1G Failed break-in, bearing wear opinions

[97gsxIA]

Long story short, I had a 6bolt shortblock built by one of the bigger names in the DSM community. Who I will leave off this post for now.

First oil change was clean, second was glitter. Crank had walked. End play was .011. Caught it early.

40 miles total. Pulled the engine, contacted the builder and he immediately started questioning my clutch setup. I walked through with him my setup, clutch adjustment measurements (confirming clutch wasn't preloading the crank) Yada Yada Yada. I even bore scoped a video of the mated engine/trans to prove the input shaft sleeve wasn't riding the clutch disk hub, as he also jumped to that conclusion.

I was expecting to see just the thrust surface worn up, but it was the thrust surface AND that entire half of the center main bearing.

Crank journals are spotless.

Curious of others opinions. I'm of the mind of a botched machinist or him not aligning the thrust bearing on assembly. Not to say my heavy pressure plate wasn't contributing... but to do it in 40 miles when I had the same clutch for 6 years on my last one is hard to believe.

Anyone have any thoughts on this wear pattern?

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[fourgsixty3]

Damn that sucks. I hope the builder makes it right but just from what you've been willing to share I'm not sure he really wants to. I know there are two sides to every story so let's see how this plays out. I'd also like to know who the builder is so I can make an informed decision on where to take my business when I'm ready to build my engine. Keep us updated and good luck.

 

[curt-s]

He's talking about 'aligning' the thrust bearing. You pry against the crank while torqueing the center main to align the two halves of the thrust bearing on 6 bolts.

Ah. Never heard it called preloading the crank before, since you're actually trying to minutely adjust the bearing placements by aligning the cap.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Thrust bearing journal width as measured on one of my 6 bolt OEM cranks. It came out of a stock motor that was running but I didn't check endplay before tearing it down.
I checked this so we all have a "general" idea of the correct width. One is in inches and then I changed it to mm's.

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Here is a 7 bolt width on a stock crank. It also wasn't measured for endplay before removal so these are "close" but probably not perfect.

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[bastarddsm]

There is a lot of things that can go wrong here. Clutch adjustment can be a problem, not aligning the thrust bearings well, or even dirt, bad crank or too tight.

Somethings not right if you have 0.001" main clearance.

good chance the main bores were not touched. Generally you'd at least touch up the surface on the caps, and those look untouched.

Doesn't look like the block was cleaned too well either.

IF you want help here you are gonna have to share more details. What crank is in it, pull a bearing shell out and see what they are. Picture of the surface of the main bore. Sounds like you've allready been told to piss up a rope anyway. Was this a fully assembled engine or just a shortblock. Honestly, don't expect any kind of warranty if it was a shortblock. So many places for an inexperienced guy to f*** up there.

If you really want to figure out what happened you need to take it to another real engine shop, and not a competitor of who you had build it.

Also I should add that in general a fancy shop with a record car means probably crap work. Too busy with own shit to do a good job on yours. The "hero" isn't doing the work, it's a $10/hr guy in the back that dgaf building your engine. They gotta get so much work through the door just to make the lease payment, then pay the help and pay for the race car. It takes me 2 days to put a short-block together for my car, measuring/cleaning/checking ect. You think someone with a $10k/mo lease is spending that kinda time on your motor. Good luck.

 

[97gsxIA]

There is a lot of things that can go wrong here. Clutch adjustment can be a problem, not aligning the thrust bearings well, or even dirt, bad crank or too tight.

Somethings not right if you have 0.001" main clearance.

good chance the main bores were not touched. Generally you'd at least touch up the surface on the caps, and those look untouched.

Doesn't look like the block was cleaned too well either.

IF you want help here you are gonna have to share more details. What crank is in it, pull a bearing shell out and see what they are. Picture of the surface of the main bore. Sounds like you've allready been told to piss up a rope anyway. Was this a fully assembled engine or just a shortblock. Honestly, don't expect any kind of warranty if it was a shortblock. So many places for an inexperienced guy to f*** up there.

If you really want to figure out what happened you need to take it to another real engine shop, and not a competitor of who you had build it.

Also I should add that in general a fancy shop with a record car means probably crap work. Too busy with own shit to do a good job on yours. The "hero" isn't doing the work, it's a $10/hr guy in the back that dgaf building your engine. They gotta get so much work through the door just to make the lease payment, then pay the help and pay for the race car. It takes me 2 days to put a short-block together for my car, measuring/cleaning/checking ect. You think someone with a $10k/mo lease is spending that kinda time on your motor. Good luck.

My man, you always come in, guns blaze'n.

I know there are many causes of crankwalk. I never asked anyone here to help me diagnose the crankwalk, or help me fix it. I was just curious what other's opinions were on the unique bearing wear and that evolved into finding the obviously tight bearing clearance.

This just happened, so its fresh. Should never have even mentioned it was done by some shop on here. I should have just said it was me so you could ridicule me, instead. I'm upset about it (as anyone would be) so I vented a bit and shouldn't have that's my bad.

I'm not inexperienced, the guy who put it together isn't inexperienced, and mistakes, overlooks and negligence happen to the best and worst people.
I should have pulled the girdle and every cap and checked each one before I put it in and then raised my concerns immediately. But I was rushed, racing season was starting and I had an event to get to.

I will get this worked out with or without the builder that's involved. His and I's relationship can be discussed some other time after he gets a chance to see the things I've found and he responds. I've talked with him once and his wife once, but before I got the engine pulled. And half their shop is on vacation until Monday. So a lot of ingredients are in this shit pie.

To answer some of your questions
It was a shortblock build, the crank is an uncut Eagle std. stroke crank. They're ACL race bearings std. size confirmed by my eyeball and on the shop's invoice. I haven't pulled the crank yet, and won't until next week.

 

[97gsxIA]

Thrust bearing journal width as measured on one of my 6 bolt OEM cranks. It came out of a stock motor that was running but I didn't check endplay before tearing it down.
I checked this so we all have a "general" idea of the correct width. One is in inches and then I changed it to mm's.

Thanks Marty, I see what you're saying now. I'll do that here this weekend sometime.

 

[fourgsixty3]

I'd be upset too and would've done exactly the same thing as you; come here to vent and to get everyone's opinion on W T F happened. I can almost guarantee that if the shop didn't instantly dismiss this failure as your fault and instead said "bring it by and let's take a look at it", this post probably wouldn't have happened. If I'm spending thousands of dollars with someone I expect a little courtesy and so should you.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

What gets me is, if you have to measure it during the process, WRITE IT DOWN AND DOCUMENT IT, no matter what the numbers are. I put down the numbers I read, not what I want to see. That's just me tho. I'm just a drop in the bucket.

 

[danl]

To answer some of your questions
It was a shortblock build, the crank is an uncut Eagle std. stroke crank. They're ACL race bearings std. size confirmed by my eyeball and on the shop's invoice. I haven't pulled the crank yet, and won't until next week.

That crank journal needs to be measured. Could be off from new. The bearing in the block needs to be removed. Verify it is also a standard bearing. If arp mains were used, surfacing saddles and line honing is mandatory as was previously stated.

If you are stuck repairing, the oil pump needs to come off and inspected. Ideally anything that gets fed oil needs to come out and thoroughly cleaned, else you risk another issue. Crank, all bearings, oil pump, cams, turbo, oil cooler, etc. HLA’s should be replaced.

The good news is you can reverse engineer all the specs the engine was built to and the builder refused to provide. Just a little feather in your cap, maybe you make that information available somewhere. It’s the engine builders call as to how this ends. Don’t give up, you will get this fixed.

 

[97gsxIA]

Thanks for chiming in my man. I will do all the things.

 

[97gsxIA]

Thrust bearing journal width as measured on one of my 6 bolt OEM cranks. It came out of a stock motor that was running but I didn't check endplay before tearing it down.
I checked this so we all have a "general" idea of the correct width. One is in inches and then I changed it to mm's.

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Marty, mine measured out at 1.137.
Thank you for the reference point.

I looked up the ACL part number on the back of the bearing (1148H STD)
I'm seeing part numbers in their catalog for 6bolts listed as 1144H for STD and no 1148.

Wondering if 1148H is the specific p/n for the thrust bearing in the group part number 1144, a superceded p/n, or the wrong bearing p/n entirely.

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EDIT:
nevermind I found a table in their catalog, the p/n 1148H(f) is in the set of 5M1144H.
Its a confirmed STD size bearing.

 

[99dsmer4g63]

I came across this. Not sure if it helps or not but seems to be close to what you posted as a measurement.

-Daniel

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[We're on Boost]

So your ACL main bearings are H-STD.
You can also get HX-STD. The X means you get an extra .001" of clearance.
That's what I would do. Then your mains should have a clearance of about .002 inches.
It's no problem if you go a little over .002" clearance, in fact you would want that in a high power engine. Just don't use 5w-30 oil then. Use some w-50 oil.
These charts are figured for 5w-50 (charts by the VP of R&D at King Bearings). (ref Oil Clearance and Engine Bearings)
Your actual problem is likely something else. But I wouldn't want only .001" clearance like you showed with the plastigauge.

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[DSMPT]

Wondering if 1148H is the specific p/n for the thrust bearing in the group part number 1144, a superceded p/n, or the wrong bearing p/n entirely.

Please refer this.

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[danl]

So your ACL main bearings are H-STD.
You can also get HX-STD. The X means you get an extra .001" of clearance.
That's what I would do. Then your mains should have a clearance of about .002 inches.
It's no problem if you go a little over .002" clearance, in fact you would want that in a high power engine. Just don't use 5w-30 oil then. Use some w-50 oil.
These charts are figured for 5w-50 (charts by the VP of R&D at King Bearings). (ref Oil Clearance and Engine Bearings)
Your actual problem is likely something else. But I wouldn't want only .001" clearance like you showed with the plastigauge.

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You need sufficient flow to the thrust surface to maintain the film. With the reduced clearance at the journal radius, the thrust is starved of oil flow. This is extremely important at idle when oil pressure and thus flow is low and the clutch is being used.

The .001 clearance might be enough to avoid metal to metal contact at the journal radius (the cited diagram) but not enough to avoid metal to metal contact at the thrust (axial loading) with the clutch depressed. A common clutch for this application uses a 2600 pound pressure plate. That’s a lot of axial loading for the hydrodynamic wedge to keep separated.

 

[We're on Boost]

The .010 clearance might be enough to avoid metal to metal contact at the journal radius (the cited diagram) but not enough to avoid metal to metal contact at the thrust (axial loading) with the clutch depressed.

The reason I posted those diagrams is to give the OP some confidence that there is no problem if you go a little over .002" clearance, since that could happen if he switches from H to HX bearings.
Those diagrams are for radial bearings only, not thrust combined with radial. People should read the whole Substech article that I linked - it's a good writeup. Anyway, sure, .001" (not .010") is kind of a non-starter in my book. And I know what you are saying about feeding the thrust surfaces well enough for the higher thrust loads from the heavy clutch.

When English Racing was building my engine I asked them what my bearing clearances would be. They said, about .0022 inches.
That engine is ~650 whp, 94mm stroke, steel rods, 9 to 1 compression ratio, and rev limit set to 8,000 rpm. 20w-50 engine oil only, per ER.
Then I asked Myles if they would have any objection to me posting what my clearance is in a public forum. He said "That's fine no problem, everybody knows what these numbers are. It's no big secret." So when I read post #3 where the OP says "Unfortunately he would not share the blueprint information with me" it really ticked me off.

I've looked at what bearing clearances have been used by Kiggly, donniekak, and Tim Zimmer, in successful race cars that are much higher power than mine, more extreme, and kept notes with links. Here's what I got, very briefly, as power goes up, at some point you probably need more clearance than my .0022 inches. The Substech article explains that. Kiggly and donniekak have explained that. But enough already!

 

[CrackedDSM]

It's like in street racing or anything else. If someone has a "super secret squirrel" setup, it's because they're insecure about it.


Those with legit fast cars and killer setups tend to just be like "yep here it is, look at it, any questions about it"?


(I know there are exceptions BTW, don't nickel and dime me to death here, you know what I mean)

 

[donniekak]

There is a lot of things that can go wrong here. Clutch adjustment can be a problem, not aligning the thrust bearings well, or even dirt, bad crank or too tight.

Somethings not right if you have 0.001" main clearance.

good chance the main bores were not touched. Generally you'd at least touch up the surface on the caps, and those look untouched.

Doesn't look like the block was cleaned too well either.

IF you want help here you are gonna have to share more details. What crank is in it, pull a bearing shell out and see what they are. Picture of the surface of the main bore. Sounds like you've allready been told to piss up a rope anyway. Was this a fully assembled engine or just a shortblock. Honestly, don't expect any kind of warranty if it was a shortblock. So many places for an inexperienced guy to f*** up there.

If you really want to figure out what happened you need to take it to another real engine shop, and not a competitor of who you had build it.

Also I should add that in general a fancy shop with a record car means probably crap work. Too busy with own shit to do a good job on yours. The "hero" isn't doing the work, it's a $10/hr guy in the back that dgaf building your engine. They gotta get so much work through the door just to make the lease payment, then pay the help and pay for the race car. It takes me 2 days to put a short-block together for my car, measuring/cleaning/checking ect. You think someone with a $10k/mo lease is spending that kinda time on your motor. Good luck.

First thing I looked at. There was no hone done on the mains. In my experience a kiggly girdle and arp’s don’t usually pull the mains to the point they need honed or bored. That being said being told work was done that wasn’t isn’t good.

My first guess is an out of spec eagle crank. Quite possibly a to large journal that’s tapered.

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[97gsxIA]

Thanks for hopping in Donnie. My gut is in total agreement with yours. I have a feeling I'm gonna find an out of spec, possibly tapered crank journal.

 

[jed344]

So I have built some 4g’s in my day, with the 6 bolts arp mains and kiggly girdle we always check the main alignment and more times then not it’s ok. Eagle cranks out of the box for sure need work, last one we used was larger then spec on journals out of the box and 11 grams off balance. I would assume the builder when he assembled would have checked the crank play as to tight clearly is bad. Memory says .003-.007. The bearing clearences we like to shoot for around .002 on mains and littler larger on the rods. That looks like some extreme wear for the miles put on it. Hopefully builder makes it right as even a badly adjusted clutch I would be shocked wore it that fast. Surprised a blueprint sheet was not provided. I always provide that and I know of other builders who always do as well.

 

[97gsxIA]

So I have built some 4g’s in my day, with the 6 bolts arp mains and kiggly girdle we always check the main alignment and more times then not it’s ok. Eagle cranks out of the box for sure need work, last one we used was larger then spec on journals out of the box and 11 grams off balance. I would assume the builder when he assembled would have checked the crank play as to tight clearly is bad. Memory says .003-.007. The bearing clearences we like to shoot for around .002 on mains and littler larger on the rods. That looks like some extreme wear for the miles put on it. Hopefully builder makes it right as even a badly adjusted clutch I would be shocked wore it that fast. Surprised a blueprint sheet was not provided. I always provide that and I know of other builders who always do as well.

Endplay spec in my manual says .002-.007. Which I will check when I reassemble the rotating assembly after I double check and clean everything. I'm not expecting the shop to make it right, that's his prerogative.

The crank has material taken off in equal areas/amounts with their sister counterweight (1/4, 2/3).
So it appears the crank was balanced in some fashion. That's all I can really tell about the crank other than the condition of the journals and thrust measurement Marty suggested.

As far as the mains are concerned, I was told they were torqued down checked for straightness and didn't require honing.
That's as far as that went.

The builder immediately blamed my clutch, which is fine- he can do that if he wants. This isn't my first rodeo. So I don't need a hand to hold, but I am human and I am pissed. Because I know I did my duty.

All I can do is tear it all down, check and clean everything, fix anything wrong and put it back together and check everything again.

I can't blast the builder on this forum so I'll make him uncomfortable at the shootout with my presence. There's nothing to be done.

If you haven't been able to figure out who it is and want to know, DM me. I'm moving on without him after tomorrow.

 

[danl]

If you know who built the engine, like the above post.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Who says you can’t blast him? You have proof he won’t stand by his product and won’t fix his shit, if he’s being an ass and refusing to honor his work, drag his ass all over social media and the forums.

 

[Drewpy Dawg]

Who says you can’t blast him? You have proof he won’t stand by his product and won’t fix his shit, if he’s being an ass and refusing to honor his work, drag his ass all over social media and the forums.

Site rules: "Threads posted involving accusations about classifieds transactions, other members, or shops are not welcome in our forums. We have a Buyer/Seller rating feature for our classifieds in place of forum complaints, as well as a Vendor Reviews section for vendors. If you're sharing your experience with a product in a thread where someone is asking for opinions, that's fine, but starting a thread to serve as a review for a product or vendor is discouraged - use the Vendor Reviews or Product Reviews section for that, not the forums. The forums should not be used as a soap box for complaints."

 

[CrackedDSM]

Alright then, I'll amend it to:


Drag his ass through the vendor reviews or product review sections.

Also, I may post up asking for personal experiences with a certain shop soon. Feel free to give your opinion if it just so happens to be the same shop, since that's not against site rules.