Holset Turbos, PART 2

[hose101772]

Wow, welded up and drilled the adapter hole on the oil feed line to .070" today. Huge difference, wouldn't believe it had I only read it. I knew it needed a lot less oil, it would smoke past 5k, but just the difference in spool and response was very nice. Starts making boost at 3k and makes 25psi at 3500.

Trapped over 115 with a halfthrottle rollout on pump gas at 24psi tonight. This thing is starting to rock.


225/50 falkens repeatedly lit up off the studderbox until the intercooler coupler finally pulled off. Never thought I'd be having traction problems on pump gas.

 

[sweet97]

Wow, welded up and drilled the adapter hole on the oil feed line to .070" today. Huge difference, wouldn't believe it had I only read it. I knew it needed a lot less oil, it would smoke past 5k, but just the difference in spool and response was very nice. Starts making boost at 3k and makes 25psi at 3500.

Trapped over 115 with a halfthrottle rollout on pump gas at 24psi tonight. This thing is starting to rock.


225/50 falkens repeatedly lit up off the studderbox until the intercooler coupler finally pulled off. Never thought I'd be having traction problems on pump gas.

Sent a PM but for everyone's benefit are you saying restricting the oil pressure to the turbo significantly increased spool? If so what was the turbo spooling at before the restrictor? What is your timing advance under WOT at higher rpm's? Thanks!! Mark
PS: Did the turbo always smoke or after how many miles did it have when it started? Mine has about 5k but I am leary about restricting the oil when the size of the restrictor is not known to be an exact size.

 

[aero_sallee]

Wow, welded up and drilled the adapter hole on the oil feed line to .070" today. Huge difference, wouldn't believe it had I only read it. I knew it needed a lot less oil, it would smoke past 5k, but just the difference in spool and response was very nice. Starts making boost at 3k and makes 25psi at 3500.

Trapped over 115 with a halfthrottle rollout on pump gas at 24psi tonight. This thing is starting to rock.


225/50 falkens repeatedly lit up off the studderbox until the intercooler coupler finally pulled off. Never thought I'd be having traction problems on pump gas.

Where are you feeding oil from? Do you still have balance shafts?

 

[sweet97]

Where are you feeding oil from? Do you still have balance shafts?

His vehicle description says the balance shafts are removed and I would think anyone with a Bullseye turbine is running from the filter housing, at least I am since my turbo is only oil cooled I wanted fresh and cool as possible oil so I added the '90 filter housing and a big cooler. I have to check my AGP line as I almost think the 45* fittings I bought to attach the line may be smaller than the -4an line. I would love quicker spool and to add life to the turbo but how do we gauge the amount of oil pressure to the turbo and be sure it is enough? Mark
PS: Starts to spool at 3000 rpm's and hits 25psi 500 rpm's later, quite a rush I would think!! I haven't checked my spool this season but last year I had 20psi around 4300rpm's I seem to remember. HX-35/40 so a bit more weight to turn.

 

[hose101772]

Car smoked past 5k. That was the real reason I restricted the oil supply just noticed it spooled/responded noticably better afterwards. It felt better than the b16g first time I ran the holset but just never really impressed me reguardless of tuning until I did the restrictor install.

Not that the spool rpm change was huge either, maybe a few hundred, but it sure acts more responsive once it gets to boosting. As in, no more high 3ks for 20+ psi.

Now, mine had way to much oil going through it so dont everyone go expecting miracles with oil supply changes. Probably a 7 mil hole that I welded closed and drilled to .078", which still may be to much. Anyone here know?


Yes oiling from filter housing. One thing though, this is a 2.4 with right at 9/1. Its going to spool things up a little quicker than a 2.0.

What is your timing advance under WOT at higher rpm's?

Timing? right below where it knocks. It likes 11-12 degrees @ sub4k them climbing to maybe 16 or so @6k and quite a bit more beyond that, strokers like more advance. The 16g took alot more advance up top but it was at the end of its flow potential. The airflow would flatline past 4k on the 16g and would fall out of the high load row to the higher timing figures.



Not really sure what parts I have. The turbine is from an hx30, it looked exactly the same as the damaged one on the 35 so I swapped them out. It spun freely so I went with it. Works nice, I would tell anyone wanting something bigger than a 16g to look at the holsets. Easy spooler, nice topend plus beefy internals.

I cannot wait to get some race fuel in it and crank the boost to.. well what ever it will go to.

 

[sweet97]

Did it smoke from day one or after how many miles did it start? I have a pre-filter from GREperformance that may be restricting my oil flow enough as I have had no smoking issues. I need to try a couple more runs with 29psi but I have found that I go faster with less boost and more timing so far. I hit 122mph at 3500# ride-had a friend in the car. Best alone has been the 119 or maybe a 121. This is using the Scanmaster as a guide. If coming out of the hole at a lower (and much less spinning) launch rpm gives me a better time or more Mph I might stay at 29 but otherwise I will try more timing with say 24psi. I need to rev to 8500 before shifting which is not possible with my current keydiver chip as the rev limiter is set for 8500. I have a chip with less timing with a rev limit of 9000 but not enough timing advance.
If anyone wants more that a 20G, 50 trim, 60-1 without going full Garret I would recommend the Holset! The turbine does compromise some as any hybrid to fit the stock Mitsu flange would. Now that I know that would be the case with most any hybrid I am pleased with the Bullseye/Holset. Some pro tuning with "link" would probably let me reach my goal of 11.25 @ 125+mph. At least I believe that is the potential. Spoke to a DSM'er with an SCM61 and a Mitsu turbine with a .52a/r and he believes he is lacking a lot of power with the turbine and is going full Garret. made 500on the dyno but said he did not make much power above 22psi as he tried up to 26/27 psi due to his restrictive turbine. I'm still a Bullseye fan as it spools crazy mad making torque steer power after 5000 rpm's for me.
Checked out www.dsmtimes.org and saw a borg-warner at the top of the list. Doesn't Bullseye offer a B-W compressor? Holset HX-50 was right up there too. Mark

 

[aero_sallee]

His vehicle description says the balance shafts are removed and I would think anyone with a Bullseye turbine is running from the filter housing, at least I am since my turbo is only oil cooled I wanted fresh and cool as possible oil so I added the '90 filter housing and a big cooler.

I'm running it off the head, with no restrictor just worked out a little simpler for me. I can't remember what size AN line that I used. So far about 8k on it and no signs of oil loss or smoking. Mine is also only oil cooled. Hope to pick up a 90 oil cooler setup also.

 

[sweet97]

I'm running it off the head, with no restrictor just worked out a little simpler for me. I can't remember what size AN line that I used. So far about 8k on it and no signs of oil loss or smoking. Mine is also only oil cooled. Hope to pick up a 90 oil cooler setup also.

Pressure from the head would not require a restrictor as it's not nearly as high as off the filter houding. You will be fine. Perhaps some type of filter would be a good addition as that oil has been through the galleys and is not as clean as the filter housing oil. www.greperformance.com sells filters. I have one on my line. Mark

 

[hose101772]

If you'll look inside the factory oil line from the head it's got a restrictor built in.

 

[1029TSG]

I cant believe the size of this thread. If you're wondering where we are, click here http://www.bullseyepower.com/forums/

 

[joeracer321]

FYI guys and gals, I have the HX-40 on the shop Evo finally and it runs GREAT!!! I just got it up and running today so data will follow shortly behind. I test drove it and I was very impressed on the response and power this turbo puts out on NO tune! I was reaching 24 PSI on pump gas at 4200 RPMS and this is on an untuned car with a 3" intake. This turbo works really MUCH better with a 4" intake but I didnt have any 4" mandrel bends in the shop to make one this week so I figured it would be worth testing the 3" then the 4" to show the gains of using the 4" pipe. I know spool is something everyone likes to talk about so I will make my prediction that tuned with the 4" pipe I should see full boost by 3700 but no later than 4k. So for a turbo that flows 75 lbs./min it spools like crazy, it definately blows the 35r out of the water in all categories: Bang for the buck, Spool and Flow capability.

 

[sweet97]

Josh, how about listing the specs/mods of the EVO as your DSM had a 2.3 stroker and what looked like a Shearer tubular header along with some other good mods. Is this motor a 2.0 or 2.3/2.4? Intake?
Spool was never an issue for me as with a stutter launch I start out at 10psi. My only issue is how much does the turbine restrict power. I know that it is a compromise so chill with the type of comments I got the last time I questioned the Bullseye turbine. I'm comfortable with the compromise as any hybrid to fit a Mitsu flange is gong to be compromised. I have a chip coming that will log 4X Karman so I will find the boost level where the airflow/power is diminished for the boost increase. I will start around 24psi and increase each 3rd gear pull by 2 psi and log the airflow. Then I will back the boost off by 2 psi and tune timing from there. The chip will have 11:1 afr maps. This may end up being a race tune if the boost is a fair amount higher than the 30psi I am running now. I will have 100 octane unleaded in the tank for the test. Dual and quad phase chips will be offered so from a knob in the cabin I will ba able to adjust the knob for a choice of 4 different tunes on 1 chip! I will go DSMlink sometime when it is in my budget.
I exchanged emails with a fellow that has an SCM61 with a Mitsu turbine housing with a .52 a/r and he said at boost levels over 22psi he got diminished returns so he was going full Garrett T4. He did dyno 500whp with the small turbine housing though which sounds like enough for me!
Will you be able to provide dyno or track times with the EVO? thanks, Mark

 

[joeracer321]

Josh, how about listing the specs/mods of the EVO as your DSM had a 2.3 stroker and what looked like a Shearer tubular header along with some other good mods. Is this motor a 2.0 or 2.3/2.4? Intake?
Spool was never an issue for me as with a stutter launch I start out at 10psi. My only issue is how much does the turbine restrict power. I know that it is a compromise so chill with the type of comments I got the last time I questioned the Bullseye turbine. I'm comfortable with the compromise as any hybrid to fit a Mitsu flange is gong to be compromised. I have a chip coming that will log 4X Karman so I will find the boost level where the airflow/power is diminished for the boost increase. I will start around 24psi and increase each 3rd gear pull by 2 psi and log the airflow. Then I will back the boost off by 2 psi and tune timing from there. The chip will have 11:1 afr maps. This may end up being a race tune if the boost is a fair amount higher than the 30psi I am running now. I will have 100 octane unleaded in the tank for the test. Dual and quad phase chips will be offered so from a knob in the cabin I will ba able to adjust the knob for a choice of 4 different tunes on 1 chip! I will go DSMlink sometime when it is in my budget.
I exchanged emails with a fellow that has an SCM61 with a Mitsu turbine housing with a .52 a/r and he said at boost levels over 22psi he got diminished returns so he was going full Garrett T4. He did dyno 500whp with the small turbine housing though which sounds like enough for me!
Will you be able to provide dyno or track times with the EVO? thanks, Mark

I believe the Evo is going to be a good reference for an average person with a good turbo set up. The motor is stock exept for cams. Other than that it has a Walbro 255 pump, HKS 280 cams, FIC 880 cc injectors, ECU+ engine management, GRE Performance FMIC, Samco IC hose kit, Custom GRE exhaust Manifold (prototype), Bullseye Power Pro HX-40, Injen 3" Turbo Back exhaust, AEM Intake, and an HKS DLI-II ignition system.

Timeslips will come later, but dyno results should be available by next weekend.

 

[sweet97]

I will be shortly testing the point at which the HX-35/40 I have flows the most air. I will start with the boost low, around 22-24psi and raise each 3rd gear pull by 2psi and log the airflow. When I reach the point where 2psi does not offer the same gains as down lower or even diminished returns for the additional boost I will back the boost by 2psi and call that the sweet spot for my turbo. I will post the results here. Then I will tune around that amount of boost and also post the fuel required to run that amount of boost. For some reason the motor seems to like 100 unleaded as much as 110 leaded. I am not sure as I did not test any airflow with the 110 just times but the 100 seems to take the same amount of AFR's. Mark

 

[sweet97]

Has anyone actually used a Holset turbine housing? If so how did you get it bolted to a DSM manifold(or what did you use) and how about the downpipe. My chip is on the way which will tell where the bullseye turbne with my set-up(HX-35/40) stops flowing efficiently. I will be able to read the airflow in 4 X Karman. Just interestd in what a larger turbine might do for flow and spool time. Thanks, mark

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

Has anyone actually used a Holset turbine housing? If so how did you get it bolted to a DSM manifold(or what did you use) and how about the downpipe. My chip is on the way which will tell where the bullseye turbne with my set-up(HX-35/40) stops flowing efficiently. I will be able to read the airflow in 4 X Karman. Just interestd in what a larger turbine might do for flow and spool time. Thanks, mark

Mark, using a 2G/EVO manifold, you will need a 1" or more spacer to clear the 9cm HY35 housing.

I'm tempted to get the Turbonetics T3 manifold, a 1/2" spacer, and hope an HY35 clears the block, but for the price, it's kind of not worth it. It'd be easier to go bolt-on PTE or the like.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

Mark,

the problem with your HX35/40 is that it will not accept a 9CM HY housing, since those housings use v-band clamps instead of bolts to hold the center section to the exhaust housing. You would need to either find another (12CM or 18CM) housing that will bolt on, and I can't imagine using a housing that big on a 2.0.

I *may* be picking up an HY35/9CM soon, and will use my T3 adapter plate on my EVOIII manifold, as well as making/buying a 1/2" spacer plate and longer studs in order for this to work correctly in my application.

However, I am still undecided, since I have a feeling that I will run into front motor mount problems, and from what I've collected, the outlet on the 9CM is 4", and I don't feel like making another exhaust.

-------------

After reading all of that again, I think I've just convinced myself that it's not worth it. A Holset may be nice, but I do not want to run the small Bullseye housing, so it looks like I'll have to look for a turbo elsewhere.



Take care,

Jesse





EDIT : Mark, what happened to your post? Now no one is going to know what in the hell I'm rambling on about

 

[sweet97]

Mark,

the problem with your HX35/40 is that it will not accept a 9CM HY housing, since those housings use v-band clamps instead of bolts to hold the center section to the exhaust housing. You would need to either find another (12CM or 18CM) housing that will bolt on, and I can't imagine using a housing that big on a 2.0.

I *may* be picking up an HY35/9CM soon, and will use my T3 adapter plate on my EVOIII manifold, as well as making/buying a 1/2" spacer plate and longer studs in order for this to work correctly in my application.

However, I am still undecided, since I have a feeling that I will run into front motor mount problems, and from what I've collected, the outlet on the 9CM is 4", and I don't feel like making another exhaust.

-------------

After reading all of that again, I think I've just convinced myself that it's not worth it. A Holset may be nice, but I do not want to run the small Bullseye housing, so it looks like I'll have to look for a turbo elsewhere.



Take care,

Jesse





EDIT : Mark, what happened to your post? Now no one is going to know what in the hell I'm rambling on about

Jesse I deleted the post when I realized there is NO room for a larger turbine, externally dimensiones anyways. I appreciate the info you presented. I will have to make the best of the Bullseye turbine but the HX-35/40 may have been a poor design and the straight 40 may flow well enough in the bullseye turbine housing. Mark

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

I believe that there is more room than you think. People squeeze much larger turbine housings in (than the Bullseye,) but the Holset housing is simply not worth the hassle IMO.

Just my .02

 

[sweet97]

If spacers are needed to move the exhaust manifold out then you are right, too much hassle. I've had the EVO3, 50 trim, 60-1 and now the Holset. I've had enough and running 120mph 1/4's is fine. I built the car as an interstate cruiser but my health has kept me from driving more than 100 miles in over 5 years. Still would like the full pontential of the compressor. We'll see what joeracer321 gets for dyno power and at what boost level and fuel. As I said the larger 40 turbine wheel may make the Holset/bullseye combo well worth it! mark

 

[sweet97]

Got some airflow numbers today as I got my new DSMchip yesterday. Had some trouble with my Forge UNOS MBC but by using 2 different actuators I was able to test at 3 amounts of boost. Just to refresh I have an HX-35/40 and all of the mods I could have but better tuning tools.
23/24psi=3000Hz
27psi=3200Hz
30psi=3400Hz
Seems fairly consistant, 200Hz for each 3 extra psi of boost. I do not know a certain formula for converting Hz to lbs/min but once read that each 32Hz was = to .51 lbs./min. If that is in the ball park then each 3 psi netted me 3lbs/min and each lb/min=10.x HP.
Another formula says that lbs/min of air divided by .069=CFM so each 3psi = 43CFM This seems quite low!?
Since the increases were consistant I would say I still have power to be made with more boost but I am not sure I can add boost. I will crank the Forge UNOS MBC and see if it changes the boost. It is posible I have a boost leak if it does not increase the boost or the MBC is faulty, correct? I can test for a leak this weekend when it's raining as I want to make the most of driving time right now.
Well take this as you like. I am a bit more pleased with the Bullseye turbine though I believe a larger turbine would flow more and allow the compressor make some more power. Too bad bullseye does not have a larger turbine cast. Did anyone see the new Borg-Warner "S" series turbo's? They have one with a 132mm inducer! That's about a 5" inlet and with the size of the bullseye turbine and I'm not completely happy with it!! 5" capable of 1600HP.Many other sizes with one flowing 100lbs/min, a 33% increase than what is claimed for the HX-40! Mark

 

[90AWDTalon]

I do not know a certain formula for converting Hz to lbs/min but once read that each 32Hz was = to .51 lbs./min. If that is in the ball park then each 3 psi netted me 3lbs/min and each lb/min=10.x HP.

As far as I know there is no formula to convert from hz to lb/min. I think I remember you saying you were using scan tool, if you can log grams per rev with that then you can calculate lb/min.

I looked at an old log of mine. 3208 hz @ 5937 rpm's I was flowing 3.5 g/rev which calculates to 45.92 lb/min.

I will crank the Forge UNOS MBC and see if it changes the boost. It is posible I have a boost leak if it does not increase the boost or the MBC is faulty, correct? \

What is the base pressure of your actuator? There is a limit to how far you can increase the boost over the base setting with an MBC.

 

[sweet97]

Thanks for the info, both about the lbs./min when you had nearly 46 lbs/min of airflow and the MBC info. The one actuator runs 30psi by itself without an MBC at all so I suppose the MBC will not affect that one. The actual actuator that came with the Holset can go as low as 24psi so the MBC may work with that actuator or maybe not. I may give that one a chance again.
Thanks again, Mark

 

[90AWDTalon]

Thanks for the info, both about the lbs./min when you had nearly 46 lbs/min of airflow and the MBC info. The one actuator runs 30psi by itself without an MBC at all so I suppose the MBC will not affect that one. The actual actuator that came with the Holset can go as low as 24psi so the MBC may work with that actuator or maybe not. I may give that one a chance again.
Thanks again, Mark

Both those are plenty high enough to not be an issue with the mbc. You should be able really crank the boost up. I don't know what the exact amount an mbc can add, but when I had my evoIII 16g using the actuator off my 14b, 10psi I think, I was able to raise the boost to 25psi. It wouldn't go any higher. So with that actuator and mbc combo 15psi above the setting of the actuator was max. With the base setting 's of your actuator's I would think that you could run alot more than you currently are.

 

[sweet97]

So you think the MBC should work with these actuators? The Forge UNOS has 90 different positions. I cranked it to 75 on the plus side and did not reralize a boost gain with the actuator that runs 30psi minimum. I will crank it the rest of the way and see what it does.
The actual actator that came with the turbo will set lower and hold and that is the one that I think may respond to the MBC. May try that also. i'll post the results. The good thing is that the Bullseye turbine is still flowing at a constant rate even at 30psi. I hope to get it to 35psi and see what it does, again tomorrow! Mark