Holset Turbos, PART 2

[IPT]

Did anyone see the new Borg-Warner "S" series turbo's? They have one with a 132mm inducer! That's about a 5" inlet and with the size of the bullseye turbine and I'm not completely happy with it!! 5" capable of 1600HP.Many other sizes with one flowing 100lbs/min, a 33% increase than what is claimed for the HX-40! Mark

You must be looking at the S510. Those things are HUGE!! The compressor cover is almost 12" in diameter. They will not be in a bolt on housing considering the turbine wheel has an OD of 4.32"

 

[sweet97]

I got an interesting email from Cory Heldhege from Holset today. I was asking about a possible turbine housing that might fit what I have, the HX-35/40. We talked about that and a couple of the differences of Holsets and there are many!
I asked about the HX-40 compressor flowing 70lbs/min capabilities and he said NO WAY! He stated there were many 40 wheels available and the largest HX-40 would flow 60lbs/min at best. I believe my 40 compressor wheel has a 58mm wheel and there are 60mm's and even larger I believe.
Just wanted the HX-40 owners to know that 70lbs/min is not going to happen but who actually gets the absolute max from their turbo anyways. That would mean that getting 60lbs/min would be a difficult task possibly requiring every mod and tuning trick under the sun! I'll be trying to get my boost over 30psi today and see if it flows more as the changes from 24-27-30 did.
OH> I asked Cory about the oil pressure issue to see what is the correct amount of pressure Holset actually advises. Mark
ADDITION ON OIL PRESSURE: Corey said 10psi at idle, 40psi cruising and max of 60psi. My line has restrictions at each end with the couplers that attach the line to the turbo center section and to the oil filter housing and I have seen absolutly no signs of smoking.
I am waiting for a replacement filter element for the pre-filter I bought from joeracer321(Joshua Goshman) who owns GREperformance. When I get that filter element I should have the oil feed pressure in spec. mark

 

[Maglin]

Man I've been out of the loop here. Glad to see you got your car running pretty good Sweet97. I'm presonlly thinking of ditching the HX-35 and running either a Full Holset H1E (once I replace the TH that I threw away) or just say F..it and pick me up a HX50-55 turbo.

No matter what I'm told I know my backpressure from the small Bullseye Mitsu/Th is causing a big loss on the top end.. (6500 RPM+) If their T4 TH's are larger I would consider getting one. I've seen a full HX-35 install on a omni and it spolled around sub 4K RPMs.

I moved to Vegas and didn't get a chance to turn my car. Poped the el'chepo HG and the car has been sitting for the past 4 months. Tax sesion is here so I'm picking up a buch of goodies.

Titan ICS Copper Headgasket
FPCam 3x's
DNP T4 manifold w/44mm Tial WG
Set of Weisco pistons either 8.5:1 or 9:1 (undecided as of yet. Leaning toward 8.5:1)

Their is some other stuff as well. I had to much oil pressure on my Holset and it blows oil out the turbine. 4 AN line no restricter off the oil filter housing. I'm thinking of actually Hooking up a oill pressure regulater and kept it at the Holset req. 45PSI. I'm positive my poor turbo is seeing upwards of 65+ PSI as my B/S are removed and I have the new upgraded mitsu oil pump.

I'm currently looking for a HX50 but am not having to much luck finding one on the cheap. The new S300 turbo's looks very very sexy. I'm going to give the HX-35 some more time on the car while I break in the new motor. If it goes to crap I should have my H1E TH to put on my Full T4 and see how much a differance that makes.

If Bullseye would make a .80ish AR TH for the 35/40 I would definitly go with them and pick up a HX40 as I can find them pretty cheap.

 

[sweet97]

I have been told/read thqat the Bullseye turbine chokes off from 50 to 80HP on larger turbo's like the Holsets/and 60-1's which flow about the same. I like the Holset and the Bullseye both for their toughness. It is too bad Bullseye did not make another turbine in their line as the same turbine cannot work well on a 16G as some guys have done and something like a Holset HX-40. Actually Holset warned me about trying to run 35psi to check the airflow. He told me to keep my eye on my IAT's and I do have a sensor in the TB elbow so I can monitor the intake temps. I have saved the emails if anyone is interested I can forward them to your email and you can send your email address to [email protected] I cannot post them here and don't know if that is even possible/computer iliterate. Man how many times have I written that!
I am staying with my HX-35/40 for a couple of reasons. I've spent a lot on turbo's and don't know what I would buy! Catch you guys a bit later tonight if any of you are like me and staying home on a friday night!!! Mark

 

[blue1]

The question of physical size between the bullseye housing and the 12cm holset, i think the holset is a bit more compact in its overall size, difference in weight i am not sure but the holset has a few reasonble size bosses that could be removed easily that are not required.
Oil pressure should be kept to approx 60 psi on high RPM because of the same issues is does have with engine bearings (oil wedge) which is a major contributor to spun bearings. because most turbo's dont run a positive oil seal the high oil pressures does pass the piston ring seal easily and put oil in the inlet and the turbine housing.
Ball bearing turbos are especially prone to failure due to high oil pressures it causes the bearings to skids rather than roll, the OEM oil line does use a restrictor for this purpose and i think it would be an idea to stick with this size because of the amount of development DSM has put into working out this size. And if you have the balance shaft mod done look into moding the oil bypass in the pump.
Taking oil from the rear of the head i dont see issue with the cleanliness of the oil as after engine break in the amount of particles going through the system should have dissapeared if oils and filters are changed at a regular times.
I am using a tubular manifold and looking at how to partition the collector to get the best results and spool up from the 12 cm holset housing to get opposite cylinders firing in the way the turbine housing benefit from the exhaust pulses. (split pulse)
I have followed this thread from day one and have found it to be what these forums are good for Brilliant information! i cant afford to swap turbo's just to see the differences of what they do ($240,000 divorce settlement saw to that) so i really rely on you guys for info, which in 90% of cases is brilliant!
My engine is still on the stand but is really close now:
2.4/1Ghead, arp everything, line honed block, balanced, polished shotpeened crank, superflow ported head, 1mm o/s valves, crower springs and tit' retainers, Ferrea locks, 264/272 cams, ajt' gears, HX35 with 12cm housing, cometic head gasket, 8.5.1 wiseco's, eagle rods, ACL p series bearings, Walbro 300LPH pump, Malpassi afpr, bosch 1600 inj's, Wolfems stand alone ECU, Water to Air intercooler, water/meth inj' 75mm tb, 3" intercooler plumbing, 4
" cold air intake, Tubular stainless exhaust, 42mm external wastegate, 3 bar map sensor, there is a bit more but i will leave it at that.
Just for aguement sake i have had the cams made for solid lifters which i am putting together at the moment, i can see massive gains with these so i will give it ago!! I have unlimited access to a dyno and to a full engine workshop, plans are to have this on the dyno end of april, its just the inlet that i am building is taking time to get it right on the flow bench.
Aims: all power in by 6500 to 6850rpm not even going to guess on the HP but i will post as the dyno spits it out.
Keep up the good info!

 

[sweet97]

Does this 12^cm turbine bolt to the center section like my hybrid: 3 hold down tabs, each with 2 bolts? You believe it will clear the balance shaft housing on that side of the block? How about a part # of this turbine you are going to try.
I am not sure that I got a part # from my contact with Holset. A 9^cm housing would be great but that is for the V-band turbines! How about a pic or two?, Thanks, Mark
PS: Corey from Holset gave me this part #. #3539724 is the wheel(turbine) that the 12^CM2 would fit. I don't know if this would help find a housing at the local Diesel turbo shop find the housing or not! Mark

 

[blue1]

My holset has two plates and is held in by just four bolts, the 9cm housing was used on the autos, the HY35 is the vband type so i cant see why you wouldn't just use the copmplete turbo. all the guts is the same just the way they attach the turbine housing.

 

[sweet97]

So you have 2 "ADAPTER" plates to mount the Holset to the manifold and to the downpipe or is the downpipe another fabrication? One reason I don't use the HY-35 is because I already have an HX-35/40. There is a 12^cm2 turbine that would bolt to the Holset I have but that could be a bit large, maybe not. How does yours run? Get it from a yard? From what Vehicle/year? Thanks, Mark
PS: Can you get pics?

 

[blue1]

My tubular manifold is T3 flanged

 

[sweet97]

Is the Holset turbine T3 flanged? If not did you have to fab an adapter plate to bolt the turbine onto the manifold? Seems like that would create alignment problems? Mark

 

[blue1]

yes the 12cm is but i think the 18 cm is T4, i still have to make up an extention for the flange (a short curved one) to get the turbo closer into the block. RWD's have a few mods required as the turbo is facing the other way and the turbine snail shape puts the turbo out further.

 

[sweet97]

Thanks Paul, that's the first firm info I have gotten on the Holset turbine housing. Too bad the 9^cm2 turbine is a V-band clamp as that would be a perfect size. If looking for a Holset with the 9^cm2 turbine from a yard or eBay I need to find out what exactly I would be looking for. I believe automatics had the 9^cm2 turbine? Then here in the states what years? Well it's a start or I could just go with something else besides the holset since they do not flow the air that has been advertised which for an HX-40 I have seen 70-75lbs/min when holset sales/engineer said the HX-40 came with many sized inducer sizes and the largest compressor flowed around 60lbs/min.
In my case though, to be fair, I have the HX-35/40 of which Dave Hall said there were about a dozen or less out there so there is not much info on them. Steve's friend with the straight HX-40 was putting down times and speeds with a tired tranny and stock internals as I do with a built motor and TRE tranny. To be continued....

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

Mark,

the 9cm housing is also T3-flanged, just to clarify.

AMS and Hahn both make an adapter plate to bolt it onto the stock manifold, but this drops the turbo roughly ~1/2", so depending on your application, you may have to modify/grind down some of the front motor mount. My friend with an SC61 (T04E cover) had to grind his mount down slightly to clear using the adapter.

The HY35 came on automatic 2002 Dodge trucks for sure. I'm not sure of the other years.

Take care,

 

[PSI TSI]

The 18cm housing is also a t3 flange. It is big and hits the block. I had to space out the manifold 1/2 in and make a specaial wedge shaped mitsu to t3 adapter plate.
From the pics I have seen of the 12cm housing I would think they would clear without the wedge adapter. Asfar as hitting the front mount I have a 2g and it does'nt hit. Its damn close to it though. When doing something like this you have to have the "It has to fit mantality".

Like I told you Mark Ill get some pics of my set up asoon as I get ahold of a camera.
Just so you know I started a dsm holset group on yahoo last spring when I first started this project. I aslo posted my complete setup in the first holset thread if you want to go back and look through all of it. I know its a long read. Here is the link to the group. There is'nt much there. I like to spend my free time driving my baby so I didnt dop much once it got finished.haha Please add some pics and info to it it needs more to it..

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DSMHolset/

 

[sweet97]

A 9^cm2 would be perfect for our 2.0 liter motors IMHO. Does the 9^cm2 turbine fit the HX-35 turbine wheel?
If it does I could look in the yards but they may want too much but perhaps eBay would have something and since I just need the turbine housing the condition would not matter. Now I am kinda putting this on the back burner and will continue with it but not so extreme. Afterall it's not like a 120mph 1/4 is slow but I just want the full potential from the set-up and if the 50-80HP increase I have read about is true or even half true then it may be worth spending some time and cash! Thanks guys, Mark

 

[PSI TSI]

No the 9cm vband and the hx is 4bolt. I would consider a 12cm with a split scroll header.
I would think it would spool up pretty good compared to the 9cm. I would have tried that if I wouldnt have just found a 9cm he351w.

 

[PSI TSI]

Just went through the holset pics i have on my yahoo group and found this adapter pic

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

.

 

[sweet97]

I'm just gouing to make the best of what I have since high 11's at 120 is fine. I would have liked to have seen if there was a simple bolt on turbine and if it made more power. Thanks for the time all you guys gave this endeavor. Mark

 

[Maglin]

I was looking at getting the 18cm housing and using a t3/t4 adapter as I'm getting a DNP T4 manifold for my future HX50. I was planning on using some long exhaust studs and building a 1/2-3/4" spacer plate to alieviate any clearance issues. If anyone has the 12cm Holset housing and wants to sell it I'm looking for one. I'm willing to try both the 18 and 12 to see the differences in both spool and top end power. I'm looking for mainly top end power and I feel that the Bullesys's TH is to small and thus also creates spool way to fast. I didn't want to spool before 4500 RPMS for various reasons. I plan to shift at 9500ish on the strip with NLTS so respool isn't going to be an issue with me either.

Thanks for letting us know the 18cm housing isn't small enough to fit. I was going to find that one out the hard way.

edit:I just picked up a NEW HX52 today. Price was to low to pass up. I was looking for a HX50 or a HX40 if the price was low enough but I really wanted something that can support 750-800 HP on just the Turbo before Nitrous. I hope to recieve the 52 very soon. I'll take some compressor wheel and exhaust wheel measurments. From what little info I can gather this is a very fast spooling turbo for the Diesel crowd. Didn't say what the TH was. By the pic It is either a 18cm and the compressor is way bigger than I thought it was or it's a 12cm housing which is what I'm hoping for. It happens to use a V-Band to attach the CHRA so if it's to large I might look for a 12cm TH from a HY and get it milled to fit the turbine wheel.

 

[90AWDTalon]

I just got back from the local 1/8 mile drags. First time on the hx35. My best run was a 7.238. Rumor has it that it is really only 600 feet, instead of 660feet, so my real 1/8 mile should be 1.5 to 2 tenths slower. Later I'll post a pic of the time slip and a datalog of that run. This run was at 29psi on half a tank of 92 octane mixed with one bottle of NOS racing formula octane booster, so probably 94 or 95 octane.

 

[90AWDTalon]

Later I'll post a pic of the time slip and a datalog of that run. This run was at 29psi on half a tank of 92 octane mixed with one bottle of NOS racing formula octane booster, so probably 94 or 95 octane.

heres the log

 

[90AWDTalon]

Same log as above.

 

[Maglin]

that is prety decent. Seems you a a pretty decent tune to run 29 PSI at 19* advance with only 1 count of knock. What is your AFR? You are probably pushing 450ish HP their. That is really good on pump. Congratz. The track tell you that you need to get a cage yet? I don't remember what the 1/8th mile time is that they require one.

 

[90AWDTalon]

that is prety decent. Seems you a a pretty decent tune to run 29 PSI at 19* advance with only 1 count of knock. What is your AFR? You are probably pushing 450ish HP their. That is really good on pump. Congratz. The track tell you that you need to get a cage yet? I don't remember what the 1/8th mile time is that they require one.

19* seems high but that was at 7500rpms, way far away from the torque peak. In the strong portion of the torque curve I was between 11* and 14*. I just made a new chip adding 1* of timing in that range, also added code for a two stage rev limiter to help with the launch. If it quits raining I'll be back out there next Friday, hopefully with those changes, better 60 ft. time, and different shift points, I think my 2nd to 3rd shift was about 1000rpms late. I'll be able to get down close to 7.00. I'm runing in a 7.49-7.00 bracket so that would be ideal.

AFR was 10.89 on estimated 94-95 octane, half tank 92 plus one bottle of NOS octane booster.

So far the only requirement this track has no matter how quick the car is, is a helmet. There are a few more rules than last year, so maybe it's on the way, I hope not. I don't have the budget right now to get up to standards.

P.S. Whats up with the format of this thread, its all wacked out since I posted my log? If I did it some how can a moderator fix it?

 

[90AWDTalon]

Heres a pic of the time slip, kind of hard to read. I think I save the wrong scan.