Holset Turbos, PART 2

[sweet97]

Again, so many numbers are being thrown around here in this thread. Let's make sure the people putting down those numbers are posting them in their profile along with links to timeslips and dyno sheets so they'll show up on our 1/4 Mile Times list and Dyno list. Then we can see how they stack up. Those lists make easy reference points for people to see what turbos are doing what. Trying to go through threads like this to pull out numbers is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

If you have one of these turbos, post your timeslip and dyno info in your profile so we can get a better idea of what these turbos are capable of please.

Chris, my car is now in storage until spring. I see you have many green boxes. Perhaps you can help diagnose my "buck" issue. I have the Holset HX-35/40. Buschur stage 3 motor including head with 272's. Well you can read my mods. I have most all of them covered. When I watched the gauges and watched for a "buck" to happen the IDC was 91% on 950cc inj's and the A/F was 11.x:1. Timing was 10* as I have KEYDIVERS extended maps for high boost on pump. Fuel cut has been removed. Plugs are gapped at .022", anything more and it breaks up. I have a MAF-T.
I've been told the following:
Fuel, spark, possibly the hybrid turbo, etc.
Happens in higher gears mostly when I am in a gear a bit longer and boost and rpm's are high.
WSell that's why I still post in this thread and will certainly get some numbers next spring. I have heard of a shop in Buffalo called ....something innovations. Now I need to find that again but would like to find a shoop in the Syracuse, NY area. Thanks, mark

 

[sweet97]

Just an update. I have the JM SMIM on the motor. I found a lower injector seal that was bent over and most likely leaking under boost as there was gas on the intake way near the back. Since the motor had the BUCK with the 750's also I don't believe this was the cause, wish it was. However I found that the #1 plug wire did not fit into the coil pack tower very well, came off easily. That was there with BOTH injectors and could have been a factor. NGK blue wires. The end is bad. Tried replacing it once already. Too bad I can't get 1 wire. May need to buy another set to resolve that for certain. Once the coil pack and TB are installed I will begin addressing the IC piping. I did get the TB rebuilt/refinished. Also had it bored a tad to 2.5" or 63.5mm, part of the rebuild deal. Looks like new-also with O-rings replacing the leaking stock seals. Potential to flow 10% more, not a big deal.
I need a new clutch and think I am going with a Competition Clutch, either their IRONMAN or STRIP clutch, both are 6-pucks/SPRUNG. I have had too much trouble with ACT's. Opinions on which clutch would suit me better, the sintered iron disc or the ceramic disc? Iron lasts longer and engeges smoother, Ceramin is more grabby, holds more but is rougher on the flywheel and PP though it costs less. Cost is not a factor with this decision. Ironman-500HP, Ceramic 600+HP so CC says.
I am also replacing the filter to rail line with -6an fittings and SS line. That will remove the banjo on the top of the filter, the filter may have to go also if I can find an adapter for the line coming from the tank, not sure what the stock fitting is below the filter.
Getting a 30/30 vac/boost gauge today also so I don't have to guess what boost I am running.
Gotta resolve the BUCK issue this spring. I have the plugs gapped at .022" which helped the upper rpm's greatly, no more breaking up there. Maybe will try .020".
Of course I may need to give into DSMlink though I am afraid I am not capable of tuning it and do not have a laptop so it could be expensive. On the other hand I believe I have the mods for a 10.99 sec car!! Potential not yet reached. Perhaps some kind of spark enhancement-MSD dis-2?
Merry Christmas and Happy holidays, Mark

 

[DSM90AWD]

Of course I may need to give into DSMlink though I am afraid I am not capable of tuning it and do not have a laptop so it could be expensive

FYI.. laptops are dirt cheep these days on eBay (233Mhz + 32MB RAM minimum), and DSMLink also works with PDAs. Nice thing is that you have absolute control over tuning (both fuel and timing), and if apprehensive about tuning yourself, any DSM Shop with a Dyno can set you up (or just search DSMLinks' private forums for help)

30psi gauge You're already doing that now on pump. Check out the Stewart Warner 40psi gauges

Good luck and Merry Christmas (Santa sure has been nice to you sofar)

 

[boostdog]

i have a buddy with an 86 mustang with a pinto motor and runs a holset. thing screams! fastest time before upgrading to a bigger holset was a 10.2. tube frame chassis car. it's alot of fun to watch him kill the v8's and is considered an import due to the 4cyl. pretty cool car!

 

[Steve93Talon]

30psi gauge You're already doing that now on pump. Check out the Stewart Warner 40psi gauges

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[sweet97]

TWO REASONS:
1. I want to be able to read vacuum on the SAME gauge and the 30/30 was the one with the most boost gauged.
2. IF THE "BUCK" ISSUE IS NOT RESOLVED I WILL NOT BE RUNNING OVER 30PSI, MAYBE NOT EVEN 25PSI.
Could have been the plug wire to #1 cylinder.
Could have been a fuel volume issue.
Hopefully the new fuel line from the filter to rail will take care of the last 2 cylinders being lean will do it.
Maybe the closer gap of .020" will resolve it.
Perhaps some modification to my EPROM chip could solve the "BUCK", any ideas on a chip mod?
My lower IC piping is small but I doubt that is the problem however it will be brought to 2.5" from the turbo to the IC.
SMIM? Is it possible somehow that my stock 1G intake was to blame?
Should I consider an MSD dis-2?
Again this "BUCK" is rough enough that I would find it hard to believe it is an ignition problem. Just does it once per run but it feels strong enough to damage the motor. I will start my spring tune at 20psi and work my way up.
Perhaps the dreaded DSMlink will be the savior and I will jump on the link bandwagon! Anyhow I sure hope a 35psi gauge is needed, the 60psi is not likely no matter how well the motor is running!!
If anyone out there knows of any pro or casual tuner near Syracuse, NY PLEASE let me know!! I know it's very hard to diagnose things like this on a forum so help me find somebody near here who can TUNE, TUNE, TUNE! mark
PS: I'll try for some pics as I go along.

 

[93AWDTalon1]

the Stewart Warner gauges are 40 psi/ 30 in. Hg

 

[DSM90AWD]

TWO REASONS:
1. I want to be able to read vacuum on the SAME gauge and the 30/30 was the one with the most boost gauged.

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Should I consider an MSD dis-2?

Stock Ignition is more than enough for 500-600WHP.

If anyone out there knows of any pro or casual tuner near Syracuse, NY PLEASE let me know!! I know it's very hard to diagnose things like this on a forum so help me find somebody near here who can TUNE, TUNE, TUNE!

I'll check around and let you know. May just be worth your while to drive down for the Turbotrix shootout at Englishtown, NJ (Spring 06) and get you car setup there

 

[sweet97]

the Stewart Warner gauges are 40 psi/ 30 in. Hg

I think I was in louisville once, Phoenix Process Equiptment, have their fab shop in Indiana.
Now I know of a gauge that I would use. 2 1/16" by any chance? I have to run so could not check it out. How about taking shot at diagnosing my problem? Occurs when I am in higher gears where the motor is in higher boost and for a longer time as it revs more slowly, one time I saw 91% IDC and the A/F was an 11.x:1, then BANG! Like fuel cut but FC was removed from the DSMchip so I should not experience FC. That leaves:
1. Spark
2. Fuel
3. The MAF?
Anything else that comes to mind anyone? See you in an hour or two. mark

 

[DSM90AWD]

Occurs when I am in higher gears where the motor is in higher boost and for a longer time as it revs more slowly, one time I saw 91% IDC and the A/F was an 11.x:1, then BANG! Like fuel cut but FC was removed from the DSMchip so I should not experience FC

Did you have a recent datalog of this issue? What were your max IATs any knock?

 

[sweet97]

I use the Scamnmaster from www.fullthrottlespeed.com
I tune for from 1-5 counts of knock. My extended map in the DSMchip gives 10* of timing advance at WOT and I would say above 6k rpm's. The Scanmaster came with a floppy disc with mmcd software and a wire with telephone ends on it. Does a palm have a port like a phone jack?
I am VERY computer iliterate. I can barely use a cell phone, no joke. I would like to log and be able to go back and check what was happening but don't know how to do so if I had a palm.
So IDC of 91%/A/F on my wideband was an 11.x:1, 10* timing advance with 1-5 counts of knock. Those were the bits of data at the time of the BUCK. Mark

 

[Steve93Talon]

Bad plug wires will cause bucking under load, swap them first and let us know if it's still doing it. You've got to learn how to use a logger, whether it's a Palm or a laptop. If you're able to get onto this forum and make posts, you're able to figure out how to set up a datalogger. It's very simple.

 

[sweet97]

Steve I would very much like to learn to log. I will send you a PM since this is not in the proper forum. I do have an OLD laptop but I do not believe it will work because of it's age.
I am going to be installing my renewed TB very soon, just got a gasket today. That may help light throttle driveability. I have no water running through the TB. Haven't for a few months since I only drive summers.
Mark

 

[bigtim-x]

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this would probably repersent more of what an average dsmer would have on there dsm.except my fmic is kind of small. I have had this engine for three yrs throught 14b,
16g, and now runnig hx35. turbo needs to be rebuilt, it is blowing oil pretty bad. I was smoking out the dyno shop. oil is going in to my fmic. already knew this before dyno. but figured it wouldn't be that bad. dyno pull starts from 2 grand with full throtal. total of five runns last run the lowest. only two runs recorded. dyno machine not working right. 2nd run record this one hp 412.53 ft/ lbs 378.89 boost 23.41, 5th run record this one hp 371.74 ft/ lbs 342.2 boost 25.84. heat soaked on this one pretty bad and I lowered my timming. 1st hp pull know knock.5th pull should have left my timming alone, and just up the boost. first time on dyno. will be diffrent know that I have done it once. It will be easier next time. I have had my car tunned many times on the street. I know the diffrence between 23 lbs and 26-27lbs. I know I could have made about 50 more hp. That is were I had tunned it for the night before dyno. but got nervouse and lowered the boost. that why I got lower numbers. I know I need to work out my rich spots. but who starts pulling from 2000 rpms anyway.gas vp 110


stock 6 bolt 90gsx
gm maft
hks 272s
680cc inj
act 2600
fmic w/piping
type s bov
hx35 w/bullseyehousing
welded shut flap door
2g portaded manfold
turbonetics deltgate 2 dumping back into the exaust
manual boost controller
b&mpressure regulator set to 42
busher 2 1/2 turbo back exh
dsmlink, inivative wide band, gm 3bar map

 

[sweet97]

I could not access your dyno run link, probably mt webTV. I am curious as to what your A/F was as those injectors seem a bit small for that turbo and 272's. What FMIC are you running? Mark

 

[bigtim-x]

fmic is griffin/sparco. my core not including intakes 20 inches long, 10 inches high, 3inches thick. I tried to post a copy of my dyno sheet. but it is really hard to see once it is scaled down on the computer. So I am going to try to explain it as best I can. 3rd gear pull of the chart rich until 4000 rpm. trust me it is rich until about where it get somewhere in the ball park of 6000-7000 rpm. where I would like it to be.probably to rich for what other people would like. but it is were I like it to be. probably around 11- 11.2. It is really hard to explain. I have been running the the hx35 for about 1 1/2 yrs. it has been enternal and now it is external. I feel I could really get alot more out of it. I have felt my car on the street on 23lbs, and on 27lbs. it breaks traction in 2nd gear from just crusing to massing it (awd). the low number you see are with oil going throught the intercooler. fuel pressure was set at 38-42 so it helps out the injectors alot. duty cycle is high but I could go alot leaner to help it out. I feel I could pull another hundered hp out of it and feel I have probably ran it on the street at that. got kind of scared taking it to the dyno for the first time. so I back off some.

 

[sweet97]

That is on race right? Yeah, that's rich, but where I run on pump. I deceided to tune mine for pump since that is what I will mostly run. My Spearco is a bottom to top flow unit, the 2-221, 18.5"x6"x3.5" and flows 1080CFM at 1.5psi drop. I installed a sensor in the TB elbow and my inlet air is around 100* on hot days so not too bad. I do have a Cold Air Intake with my K&N sitting where the stock sidemount was. I have had trouble with a BUCK at 25psi, high revs, hoigh gears and I believe it is spark related as I need to run my plug gap at .022" or it breaks up. I bought a MSD DIS-2 but will try a spare coil I have here first, maybe buy a new coil since mine is 15 years old! Also doing my IC piping in 2.5" aluminum as my lowwer piping is 1' of 2" and the rest 2.25" to the IC's 2.5" inlet. Since I added a JM FAB SMIM this winter during storage I am changing the upper piping also and it will be more direct, aluminum also. I need to get my TIAL BOV TIG welded to it and I hope to have the motor started this month. I have the HX-35/40. Best time with the Scanmaster plugged into the diagnostic port was an 11.80 with a friend in the car for a total weight of 3500lbs. 117 mph. I feel the car could do a 10.9999999 and hope to do so this year. I like the holset mucho and the Bullseye turbine's are boss IMHO. Good luck with yours and keep us posted. OH, I have 950cc inj's and have had them at 91% IDC with my base also at 42 psi. I may need to raise the base as i understand FIC inj's are rated at 49psi. mark

 

[DSM90AWD]

fuel pressure was set at 38-42 so it helps out the injectors alot. duty cycle is high but I could go alot leaner to help it out

What fuel pump are you running? I noticed the B&M FPR was listed so suspect 190?
Congrats on the Dyno#s. I see you've found out also that small FMICs are no good for dynos. Then again races are not won on Dynos

 

[bigtim-x]

no I run a 255 walbro fuel pump. alot of the dsmlink caculations assumes 42 base full pressure. as for the bucking that you are having. I get bucking to at about 60% throtle.
in 4th gear letting the rpms go up from 5000 it starts to buck. but never at full throtle.
If I remeber correctly when I soften the bov. It didn't buck. I can't really remeber. yah my car runs much stronger at night and in cooler weather increasing fmic production. also I have ran this turbo with afc, gm mass translator, and stage three dsm chip. with my setup I can get away with 22lbs on 91 octane. If I had bigger injectors I could probably do more. 1g dsmlink comes with 1990 timing maps. so you have to retard it alot. 2g maps are much better.

 

[coltboostin]

no I run a 255 walbro fuel pump. alot of the dsmlink caculations assumes 42 base full pressure. as for the bucking that you are having. I get bucking to at about 60% throtle.
in 4th gear letting the rpms go up from 5000 it starts to buck. but never at full throtle.
If I remeber correctly when I soften the bov. It didn't buck. I can't really remeber. yah my car runs much stronger at night and in cooler weather increasing fmic production. also I have ran this turbo with afc, gm mass translator, and stage three dsm chip. with my setup I can get away with 22lbs on 91 octane. If I had bigger injectors I could probably do more. 1g dsmlink comes with 1990 timing maps. so you have to retard it alot. 2g maps are much better.

Compressor Surge?

 

[CoopeRS-T]

Just an update for a couple of questions people have asked that i have not seen answered... I've been reading these two threads for the better part of the last two hours.

i have several different holset turbos in my garage, so i went through and took measurments off of the exhaust turbine for each of them for comparisons.

The turbos i have measured are:
H1C
HX35
HY35 (early Hy35 model (which is off the automatic trans fyi), it has a v-band clamp, but does not have elbow or sensor on the compressor housing like the later models have)

All three had the same measurements on the turbine wheel. From what i can tell there is quite a few different variations of these turbos, so dont think that i'm saying all of them will work, i'm just saying the ones i have look to be the same, and should work (with the exception of the HY's vband style housing).

I'm going to pick up a bullseye housing soon, and confirm that the bullseye housing works on the h1c, i dont see why it wouldnt, i'm almost sure it would bolt directly on. I'm intrested in seeing if the HY35 could be modded cheaply (machined, or even rebuilt) to take the bullseye housing, but it dosent look to promosing right now. It may be something i play with when i get the bullseye turbine housing. The hy35 seems to be a lot less expensive than the HX's and equally available.

Just FYI, i contacted Bullseye and asked about their plans to produce the turbine housing for the HY35, this is their response (just for update purposes)

we only had 5 people sign up,
we need more like 25-50 to make it worth while. I'm sure later in the year
as the HY's become more available we will have the housing so check back
with us in 6-9 months.

 

[Morphius]

Just FYI, i contacted Bullseye and asked about their plans to produce the turbine housing for the HY35, this is their response (just for update purposes)

I wouldn't expect one anytime soon. I contacted him more than a year ago about opening up their product line and machineing their housing to accept the V-Band HY. I even shipped them one of my HY's I have so they could take measurements and do it. I was to receive the first prototype to run for testing. I know it's not that difficult as they already machine the housing for a vband for the Mitsubishi setup. There's plenty of meat there. It's change in CNC code.

In the end, I was shipped back the turbo and told the same thing you were. I had even signed up to purchase 2 housings. So, likely 2 of those '5' are me.

Don't take this wrong, Dave and Bullseye are a good bunch of guys. I just seriously wonder why they don't pursue this. I can only hope it's soon.

 

[ceedawg]

Anyone know who this guy is using an HX-50?Very nice! I didnt even know an HX-50 existed.

Kambiz Khoshrazm - Car-EVO


ET 1/4 mile-10.522

1/4 mile mph-130.50

1/8th time- 6.810

1/8th mph- 106.56

60ft -1.497

Turbo- Holset HX50

Shops-No Garage Phantom, Magnus, Wiseunits, Raidopower, NRB


from this link:http://www.dsmtimes.org/times.php?Header_Type=evo&Page=1

 

[96whgsx]

Does anybody know where a good place to find these HX35 or 40 are? Also, who sells the hybrid 35/40? I've read through both forums but I can't seem to find anyplace other than bullseye that carries them. I've tried ebay, nothing there really.

Also, is there a turbine housing for the HY35 from bullseye yet?

 

[coltboostin]

Anyone know who this guy is using an HX-50?Very nice! I didnt even know an HX-50 existed.

Kambiz Khoshrazm - Car-EVO


ET 1/4 mile-10.522

1/4 mile mph-130.50

1/8th time- 6.810

1/8th mph- 106.56

60ft -1.497

Turbo- Holset HX50

Shops-No Garage Phantom, Magnus, Wiseunits, Raidopower, NRB


from this link:http://www.dsmtimes.org/times.php?Header_Type=evo&Page=1

1.49? Either a timing error, or he's on slicks.


There is an HX-55 HX60......ect