Group buy: Stronger 5 speed gears!

[1cleangsx]

I think that’s a pretty darn good result within a week, with the gearset currently listed at regular price on their website I’d think that means it’s still in the works! This is definitely an exciting time for the 5 speed guys!

 

[CrackedDSM]

I think that’s a pretty darn good result within a week, with the gearset currently listed at regular price on their website I’d think that means it’s still in the works! This is definitely an exciting time for the 5 speed guys!

I legit don't know what I'll do if it goes through and I get them in the mail a year from now. Would be surreal. Maybe by then Tim Z would be back up to building these gear grinders again and I can just throw it all his way.

 

[fourgsixty3]

So I just received an email from Neat and it's a go. Also for those that didn't have the cash right now to pay for it fully, they will now be able to put down a 25% non refundable deposit for a either a 1-4 or 3-4 gear set with the remainder due mid March or so. The price for the second round of pre-orders will be slightly higher.

 

[bastarddsm]

I was looking through the posts and found it amusing the people comparing neat to ppg and asking if every demanded ppg have a prototype and all that jazz when the dogbox came out.

PPG made a set, put them in sheps car, shep went 7's, noone questions ppg. Even then, they've still had 2 major revisions over the years.

I just went out and looked at the PPG build I'm doing right now and neat's setup is going to have wider gears than the ppg stuff. 1st in a ppg is a lot wider than stock, 2nd and 4th a little bit, 3rd is narrower. So for a "street" gearbox neat is sacrificing the synchronizer teeth for gears wider than the toughest W5M33 set there is. If you've ever actually built a trans, which most of you have not you'd see why having the engagement teeth all the way up against the gear teeth is a problem. Any wear at all on the engagement teeth and they are going to jump out of geat. The shift throws are going to be short and not tolerate ANY wear or poor shifting techniques.

OOH 9310! 9310! skeet skeet. A few nonengineering people get all riled up and start spouting out material specifications without knowing the whole story. 9310 is super huge fatigue resistant material, and it's strong. But, it's generally got a soft case that doesn't wear as well as other materials (pro rear end gears anyone?) And it also has about a 0 chance of high temp lack of oil survivability. I'm not suggesting that the gearset should survive being ran out of oil, but I'm saying that we don't really know shit about the internal oiling of a W5M33, and how well this is going to work. I've seen some complaints of PPG stuff not wearing well in high mileage situations. They are probably not 9310 but a cousin like EN36. Which leads me to my next point. Outside of the USA, no one would choose 9310, because it's an American standard. They'd use 10NiCrMo13-5 or EN36 or something like that. So is neat just using a buzzword, or are they really using 9310, do they really understand the difference, did the shop that is making the gear specify that. If it is 9310 what kind of 9310 is it? There are about a dozen different specifications, with somewhat wildly differing properties, especially when it comes to gear tooth fatigue.

The center diff is another huge issue. Not even a 3d print of that. I'm not excited about the prospect of having to machine a brand new CD body when it shows up setup like everyone else does them. When they can fix the problem right now and make the diff how it should be. The floating cross shaft and driving off 2 pins are both a death sentence. I've seen neat recommend the turned down stock cross shaft, and we all know how well that works.

 

[We're on Boost]

The price for the second round of pre-orders will be slightly higher.

Oh I see the full price has already gone up. Geez.
During the sale, the "Full" price was shown as 8,950 AUD (crossed out because of the sale). Or 5,975 USD.
Now the Full price is 9,845 AUD. Or 6,573 USD.
The sale price was about 5,010 USD.

 

[TuskeeTuner]

Damn, this really is a great deal. I just had a complete rebuild with a handful of upgrades through TRE earlier this year that came out to $4k USD. Had this been an option earlier this year, I absolutely would have dropped that extra thousand. I really hope this takes off, sorry I can't add one more to the group buy list.

I can't get ahold of TRE. No email replies, no phone.
Same thing...I spent about the same amount with Jack's in Feb.

 

[fourgsixty3]

Oh I see the full price has already gone up. Geez.
During the sale, the "Full" price was shown as 8,950 AUD (crossed out because of the sale). Or 5,975 USD.
Now the Full price is 9,845 AUD. Or 6,573 USD.
The sale price was about 5,010 USD.

Interesting. According to the email the price for those who choose to put down a deposit for the second round will be 8250 AUD.

 

[95REGF150]

I was looking through the posts and found it amusing the people comparing neat to ppg and asking if every demanded ppg have a prototype and all that jazz when the dogbox came out.

PPG made a set, put them in sheps car, shep went 7's, noone questions ppg. Even then, they've still had 2 major revisions over the years.

I just went out and looked at the PPG build I'm doing right now and neat's setup is going to have wider gears than the ppg stuff. 1st in a ppg is a lot wider than stock, 2nd and 4th a little bit, 3rd is narrower. So for a "street" gearbox neat is sacrificing the synchronizer teeth for gears wider than the toughest W5M33 set there is. If you've ever actually built a trans, which most of you have not you'd see why having the engagement teeth all the way up against the gear teeth is a problem. Any wear at all on the engagement teeth and they are going to jump out of geat. The shift throws are going to be short and not tolerate ANY wear or poor shifting techniques.

OOH 9310! 9310! skeet skeet. A few nonengineering people get all riled up and start spouting out material specifications without knowing the whole story. 9310 is super huge fatigue resistant material, and it's strong. But, it's generally got a soft case that doesn't wear as well as other materials (pro rear end gears anyone?) And it also has about a 0 chance of high temp lack of oil survivability. I'm not suggesting that the gearset should survive being ran out of oil, but I'm saying that we don't really know shit about the internal oiling of a W5M33, and how well this is going to work. I've seen some complaints of PPG stuff not wearing well in high mileage situations. They are probably not 9310 but a cousin like EN36. Which leads me to my next point. Outside of the USA, no one would choose 9310, because it's an American standard. They'd use 10NiCrMo13-5 or EN36 or something like that. So is neat just using a buzzword, or are they really using 9310, do they really understand the difference, did the shop that is making the gear specify that. If it is 9310 what kind of 9310 is it? There are about a dozen different specifications, with somewhat wildly differing properties, especially when it comes to gear tooth fatigue.

The center diff is another huge issue. Not even a 3d print of that. I'm not excited about the prospect of having to machine a brand new CD body when it shows up setup like everyone else does them. When they can fix the problem right now and make the diff how it should be. The floating cross shaft and driving off 2 pins are both a death sentence. I've seen neat recommend the turned down stock cross shaft, and we all know how well that works.

Kurt from an engineering perspective your such a wealth of knowledge on this stuff. How come you didn't do the group buy and make up a gearset for us?

Do you know what the factory gears are made out of? Something similar to 8620 standard? I personally am not concerned about the 9310 or similar spec. We do planetary gearboxes where I work and our standard line uses 8620. If its higher output at higher face pressures in the same package we jump up to 9310 with the caveat the box will not have the same lifespan. For me trading wear resistance for the higher fatigue strength and toughness is a fine exchange. I don't know about you guys but this car is more of a toy now and i am not going to be putting 80k street miles on it. I'm buying a gearset because I want it to last under a few more hard miles. Of course you could get more out of it with an exotic material like the Ferrium line or something else right. But keeping the cost in check for this set is obviously a priority. Hard enough to get people to buy in at the $5K range.

I too am curious to see which direction they go with the center diff. I would also be a little disappointed if it is the same floating cross shaft like the factory design. I would assume PPG went that direction for simplicity so they only had to manufacture the housing portion that interfaced with their gearset and none of the center diff internals or output splines. For their more racing oriented set the diff was probably secondary to the spool anyway so it didn't matter for them. Hopefully that is not the case here. I agree with what you posted on the Neat FB group. Would be simple to split it in the center and capture the spider shafts like every other differential. Doesn't really seem any more complicated either. Hopefully they will take your advice.

As for the synch teeth engagement length for throw and feel. I guess we're just going to have to wait and see.

 

[bastarddsm]

Kurt from an engineering perspective your such a wealth of knowledge on this stuff. How come you didn't do the group buy and make up a gearset for us?

Do you know what the factory gears are made out of? Something similar to 8620 standard? I personally am not concerned about the 9310 or similar spec. We do planetary gearboxes where I work and our standard line uses 8620. If its higher output at higher face pressures in the same package we jump up to 9310 with the caveat the box will not have the same lifespan. For me trading wear resistance for the higher fatigue strength and toughness is a fine exchange. I don't know about you guys but this car is more of a toy now and i am not going to be putting 80k street miles on it. I'm buying a gearset because I want it to last under a few more hard miles. Of course you could get more out of it with an exotic material like the Ferrium line or something else right. But keeping the cost in check for this set is obviously a priority. Hard enough to get people to buy in at the $5K range.

I too am curious to see which direction they go with the center diff. I would also be a little disappointed if it is the same floating cross shaft like the factory design. I would assume PPG went that direction for simplicity so they only had to manufacture the housing portion that interfaced with their gearset and none of the center diff internals or output splines. For their more racing oriented set the diff was probably secondary to the spool anyway so it didn't matter for them. Hopefully that is not the case here. I agree with what you posted on the Neat FB group. Would be simple to split it in the center and capture the spider shafts like every other differential. Doesn't really seem any more complicated either. Hopefully they will take your advice.

As for the synch teeth engagement length for throw and feel. I guess we're just going to have to wait and see.

I just bought a hob, so we'll see what happens....I know I need a lot more as well. On the hunt for a shaper now. I do not know what the OEM gears are. From some of my research I tend to think they are a nitriding alloy like 4130 or something. Nissan published some SAE papers on using nitriding steels in transmissions, and I think Japan likes that better than carburizing. For the record I wasn't implying that 9310 was the wrong choice, just simply that there is a lot more too it than that. From my research it's hard on tooling and about impossible to find a good heat treater for.

Like I said in the earlier post, I was all in and wanted to make some of the parts even if it meant working for peanuts just to get the project going, had a discussion going with them, and had looked forward to hashing out the center diff, and discussing the engagement teeth, and was left on read. So that ended the tale for me. Oh and the first gear ratio too.

I think they really missed the target on this. We needed commodity priced replacement parts with slight tweaks, not a full redesign. It needed the undercut on 4th gone, 3rd input gear made full width, and perhaps a better material. Complete redesign of the synchro stuff is a bit much, it's gonna be a 30 unit orphan.

 

[95REGF150]

I just bought a hob, so we'll see what happens....I know I need a lot more as well. On the hunt for a shaper now. I do not know what the OEM gears are. From some of my research I tend to think they are a nitriding alloy like 4130 or something. Nissan published some SAE papers on using nitriding steels in transmissions, and I think Japan likes that better than carburizing. For the record I wasn't implying that 9310 was the wrong choice, just simply that there is a lot more too it than that. From my research it's hard on tooling and about impossible to find a good heat treater for.

Like I said in the earlier post, I was all in and wanted to make some of the parts even if it meant working for peanuts just to get the project going, had a discussion going with them, and had looked forward to hashing out the center diff, and discussing the engagement teeth, and was left on read. So that ended the tale for me. Oh and the first gear ratio too.

I think they really missed the target on this. We needed commodity priced replacement parts with slight tweaks, not a full redesign. It needed the undercut on 4th gone, 3rd input gear made full width, and perhaps a better material. Complete redesign of the synchro stuff is a bit much, it's gonna be a 30 unit orphan.

Interesting. Nitrided 4140 is a great option too. We use that on some of our larger internal gears that would be to expensive to be made on 8620. Been through some testing with it depending on the nitriding depth it can hold up super well.

I know they were going back and forth with Tim Z some as well. Wonder if he ended up getting the same static from them. I know he has been very vocal about how many of the OE parts sychro wise and other that are discontinued. May have effected their decision to change the sychro and fork setup completely. They have said they will continue to support it for at least a few years. I know promises don't mean a whole lot though.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

since every bearing shim and so many other parts OEM have long gone it basically needed to be redesigned again. they did it for most of the parts being off the shelf bearings and less expense if something breaks. so yeah a lot of it was for the OEM issue reasons why it was basically redone from scratch. I'm sure if mitsu had OEM parts still going then an upgraded form of the OEM specs in a stronger material would of been more ideal to them and most people but since that's no longer the case we have to fix mitsu's problems of ditching us for crappy EV's and suv's so a full redesign it is.

the good thing about mitsu of old and new tech is designs have come ALONG way since, so they can pinch ideas that work with other models. materials have also gotten better and processes to, I'm sure DLC and WEP would also go along way for added reliability on a lot of the parts. again treatments that were not readily available back then which will help in the modern time

 

[bastarddsm]

Interesting. Nitrided 4140 is a great option too. We use that on some of our larger internal gears that would be to expensive to be made on 8620. Been through some testing with it depending on the nitriding depth it can hold up super well.

I know they were going back and forth with Tim Z some as well. Wonder if he ended up getting the same static from them. I know he has been very vocal about how many of the OE parts sychro wise and other that are discontinued. May have effected their decision to change the sychro and fork setup completely. They have said they will continue to support it for at least a few years. I know promises don't mean a whole lot though.

From what I've seen the Nitriding steels don't seem to have the fatigue life of a carburizing steel, but they don't have the distortion of carburizing.

 

[We're on Boost]

Interesting. According to the email the price for those who choose to put down a deposit for the second round will be 8250 AUD.

I just looked through the members only FB page again looking for anything about a 2nd round and I don't see it.
The closest thing I see is a NEAT admin saying "We will be in touch here in the next few days about how to nudge those numbers over the edge." That was 15 hours ago.
From what you are saying, they are planning a second "Sale" (reduced price for a short period of time) and I suppose that would happen soon. Right? Did they say anything about when in the email?

 

[95REGF150]

They sent all of use who purchased a gearset an email laying out their plans for allowing a deposit program at a slightly higher price. Said if we did not have any objections they would post it up in the next few days.

 

[fourgsixty3]

They sent all of use who purchased a gearset an email laying out their plans for allowing a deposit program at a slightly higher price. Said if we did not have any objections they would post it up in the next few days.

Yup. I'm not sure why anyone would have any objections to it.

 

[troppo loungo]

Would this use the stock 5th gear? Also how does the front rear torque split work? Does this use the stock VC which is shit?

 

[95REGF150]

Would this use the stock 5th gear? Also how does the front rear torque split work? Does this use the stock VC which is shit?

There has been no discussion as yet for a 5th gear for this set. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but 5th gear being on the other side of the bearing plate makes it a bit separate from the 1-4 gears. Meaning you can do it separately quite easily. PPG offers theirs as a separate piece at a higher price if you are not buying their 1-4 gearset. Unless I'm wrong you could use a PPG 5th with this set if you wanted for some reason. I'm not sure why no one has copied the Evo 3 5th gear set in the aftermarket yet. I know when Tim sold the last of them on here he was getting $500 a set just for 5th and that was quite some time ago. I'll bet you could get $800 each for the Evo 3 5th gear set if you made them today not even upgraded.

Also, as we have been discussing above there has not been much revealed about their center diff design yet. You can bet that it is going to be an open center much like stock we are all just hoping it is upgraded for the torque. There is not much room in the center diff to be able to have it take the torque and also try to fit a limited slip setup into it. That's what happended with the Quaife version. Had the torsen setup for limited slip but was too thin and kept breaking.

The VC goes onto the output from the center diff. It's actually quite large so there's some room there. Ideally if we can breath some life back into this platform with this gearset someone could build a mechanical VC replacment with clutches. This is what the Adelia magic coupling was and is now like gold.

 

[TedBrosby]

There has been no discussion as yet for a 5th gear for this set. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but 5th gear being on the other side of the bearing plate makes it a bit separate from the 1-4 gears. Meaning you can do it separately quite easily. PPG offers theirs as a separate piece at a higher price if you are not buying their 1-4 gearset. Unless I'm wrong you could use a PPG 5th with this set if you wanted for some reason. I'm not sure why no one has copied the Evo 3 5th gear set in the aftermarket yet. I know when Tim sold the last of them on here he was getting $500 a set just for 5th and that was quite some time ago. I'll bet you could get $800 each for the Evo 3 5th gear set if you made them today not even upgraded.

Also, as we have been discussing above there has not been much revealed about their center diff design yet. You can bet that it is going to be an open center much like stock we are all just hoping it is upgraded for the torque. There is not much room in the center diff to be able to have it take the torque and also try to fit a limited slip setup into it. That's what happended with the Quaife version. Had the torsen setup for limited slip but was too thin and kept breaking.

The VC goes onto the output from the center diff. It's actually quite large so there's some room there. Ideally if we can breath some life back into this platform with this gearset someone could build a mechanical VC replacment with clutches. This is what the Adelia magic coupling was and is now like gold.

Honda owners used an adapter plate to mate a B series transmission to H series motors, there’s no way we can do something like this to mate a tougher transmission to the 4G63T?

 

[Ludachris]

Honda owners used an adapter plate to mate a B series transmission to H series motors, there’s no way we can do something like this to mate a tougher transmission to the 4G63T?

The problem is that the only real option is the Evo transmission, which as you probably are aware, has the engine and transmission mounted in the reverse orientation compared to a DSM (transmission is on the wrong side). If there were a way to make it work, I would imagine someone would have done it by now. I imagine it's too steep an engineering feat to overcome.

With that said, the Evo motor can be swapped into a N/T 2G, since the orientation of the 420A motor is the same as the Evo. It's not cheap or easy, but it's likely a bit more realistic. More info on that here:

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/420-to-4g63.526351/post-153747533

 

[1990dsmkid]

Just curious as i dont follow on facebook. Has there been any updates on these gears?

 

[We're on Boost]

Just curious as i dont follow on facebook. Has there been any updates on these gears?

This is the latest post for the 1-4 set:

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[DreamChaser7]

Thanks for this I’m not on FecesBook either and was wondering where he was at with this.

 

[92AWDHX40]

I think a few of us were wondering the same thing, thanks for the update.

 

[TedBrosby]

Did any of you buy the set/pre-order? I was on the fence but didn't end up pulling the trigger. Now that it's almost complete, wishing I did, I had the money at the time.

 

[We're on Boost]

Did any of you buy the set/pre-order? I was on the fence but didn't end up pulling the trigger. Now that it's almost complete, wishing I did, I had the money at the time.

I haven't ordered one but that's because my dogbox cost a lot, that was in 2019, and it's going along same as ever, so I wasn't ready to put another big chunk of money out yet. But I want a synchro box again at some point if this NEAT stuff works out. So I'm watching it too, thinking about the future.
I looked through the replies to that Dec 1 post above, looking for what they say about the set as a regular continuing product. Here's what I found, sounds good to me:

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Checking the current price shown in the link in the first reply, I see this, which apparently is US dollars.
Yeah this $5,697 is USD. They were showing the price in AUD a year ago but now they are showing it in USD.

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