Holset Turbos, PART 4

[kicker91laser]

Where can I find a divided T3 housing for the HX40?

I have one, pm me if you are interested.

 

[delta448]

The stock Holset compressor housing has a T4 divided flange.

Sorry, by exhaust housing, I meant compressor housing, not o2 housing. Sorry for the confusion

A compressor cover as darkhorizon is referring to, actually covers the compressor wheel. Yes, they know about the different exhaust housings, which cover the exhaust side's turbine wheel, not the intake side's compressor wheel. I think you just got mixed up with terminology.

Circled in red below.

 

[ScottH]

Yea, for like 1k......I dunno Scott, the cost to do this might just be too high for me right now

Yeah to do it the way you wanna do its ridiculously expensive. $1000 for just the manifold is alot. Even though it's a nice manifold it's defeats the purpose of going with a holset because it's a budget turbo that works well. I'd just bite the bullet and go with either the hx35 or hx40 with the BEP hotside. Either in dsm bolt on format or 70ar T3. It's not gonna spool up as fast as a T25 but the little amount of lag will be worth the wait when it hits full boost.

 

[AXRabbit376]

A compressor cover as darkhorizon is referring to, actually covers the compressor wheel. Yes, they know about the different exhaust housings, which cover the exhaust side's turbine wheel, not the intake side's compressor wheel. I think you just got mixed up with terminology.

Circled in red below.

O, ok. My bad. I was not aware that BEP made compressor housings, just turbine housings

 

[dsm-onster]

Darkhorizon, I think we NEED to know what your inducer measures. There are SEVERAL confirmed maps of the hx35 turbo. 4 show 51-52 lb/min. 2 show 60lb/min. We really need to know which wheel does what.

Your turbine housing setup most certainly has something to do with actually reaching the peak flow of the large hx35 maps. These hx35/h1c/wh1c turbine wheels are not much bigger than t3 stage 3 turbine wheels, with more blades and a tighter angle. The simple open header design makes the twin scroll housing become a GIANT single scroll. Running a divided manifold with a twinscroll will force each pulse to see only half of the total housing volume, and peak flow may suffer. 6 cylinder has to get the pulses out faster before the next (3 fires on each side of the turbine housing per revolution, vs. a 4 cylinder with 2 fires on each side). So for us 4 cylinder guys, we may be able to reach higher peak flows with a divided runner manifold and twin scroll (TS) housing. The evo guys don't complain about loosing flow and not maxing out their evo8 16g compressors.

Any divided manifold and TS turbine design will help engine VE, since there is much less back pressure present. Because of the fact that a TS and matching header shields the overlap time from the exhaust pulse of the next firing cylinder.

 

[darkhorizon]

I can grab measurements soon this morning.

For what its worth, I talked to a "holset insider" that apparently "had" the right compressor maps straight from holset, and he is saying that we are not on the right path looking at the HX30e maps. He reminded me that max flow is not what makes a turbo better or worse than another one. But then, he sorta contradicted himself in the terms that the HX35 "should" have a very wide map, considering its advertised as being map width enhanced.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well, I think that opinion leans more toward a diesel application. Diesels easily surge a turbo. The MWE is a surge deterent. This is why a holset is better for a diesel. High boost efficiency and no matter the boost or rpm, no surge.

My big h1c, with no MWE groove (just the webbing) doesn't surge at all. And when the groove was cut in, the spool slowed a little. Us gases don't have to worry about surge like diesels. . . We appaently flow well enough to be farther to the right on the map even as a 4 cylinder. We're not towing anything that will cause enough load to spool the turbo to 30 psi at 1000rpms with their 5.9, or for us by 2900rpms with our 4 cylinder (Disp X RPMs = Volume/min). We need to know how much the compressor flows. And we need to know if the turbine can spin it and flows enough to get those gases out. We can't just turn up the gas and get more power. We need air. We all know that holsets have higher efficiency. Compressor flow is only half the story hence my comment above.

There is an hx35 map that is not the hx30e-7755 map.

But when you them, you see that they are practically identical. Every point (PR, lb/min) that you plot on one map, the other map at the same coordinates has the same or VERY close to the same efficieny and rpm. . .

 

[darkhorizon]

That picture makes my eyes hurt!

So are you officially saying I might have a hx30e compressor on my hands, thats simply labeled as a HX35?

I am going outside soon, have to finish up a test.

 

[dsm-onster]

I'm saying that the hx30e-7755 compressor spits out the same map as the 8blade hx35. 52 lb/min maximum with the same efficiency bands and rpm curves.

The hx30e-7765 looks very similar to the holset map found on that Cummins Technologies Holset Frame Sizes .pdf that we have and you reminded me of in one of your recent PMs. The one here.

Thanx for taking the time to measure. This really does help us

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!

The hx30w is tiny. . . Perhaps that gentleman you were talking about was referring to the hx30/hx30w (not hx30e):

 

[darkhorizon]

no, he was not mistaken. I trust him as an authority on this discussion.

Still finishing up homework.

 

[darkhorizon]

The inducer is indeed 56mm, the exducer is 78mm.

 

[dsm-onster]

D@mn.

This means that any 7blade hx35 guys have this in their future, if they have enough turbine flow. If they're running the bolton bep housing, then the upgrade to the .70 a/r housing is a gain for sure. . .

One less compressor blade (8blade 56mm inducer vs. 7 blade 56mm) makes more of a difference than I thought. . .

 

[SpeedAddict62]

D@mn.

This means that any 7blade hx35 guys have this in their future, if they have enough turbine flow. If they're running the bolton bep housing, then the upgrade to the .70 a/r housing is a gain for sure. . .

One less compressor blade (8blade 56mm inducer vs. 7 blade 56mm) makes more of a difference than I thought. . .

Ok...sorry if I sound like a newblet, but this post has me confused,

1. What compressor wheels do we know exist for the HX35 (8 blade 56mm, 7 blade 56mm, etc.)?

2. What is the estimated flow rate for each?

 

[dsm-onster]

We're learning every day. The hx35 in the bolton housing at the very least flows more than the 50-trim and spools faster than an evo3 16g.

There seams to be only a 56mm inducer for any stock hx35. The 7 blade has brrn proven to push upwards of a 60-1, at 60ish lb/min. This is in gt35r territory. . . And it spools as fast as what?

 

[SpeedAddict62]

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I just checked my bedroom and sure enough I have a 7 blade HX35. Now I just need a non wastegated 12 cm^2 housing, a divided T3 manifold, 2 Tial wastegates and a new 02 housing...this might take a while.

 

[JWoodley]

So in terms of flow.... 6 > 7 > 8?

 

[dsm-onster]

yea, if there was a 6 blade hx35...

 

[1gDSM4g63]

What's the stock Holset HX40 T3 divided housing size? I presume it's much bigger than the BEP .70 a/r housing and if it is can it spool faster the BEP undivided housing?

 

[Morphius]

I find the maps around now, pretty interesting. The one that was posted on another site (looks home made), personally, I think he took my plot, added some 'islands'. I know it's not from cummins as it's in lbs per min. But it doesn't matter, I have better kung-fu.


I've spent about a month going though my old computers trying to get the original data I was sent. I found the 2003/2004.5 data, but only what I pasted in that file for the 2002 HX stuff. I couldn't find the origional file for the 02 data. So, I don't have the serial/model #'s off it (HX35-XXXXXXX) like I do the 2003/2004.5 data. I'm still looking for that file, but it may be lost. I even tried pulling up archieve for my mail, but it's converted some things making it unusable.


Also, if you compare it to the plot I provided before, you'll notice some differences.

1. Somewhere in the process I messed up the correction factor changing it to CFM on the 2002 HX, so it's shifted on the old plot. It is RIGHT now. Plotted as provided to me. It better overlaps the other maps, which to me, makes more sense now that I look at it closely.

2. In the conversations between the me and the cummins contact, I either misunderstood or he miswrote, which model was which for the 2003/2004.5 model data. So, looking at the plot I first provided, the two models are mislabeled. The black is the HE351, the red is the HY35. Not the other way around.

My appologies for providing the wrong info. Wasn't my intention, but mistakes happen. So, for your viewing pleasure, here is the original data with 2002 over plotted in the preferrd units for comparison to the HX40 maps that were released. Again, Green is 2002 HX35. Red is 2003 HY35. Black is 2004.5 HE351.

I think in the raw data ,I have also have the islands, so I'll have to dig through it and see if I can get it plotted. It wasn't plotted, so not like I can easily pick it out. We'll see.

 

[dsm-onster]

Good stuff!! That same unit of volume is shown on the holset maps that have a corresponding lb/min on top. The conversion ends up being X * 0.7666 = lb/min. The later hx35 shows 88 units of volume. Therefore the maximum flow is 67lb/min??? WOW!

The hy35-7765 map looks identical to the hx30e-7765 map. But no matter we have real maps that are labeled specifically for the turbos we're using.

I wonder if the turbine can allow this much flow. . .

 

[420a-t]

Just so everyone knows I have a stock brand new divided turbine housing for a holset H1E turbo, and I'm pretty sure it will fit an hx-40 if anyone is interested in it.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

Just so everyone knows I have a stock brand new divided turbine housing for a holset H1E turbo, and I'm pretty sure it will fit an hx-40 if anyone is interested in it.

First off, what are the specs on of H1E stock housing and will it fit a HX40?

Secondly it help with faster spool rate if I go with a twin-scroll manifold vs. BEP T3 .70 a/r undivided housing?

 

[Slippi84]

First off, what are the specs on of H1E stock housing and will it fit a HX40?

Secondly it help with faster spool rate if I go with a twin-scroll manifold vs. BEP T3 .70 a/r undivided housing?

If you go with like a 16cm housing yeah but not a 18.5. Some people think it will be similar with a 18.5cm housing but trust me I have owned both and that 18.5cm housing is BIG. Either way can't go wrong it just depends on your goal.

 

[GST95]

I got my WH1C on my car today. I ran out of time to play around, but so far im happy with it. Im using the stock 12cm holset exhaust housing and a non divided ebay header. My first impression is that is spools faster than the precision scm6031 that was previously on the car, but seems to pull as good. I didnt make any exhaust for it, so i dont have my o2 sensor hooked up either. It could use some port work to control the creep for most people, but i dont think im gunna worry about it. This weekend ill measure the backpressure to compare it with the precision. I was getting 45psi backpressure at 7500rpm and 30psi boost on that turbo. My egt dropped at least 100*, so either the new setup has less backpressure or its running richer now for some reason.

I dont know how long ill keep this turbo on my car though. I had it already from a spare cummins that i bought for my truck, so it was just an experiment. I wasnt even sure it was any good because it had oil in both housings, but i think it was just from the engine sitting crooked for a while. I have a new hx40 with a t3 18cm housing on its way, so it will probably go on soon.

 

[b00stedtalon2]

HX52. Less than 1cm of clearance above the 1g motor mount bracket.

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