgasket. I'm glad its not a piston.

Plenty of people have overrun 2G MAFs long before reaching the limits of a stock 6 bolt

You're not sick, to a DSMer swapping a head gasket or clutch is like changing the oil to regular people. I recently had a friend over with his GTI, he was using my garage to change his plugs. I jokingly said that I'd have the head off a 1G I was working on before he was done (I'd already torn down the timing stuff and had the harness unplugged and out of the way). 10 minutes later, he was screwing the last plug in as I was lifting the head off.

 

[dsm-onster]

Good. I'm not the only one. I thought that I had some special attachment to my car or something. Maybe we all have to in order to put up with the quirks. . .

I've seen 2g mafs go to 500whp. A safe limit for a 6-bolt, in my book. But, yea the dsmlink wiki states that the 2g maf metering starts getting jerky at around 2700hz (around 610cfm) or about 400hp. I'll bet those mafs running more whp were hacked! I'm debating hacking the 2g maf and calibrating or running an evo maf. I don't want to run fake maf. I want an actual meter showing what this thing can flow.

 

[420a-t]

greengoblin made 575whp on his 2g maf so it can be done for sure.

 

[dsm-onster]

Last I heard on the DSMLink forums was that Kevin made 546whp with a hacked 2g maf. . . Which is why I'm going back and forth. That's still plenty metering to wring out this turbo if he didn't use the link VE function. I can't remember if he ever mentioned using fake maf or not.

 

[ceedawg]

Sorry to chg the subject but here is an interesting lil tid bit I'm adding by staying on the Holset topic!:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this line was taken from another post.....its from Silverback

Lastly, read this carefully, THERE IS NO FORMULA TO CONVERT holset's area^2 turbine housing sizing to an A/R. the 22cm^2 that you see on one is just the area of part of the diffuser nozzle. It's not even measured the same way as the "area" part of A/R. It doesn't even meant he same thing in the same line, for example, a 22cm^2 housing on an HX50 with a 72mm turbine wheel will have a different A/R then a 22cm^2 housing on an HX50 with a 77mm turbine wheel. If you want to know the A/R you need to MEASURE it yourself.

FWIW, I have measured the A/R on a 22cm^2 H1E housing (the one that is the largest H1E/HX40, like what Throbbin is using) and it measures out to be right around .97 or .98 A/R (I filled it with expanding foam, sectioned it and measured the area vs the radius it was away from the center of the housing in a few places)
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Based on this it would seem that I may be close with the 18.5cm2 hsin on the HX 40 coming close to being .83 to .90!

This turbine housing stuff is making me krazee! Godd info non the less even though I am finding 1000 opinions.

 

[Steve93Talon]

Based on this it would seem that I may be close with the 18.5cm2 hsin on the HX 40 coming close to being .83 to .90

That doesn't matter. It's still just a RATIO, not a size. It would only be useful in comparing it to other Holsets in the same family - but then you can already do that with the cm2 number they come with.

 

[ceedawg]

That doesn't matter. It's still just a RATIO, not a size. It would only be useful in comparing it to other Holsets in the same family - but then you can already do that with the cm2 number they come with.

Oh you're absolutely correct. I pretty much knew that but it's fun to sort of throw the Garrett thing in there even though I know it's technically wrng. It kinda adds a little perspective but I know that's useless comparing turbo's from different families.
I think I'll also delete those lil #'s down there at the bottom of my sig.

 

[IPT]

Cool HX35 Engine dyno video on a 2.3L Ford

YouTube - 585 hp 2.3l ford on pump gas Street-N-Strip

 

[dsm-onster]

585 crank hp at 7200rpms & 28 psi is awesome with a 2 valve head! Even with the ported stock intake manifold (which does debated little) and a tubular header. The head did look aluminum, probably an Esslinger?. . . Still very impressive!!!

I just decided to take snap shots of my logs on the other computer. I can't get the files over to this PC. Both logs are with identical engine bay/mods but different turbos.

Mods:
Cold air intake ducting
K&N cone filter
3" intake pipe
Ebay FMIC (21" X 9" X 2.5"), Short route 2.25" intercooler piping
1g n/t throttlebody (no restrictive 1g turbo TB elbow)
FP2X cams and Manley springs
ARP head studs
Stock 6bolt with fresh rings
Evo3 exhaust manifold
DSMLink, Walbro 255hp, 1000cc injectors
3" turboback exhaust with a glasspack and resonator tip

The only differenc between the two setups is the 2g o2 housing used with the 16g and, for the h1c, the ebay tubular o2 housing with POOR flow characteristics(I don't recommend using it for an upgrade ).

The top is the not-so-small small 16g @ 22 psi. On that run, I saw as much as 36 lbs/min with my unported unclipped small16g with this setup on a maf that was showing lower airflow than actual because of maf overrun. As you can see in the pic of the first log below.

The bottem is the H1C @ only 20 psi and 15 degrees warmer intake temps. This is at 5280 rpms. This shows how much more flow the h1c allows with the same mods. The h1c flowed 1.9 lbs/min more at 2 psi less and 15 degrees warmer intake temp at the same altitude. 90 more hertz volume flow at only 5300 rpms and less boost!

If I was able to boost to 22 psi with the h1c without maf overrun, I would see around 4 lbs/min more airflow than the 16g by 5300rpms at 22 psi!!! The h1c boosts to 20psi by 3500-3700rpms. The h1c clearly rises to a higher horsepower potenial EARLIER than a 16g that is not being pushed to it's limit in those lower rpms. Very streetable, imo.

I paid the same for the small 16g with boost creep issues as I did for my h1c, bolt-on housing, rock-solid boosting ebay external gate, and ebay o2 housing. I did more work because I modified the o2 housing to accept the external gate.

. . . I had time to pull my head today. The compression results were #1-60, #2-90, #3-100, #4-120. Maf overrun led to egg-shaping every single fire ring on the head gasket.

 

[Mr Peepers]

Home of Turbo 4 Cylinder Mustang

An awesome budget build up of a junkyard 2.3 turbo Mustang(SVO).

The point when he starts using an hx-35:
January 7th 2003

Runs mid 12's@~110

 

[420a-t]

I havn't had time to check yet, but is the oil return flanged for a t3-style return fitting? It's a square hole, I've never ran anything but mitsu so I'm not sure.

How are you guys doing the return lines? I was thinking of using my stock return and cutting it so it still bolt's on to the pan, and clamping some ss hose onto that side and getting the correct fitting for the turbo. Thanks

 

[dsm-onster]

The flange is a t3 style flange. I used my t-bird TC garrett return line and coupled it to a ebay mhi style oil pan flange that has a big nipple welded to it. Do you have your t25 return line? Does that have a garrett t3 flange? It may be a little long.

I'd buy an ebay t3 to mitsu oil pan kit. They're very cheap. And it worked great with my t-netics turbo. I sold that with my t-netics. So I had to use my t-bird return line. Besides, the 14b/16g return lines are too expensive to destroy! Sell it on ebay or in the classifieds!

. . .Wow. In 4 months this THIRD thread is now over 2/3s the size of each of the other threads.

 

[420a-t]

Alright one more problem. I was trying to see where I needed to dent-in my coolant pipe for my turbo to clear, and the nipple that faces down off of the coolant pipe is in the way (1g head=1g water pipe). I can't dent it in, but I could cut it off and re-weld it somewhere else, but I really don't want to do that. I was thinking of a flange that goes inbewteen the turbo and the mani to lower the turbo out, but I think that might leak. Any suggestions? Could I use the coolant hole in the block that was used for a water-cooled turbo and get rid of that nipple? I'm so close to finishing my build!

 

[selmerguy]

here are some pics of a H1E holset. I was bidding on it but the power went out in my hooch here in the sandbox and I didnt get to win. Sucks, only went for 160 bucks. I have been reading alot on these things. They have a standard t3 oil drain flange and most people use a 3/8 npt fitting for the oil inlet. I am allready set up for this on my current setup. When I find one, other than the down pipe it should bolt right in.

 

[selmerguy]

More

 

[selmerguy]

Two more. I do have a question about the downpipes. I have red that even though the vband is three inchs. If you buy a 3 inch vband flange it wont seal right with the stock holsed exhaust housing. Those of you with the stock holset exhaust housing how well does your DP seal and where did you buy your flanges?

 

[ceedawg]

Two more. I do have a question about the downpipes. I have red that even though the vband is three inchs. If you buy a 3 inch vband flange it wont seal right with the stock holsed exhaust housing. Those of you with the stock holset exhaust housing how well does your DP seal and where did you buy your flanges?

Call BEP and ask or chk out some of the Ford,volvo,dodge truck forums,there are plenty of guys there that could tell you.

Worse comes to worse I would just have the present flange cut off and use an after market V-band setup which I will have to do anyway since my holset turbine housing outlet is only 2.5"'s.

By the way how many cm's is that turbine housing you r using? Is it an 18.5cm?