Bigger stronger W5M33 gears?

[TWOpointFORliter]

Looks like we might finally get some better gear options for people who don’t want to build a dogbox. This is the same company started making spider gears for our center diffs a while ago. I hope they get enough interest to put this into production.

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[Canadian_CD9A]

Very curious to see if they can get the strength needed in the hub/sleeve, whether they can overcome existing (and future) parts shortages, and what they'll do to with the center diff housing and bits to suit. The platform needs a miracle, and Neat already has experience with producing some of it.

 

[gsxitement]

Super excited to read this on Facebook earlier. Granted, by all accounts I should be going to a PPG, but I do not have the cabbage for one. Yet. But this should be a decent bridge to hold me over till I can.

 

[danl]

I’m looking for something like this, looks like I should try to find an awd box to accept this .

 

[CrackedDSM]

I’m saving money now. Even if I don’t use it I’m gonna support new products being developed for this. He’s working with Tim Z and Ricky Nichols too(according to his posts at least) on producing some maintenance items for our transmissions as well.

With that said, can’t wait to hear from someone or a couple someone’s how this is somehow a bad idea.

 

[Canadian_CD9A]

The idea on paper is very good. It's a stronger helical gear setup, which is the friendliest option possible for street cars. This something the community has wanted forever but could never get started because of huge buy-in costs; DSMers largely preferred to eat up more W5M33 gears and ignore the problem as if OEM parts would never run out. In essence, you buy the Neat kit because you have a bigger turbo street car and you need a rebuild, but hate straight cut gear whine.

Stock/Neat kit - pure quiet street driver, torque limits will still apply to this kit
PAR synchro kit - loud whine but still fine to drive on the street, great for a high-torque street car
PAR/PPG dog kit - mostly race cars that don't see the street, or powerful dual purpose cars that are driven on the street

Even if you start to add up the costs of replacing stock W5M33 parts, it makes more sense to buy the Neat kit than to replace with stock, and that's before even taking strength and improved shifting on 3 & 4 into consideration, and the availability of the OEM stuff.

Boostin' bearing plate - $850.00
New intermediate shaft - $300.00 (or take a chance on some dodgy used part)
New 3rd gear - $200.00 (hard to find the Evo part)
New 4th gear - $200.00
New shift fork - $100.00 (hard to find the Evo part)
New shift rail - $100.00 (hard to find the Evo part)
New hub/sleeve - $250.00
New synchros (2) - $200.00
New 4-spider housing and pin - $600.00
Lots of bearings - $150.00 (hard to find the DSM/Evo parts)

And with that, you're already at the $2,900 they think they'll price the intro kits at. When you consider it's more than half of the contents of the PAR synchro kit, which is about $3,800 US plus shipping, but you get an upgraded bearing plate, hub/slider/fork/rail/synchros on top - it's a great deal. My concerns were the ones I listed above, since they are sacrificing hub & sleeve material to accommodate thicker gears, and we don't know what consumables will be necessary to service them if the need arises. Two major W5M33 Achilles heels are fixed here, namely the flex of the stock bearing housing, the 2-spider center diff arrangement, and a third if you consider the weakness of the stock gears themselves. I presume they improved the 4th gear back cut situation, which was another issue with the stock gears, but that has other consequences. I hope they integrate the center diff improvements Tim suggested, and have the kit as close to drop-in as possible. With an improved back cut, lesser helix and the added gear surface area, if it is enough to make a W5M33 transmission live in the 450-500 ft-lbs window in which lots of street cars live, it's a must-have for anyone who is at a crossroads. It's hopefully going to be readily available, and that alone is probably enough to make most people consider it as the 1st option.

 

[bastarddsm]

I’m saving money now. Even if I don’t use it I’m gonna support new products being developed for this. He’s working with Tim Z and Ricky Nichols too(according to his posts at least) on producing some maintenance items for our transmissions as well.

With that said, can’t wait to hear from someone or a couple someone’s how this is somehow a bad idea.

Your reading comprehension is poor. And it's not a great idea, the noise to signal ratio is going to be so astronomical.

 

[twicks69]

I will be having a call with Sam at NEAT next week. I want to see if we can do a couple design changes such as integrating an existing platform readily available synchro such as a Honda one for 3/4 location. Bearings need to be changed to a more effective solution for all 3 locations in the bearing plate due to parts availability, and I want to find a solution that has a tapered roller bearing and a standard roller bearing option that I can integrate into a PPG gearset.

The center diff housing and cover, along with the upper and lower pinion gears, pinion shims and spider washers are all obsolete or nearly obsolete, so design of those components require attention as well.

There are numerous other details that require attention due to parts availability so I have to discuss that with NEAT.

I am working on another big job for the transmission currently for extremely high power applications that will hopefully be what we need to keep the driveline alive deeper into the 6 second territory. That will take a bunch of changes as well, and we are trying to keep as much of the PPG V3 gearset still being utilized without replacement to upgrade. We are getting to the limits of 7.25" triple disk clutches when it comes to longevity and torque capacity, so things like a larger clutch, custom flywheel, modification to the bellhousing, integration of a replacement TOB sleeve or potentially a hydro TOB, or larger bore TOB that can work with an OEM style clutch fork, all are details I have to look at. It is not going to be easy or cheap, but I can tell you if you are at the point of breaking PPG dogboxes more than once from track usage, it will be money well spent to keep the parts alive.

 

[gsxitement]

I will be having a call with Sam at NEAT next week. I want to see if we can do a couple design changes such as integrating an existing platform readily available synchro such as a Honda one for 3/4 location. Bearings need to be changed to a more effective solution for all 3 locations in the bearing plate due to parts availability, and I want to find a solution that has a tapered roller bearing and a standard roller bearing option that I can integrate into a PPG gearset.

The center diff housing and cover, along with the upper and lower pinion gears, pinion shims and spider washers are all obsolete or nearly obsolete, so design of those components require attention as well.

There are numerous other details that require attention due to parts availability so I have to discuss that with NEAT.

I am working on another big job for the transmission currently for extremely high power applications that will hopefully be what we need to keep the driveline alive deeper into the 6 second territory. That will take a bunch of changes as well, and we are trying to keep as much of the PPG V3 gearset still being utilized without replacement to upgrade. We are getting to the limits of 7.25" triple disk clutches when it comes to longevity and torque capacity, so things like a larger clutch, custom flywheel, modification to the bellhousing, integration of a replacement TOB sleeve or potentially a hydro TOB, or larger bore TOB that can work with an OEM style clutch fork, all are details I have to look at. It is not going to be easy or cheap, but I can tell you if you are at the point of breaking PPG dogboxes more than once from track usage, it will money well spent to keep the parts alive.

Amazing work. I think I speak for everyone that we appreciate all the work you do for these cars. What are your thoughts overall about the NEAT transmission stuff? I time attack and can’t really afford a PPG, so I’m hoping this will bridge the gap from what we currently have to a PPG set.

 

[CrackedDSM]

I will be having a call with Sam at NEAT next week. I want to see if we can do a couple design changes such as integrating an existing platform readily available synchro such as a Honda one for 3/4 location. Bearings need to be changed to a more effective solution for all 3 locations in the bearing plate due to parts availability, and I want to find a solution that has a tapered roller bearing and a standard roller bearing option that I can integrate into a PPG gearset.

The center diff housing and cover, along with the upper and lower pinion gears, pinion shims and spider washers are all obsolete or nearly obsolete, so design of those components require attention as well.

There are numerous other details that require attention due to parts availability so I have to discuss that with NEAT.

I am working on another big job for the transmission currently for extremely high power applications that will hopefully be what we need to keep the driveline alive deeper into the 6 second territory. That will take a bunch of changes as well, and we are trying to keep as much of the PPG V3 gearset still being utilized without replacement to upgrade. We are getting to the limits of 7.25" triple disk clutches when it comes to longevity and torque capacity, so things like a larger clutch, custom flywheel, modification to the bellhousing, integration of a replacement TOB sleeve or potentially a hydro TOB, or larger bore TOB that can work with an OEM style clutch fork, all are details I have to look at. It is not going to be easy or cheap, but I can tell you if you are at the point of breaking PPG dogboxes more than once from track usage, it will money well spent to keep the parts alive.

Now this is someone useful and who gets shit done. Props to a real DSMer!

 

[twicks69]

Amazing work. I think I speak for everyone that we appreciate all the work you do for these cars. What are your thoughts overall about the NEAT transmission stuff? I time attack and can’t really afford a PPG, so I’m hoping this will bridge the gap from what we currently have to a PPG set.

Personally from Time Attack experience, the PPG is the most durable option, but I do understand that it can be a cramp on the budget. This set should work well in concept, but until there is real world testing under higher power levels we will not know what its limitations will be. Also, synchro transmissions for Time Attack aren't really the best choice, but it will all come down to how the gearset is manufactured and how the synchros work under racing scenarios.

 

[Drewpy Dawg]

Manual transmission failures and the cost to rebuild them (if you can even get the parts) are a big reason I'm not planning to race my DSM. It's just going to be a fun street car that I can hopefully enjoy for many years to come. I'm also pretty sure that the transmission I have is ok. That said, if it does need anything more than a simple refresh now or in the future I would seriously go for something like this from Neat. I've already been looking at some of what they offer should the need arise. If I need to do a rebuild I want to be able to just buy all the parts, put it together, and rest easy knowing that it's not going to break if I start having a little too much fun. As was already pointed out, you start replacing a few common parts and adding a few upgrades and you're already kissing three grand anyway. An integrated rebuild and upgrade package like this would be the perfect option for somebody like me and within my means. Please keep us updated!

 

[We're on Boost]

There are numerous other details that require attention due to parts availability so I have to discuss that with NEAT.

Overall OEM parts availability is so bad already and only going to get worse fast, so I was surprised when I read through their Facebook post that it was only going to be 3rd and 4th gear, because they are saying 4th gear is the weakest.
It's intended for Street use. How often do I blast through 4th gear at WOT on the street? About as often as I find a place where I can go 120 mph. Which is never.
So I'd be a lot more interested if it was for gears 1 through 4, (or even 1-5) and if gears 1 and 2 could also be made a little stronger than stock, and if it addressed all the other parts you need to go along with it, which will soon be unavailable. Of course it would have to cost more to do all that.

BTW I'd be interested in knowing what the basic composition of the steel is that they are using. What type of alloy. Are they talking about 9310 case hardened steel like their spider gears are? The 3D printed stuff was just for test fit, right?

 

[gsxitement]

Personally from Time Attack experience, the PPG is the most durable option, but I do understand that it can be a cramp on the budget. This set should work well in concept, but until there is real world testing under higher power levels we will not know what its limitations will be. Also, synchro transmissions for Time Attack aren't really the best choice, but it will all come down to how the gearset is manufactured and how the synchros work under racing scenarios.

Well, I’ll be available to test if need be

 

[bastarddsm]

Overall OEM parts availability is so bad already and only going to get worse fast, so I was surprised when I read through their Facebook post that it was only going to be 3rd and 4th gear, because they are saying 4th gear is the weakest.
It's intended for Street use. How often do I blast through 4th gear at WOT on the street? About as often as I find a place where I can go 120 mph. Which is never.
So I'd be a lot more interested if it was for gears 1 through 4, (or even 1-5) and if gears 1 and 2 could also be made a little stronger than stock, and if it addressed all the other parts you need to go along with it, which will soon be unavailable. Of course it would have to cost more to do all that.

BTW I'd be interested in knowing what the basic composition of the steel is that they are using. What type of alloy. Are they talking about 9310 case hardened steel like their spider gears are? The 3D printed stuff was just for test fit, right?

I would assume it's going to be 9310. Any gear like this will be a case hardened steel gear - Even the originals are. They might be going to do 8620 simply because the heat treat is more straight forward and done everywhere. also distortion from heat treat is less. 9310 machines like hell and is complicated to heat treat, and moves more. So it will add to the manufacturing cost quite a bit. We'll see what happens. I've offered to work on manufacturing some of the needed parts, as I probably make/machine/modify more W5M33 parts in house than just about anyone.

 

[1cleangsx]

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Looks pretty sweet but kinda pricey

 

[1cleangsx]

NEAT GEARBOXES W5M33 SPORTSYNC 1-4 GEAR KIT - Neat Gearboxes Shop

NEAT GEARBOXES W5M33 SPORTSYNC 1-4 GEAR KIT

shop.neatgearboxes.com.au

 

[twicks69]

That is a steal of a price.

7500 AUD is currently $4900 USD.
You are getting literally completely upgraded 1/2/3/4 gearset with Carbon lined synchros, custom stronger hub and sliders, steel shift forks, shift rail(s), an upgraded complete center differential, bearings, billet bearing plate to fit the new dimension bearings being used (Mitsu went obsolete on nearly every bearing in the transmission), etc. Plus the gears have dog rings that are serviceable, meaning if you beat the crap out of it, you can replace the worn dog engagement ring, replace the carbon synchro, and replace the 1/2 slider and you are back on the move, saving the cost of purchasing an entire gear because of a worn dog ring. You will still use some parts for rebuilding from OEM Mitsubishi, but the goal is not having to rely on Mitsubishi for the parts anymore for the majority of components, which they really enjoy making obsolete and making our lives horrible.

In comparison, PPG 1-4 gearset is:
1/2/3/4 gears and shafts, and either a spool or just a bare center diff lower housing, for $5600 + s/h. Then you have another $1000+ in OEM parts for the rebuild, billet 1/2 shift fork (~$150-250), 4 spider center diff components and machine work ($600-1200, don't forget, the OEM stuff is obsolete), billet bearing plate ($900-1000), etc.

This is all before labor, cleaning, machine work, etc.

You guys do not understand, it is a very good value and I have faith that it will be the best available synchronized gearset solution for these cars. Especially considering that almost all of the OEM parts are obsolete. If the OEM parts were still available to make a comparable transmission with a boostin billet bearing plate and magnus billet forks, it would be $6200 in parts alone.

 

[CrackedDSM]

That is a steal of a price.

7500 AUD is currently $4900 USD.
You are getting literally completely upgraded 1/2/3/4 gearset with synchros, hub and sliders, shift forks, shift rail, upgraded complete center differential, bearings, billet bearing plate, etc. Plus the gears have dog rings that are serviceable, meaning if you beat the crap out of it, you can replace the worn dog engagement ring, replace the carbon synchro, and replace the 1/2 slider and you are back on the move, saving the cost of purchasing an entire gear because of a worn dog ring. You will still use some parts for rebuilding from OEM Mitsubishi, but the goal is not having to rely on Mitsubishi for the parts anymore for the majority of components, which they really enjoy making obsolete and making our lives horrible.

In comparison, PPG 1-4 gearset is:
1/2/3/4 gears and shafts, and either a spool or just a bare center diff lower housing, for $5600 + s/h. Then you have another $1000+ in OEM parts for the rebuild, billet 1/2 shift fork (~$150-250), 4 spider center diff components and machine work ($600-1200, don't forget, the OEM stuff is obsolete), billet bearing plate ($900-1000), etc.

This is all before labor, cleaning, machine work, etc.

You guys do not understand, it is a very good value and I have faith that it will be the best available synchronized gearset solution for these cars. Especially considering that almost all of the OEM parts are obsolete. If the OEM parts were still available to make a comparable transmission with a boostin billet bearing plate and magnus billet forks, it would be $6200 in parts alone.

I’m sold AF.

 

[gsxitement]

Gotta find some money for this.

 

[We're on Boost]

This is awesome. I didn't think it would ever happen. TG for Australia, man they are doing so much for the 90's Japanese performance cars.

 

[95REGF150]

ost of purchasing an entire gear

I think this is the coolest thing to happen for the platform in a long time. I think the price is great, complete new center diff & billet mid plate are coming with the new gearset for that I mean seems almost too good to be true.

Tim, will you be offering build services for this kit on complete transmissions? Looking at the ad they aren't projecting the parts will be done until late '24 to '25. I'm really thinking about pulling the trigger on it but I don't want to put together a $5k setup myself rather take advantage of your experience.

 

[Drewpy Dawg]

Freakin awesome. I completely agree, $4900 USD is a good price. Glad this is available now.

 

[twicks69]

I think this is the coolest thing to happen for the platform in a long time. I think the price is great, complete new center diff & billet mid plate are coming with the new gearset for that I mean seems almost too good to be true.

Tim, will you be offering build services for this kit on complete transmissions? Looking at the ad they aren't projecting the parts will be done until late '24 to '25. I'm really thinking about pulling the trigger on it but I don't want to put together a $5k setup myself rather take advantage of your experience.

I am planning on being able to do the job. I need to manufacture shims, and will also need to know the different bearing dimensions that he plans on using in the bearing plate so those shims are manufactured as well.

 

[fourgsixty3]

Tim, since you're in communication with them, have they said anything about the 5th gear? I know the idea has been tossed around on their Facebook page so hopefully that's in the works as well.