Alternative Fuel E85 E-85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Advanced) [MERGED]

[TranceNRG]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR ADVANCED E85 QUESTIONS, NOT "IS IT POSSIBLE?" THE BEGINNER E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THOSE TYPES OF QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/59040-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-beginner-merged-5-24-8-a.html?highlight=E85+MERGED

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE SERIOUSLY WANTING TO DO THE CONVERSION OR HAVE DONE IT AND HAVE MORE DETAILED QUESTIONS. Below is a quick Ethanol/E85 (Advanced) rundown before you start reading through the merged threads, maybe this will answer you question a bit sooner. To quickly navigate this thread for keywords use the "SEARCH THIS THREAD" tool located in the top right hand corner of this post.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

The stock tank and fuel lines will work fine running E85 and you don't have to change timing on your car when you convert to E85. The smallest pump you'll want to run is a Walbro 255 (rewired), its convenient because it drops right in with a cheap install kit and its a bit cheaper then a Bosch. When you upgrade to such a high flowing fuel pump you'll also need to grab a adjustable fuel pressure regulator (AFPR) to keep everything in check. I also suggest (its not necessary) to upgrade to a FueLab fuel filter with a 40 micron metal element, the Ethanol will eat the OE paper filter over time.

Depending on what time of year it is or your location will determine what type of Ethanol you have available at the pump. Gas stations receive E100 (100% Ethanol) year round and then blend it with 87 octane gasoline and depending on the blend (E85 or E70) it will change the ethanol content rating, octane, and specific gravity of the fuel itself. The typical blends are summer (E85) and winter (E70) which is the MINIMUM amount of ethanol blended with gasoline.

Winter blend (E70)- 70% E100 (113oct) and 30% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 105.
Summer blend (E85)- 85% E100 (113oct) and 15% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 109.​

FINDING OUT WHAT INJECTORS YOU NEED
Since the chemical makeup of ethanol is different you must account for it in your injectors flow rating. To do so you use the following equation by inputing the injectors flow rated on gas multiplied by 0.67. For example, I'll use 750cc injectors and estimate the flow capabilities of them running E85.

750 x 0.67 = 502.5​

After you make the switch to E85 your 750cc injectors will flow 502cc which you'd find out isn't even enough to support the airflow of a 16g turbo.

For you mathematicians, you can also do the equation backwards if you know what size of injectors you would need for you turbo setup on pump gas. For example, a 20g turbos max airflow is 52 lbs/min so on pump gas you would need 880cc injectors to support it.

"pump rated injector flow" x 0.67 = 880
"pump rated injector flow" = 880 / 0.67
"pump rated injector flow" = 1313cc​

After doing the above equation you find that a 1300cc injector will flow about 880cc which is what you want to support a 20g, so before you convert to E85 you need to get 1300cc injectors!​

Like the title says, what did you use to convert to E85?

 

[BigBeans]

you don't need the fuel rail... You pretty much have everything you need already. Maybe an AFPR the stock one with work but if you wanna be safe its a good idea. The fuel filter is probably a good idea unless you wanna change it every year. You don't need to replace the rubber parts of your fuel lines. Its a myth, modern fuel injection hose can handle e85. Its older cars that use carburetors that you have to worry about.

Replacing the fuel rail is a good move. E85 causes naked Al to oxidize from prolonged exposure, so it's smart to anodize or replace the stock rail with an anodized one.

 

[Gstclipse69]

I would get an aftermarket fuel filter, something like the fuelab one and run a 6an line from it to your fuel rail. The banjo bolt on the top of the stock fuel filter is very restrictive. The fuelab filter comes with a paper filter, so you could run it for say like 500 miles and then switch it out for the SS filter element. The e85 should clean out a lot of debris from your tank and line and it will accumulate in the filter.

FUELAB | FUEL FILTERS | 818 SERIES

 

[SpawnedX]

Properly do it?

- Fuel Rail
- Fuel Lines
- Fuel Pump
- Injectors
- AFPR
- Steel Filter

 

[Tanro]

You mean megasquirt? Megasquirt is a terrible idea unless you have a 420a or something else that has literally no other option.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Spoonedx do you run e85?

 

[SpawnedX]

Not at the moment, we don't have e85 close enough for me to do it. I am building my car to handle it though for track days.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Point proven. Anyways.., you don't need half of that. Fuel pump, injectors, and obviously something to tune--all you need.

 

[staztrx250]

Replacing the fuel rail is a good move. E85 causes naked Al to oxidize from prolonged exposure, so it's smart to anodize or replace the stock rail with an anodized one.

Yeah it does but its not gonna affect anything for years.

 

[SpawnedX]

Point proven. Anyways.., you don't need half of that. Fuel pump, injectors, and obviously something to tune--all you need.

I didn't say you needed all of that. So, your point isn't proven. However, that would still be the proper way to do it. Supporting mods are the proper way to get the most out of your setup.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

The information on this thread is already full of doody from people that I'm sure don't run e85. If you don't run e85 then don't tell people what the should or shouldn't replace to run it.

 

[SpawnedX]

The information on this thread is already full of doody from people that I'm sure don't run e85. If you don't run e85 then don't tell people what the should or shouldn't replace to run it.

Maybe one day you will stop confusing what you should and shouldn't with what you need and don't need. Until then, just because you feel like you are an expert, you can politely put your opinions in the thread and move on, because nothing you have said negates the fact that just because someone doesn't run e85 yet, doesn't mean that they haven't researched and...gasp...may even know more than you about it (which I am neither saying I do or I don't).

However, my recommendation to the poster, is to bang it all out in one shot, because...gasp again...these cars are 12 to 21 years old and stuff is worn as-is and could use a proper replacement that allows you room to grow on principle.

 

[thetalonator]

e85 is 40% to 50% thicker than gasoline so it requires 40%to 50% at least larger injectors. The stoichiometric afr for e85 is 9.76:1 and gasoline is 14.7:1 so you need to set your injector dead times accordingly as well as global fuel values to compensate for this change. if u have it availabe in your area id suggest converting its the best thing i ever did. it has a octane rating of 105 its cheaper then gas and heres the big plus the autoignition temp for e85 is 689 degrees where gasoline is only 475 degrees. u can run more boost more aggressive timing as well as leaner afr ( to increase gas mileage).I have yet to see knock on my car since i converted.

op you have everything you need to convert but im not sure about your tuning device.? if you can adjust your timing curve and fuel maps u should be ok. your gonna need a fpr tho. good luck.

 

[bastarddsm]

e85 is 40% to 50% thicker than gasoline so it requires 40%to 50% at least larger injectors.

dude, what the #### does that even mean? Are you implying that E85 and Gasoline have vastly differing viscosities? They don't. But E85 does contain much less energy per volume unit, so you need about a 50% larger fuel system.

In all honesty all you need is some sort of a tuning system to run E85. I generally just change the global injector comp to 30% of what injectors I have, and lean out the high load areas of the map.

But you really don't even need to do that, I went faster than 39% of this board on a 450's 255hp, stock lines/filter, and a shimmed FPR. No Link, no ostrich, no afc, no anything. (13.22@104 puts me at 393/638)


But hey, who am I to give info, I didn't build a 450whp dsm that runs on E85 or anything...

 

[gofer]

ALL OF YOU ARE KILLING ME! I know I don't type for hours explaining something, then a few months later see the same question with the same results... a bunch of mis-information about the subject with needless arguing.

Read post#17: 1g Fuel System Upgrade

I'm not familiar with DIYAutotune and have no idea what its capable of, hopefully someone thats used the program before can help you with doing fuel adjustments to run Ethanol. By looking at your current setup of 1000cc injectors and the Walbro 255 (rewire kit) all you'll need is an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and you'll be set to make the switch, that is if DIYAutotune can make fuel adjustments. Of course running -6AN from the tank and a metal element filter are a good idea, they aren't necessarily REQUIRED to convert.

 

[bastarddsm]

ALL OF YOU ARE KILLING ME! I know I don't type for hours explaining something, then a few months later see the same question with the same results... a bunch of mis-information about the subject with needless arguing.

Read post#17: 1g Fuel System Upgrade

Yeah, how is one jerk-off's forum post any more valid than any other jerk-offs post, mine included.

The simple act of switching to run E85 does not by itself require anything other than making the injectors inject 30-50% more fuel than they normally would. Its when you try to increase the amount of horsepower that you will produce that you start to need things like bigger injectors/pump/line... However this isn't any differen't than if you were running gasoline. Infact, running straight 93 requires damn near as much fuel as E85 when you try to start making big power.

Unless you hold a paid position in alternative fuels research, I suggest you try to refrain from acting like you are an expert.

 

[cantgo2fast]

Well by your definition im no expert and neither is gofer. However he happens to be making 437 hp on E85 so OP i would take his advice. I on the other hand am using a megasquirt 2 to run E85 on the yamaha R6 motor for my FSAE team.

I do not know all the capabilities of the MS3 but the MS2 will have no problem running E85 so long as you have the proper injectors, FPR and other mods. The only thing I think might hold you back is the fact that a knock sensor does not come standard with the MS2 ECU. We run a separate knock sensor (tunerXS pro) while we dyno tune it so we know its safe for competition.

The MS2 even has an autotune function, where you can specify the stoich AFR of the fuel you are using drive around and it will adjust fuel and timing automatically. It takes a while but will get you pretty close to the limit without needed to go to a dyno.

If you have not physically built the MS yet and gotten it to run, it is a pretty large undertaking. Its a little easier on a DSM because people have done it already whereas we are the only people using it on an R6 as far as I know. Its great for us now, however it took us two months to get it running. I would def recommend DSMLink. Been done a thousand times tons of resources on it, its not that much more expensive than the MS and you just have to plug it in basically.

 

[gofer]

Unless you hold a paid position in alternative fuels research, I suggest you try to refrain from acting like you are an expert.

I'm just trying to give the OP good solid information from personal experience, and from reading the above posts he hadn't gotten it.

 

[SpawnedX]

I disagree with you gofer.

I think everyone should go the whole 9 yards...sick of seeing people jackstand balling. Plus the STM kit with the "shadow" fittings is so freaking hot looking.

 

[gofer]

I disagree with you gofer.

I think everyone should go the whole 9 yards...sick of seeing people jackstand balling. Plus the STM kit with the "shadow" fittings is so freaking hot looking.

Jack-stand balling should be expected when you have a community of 12 to 21 year old turbo vehicles that have been abused the majority of their lives. I agree, some people don't do the research and poorly modify their car and it ends up on jack stands in the garage for awhile. This, however, wouldn't be the case just from a simple E85 conversion. Of course, every car is different, but I ran E85 on stock lines/filter for 6 months before I ended up upgrading the lines to -6AN and a metal element filter. I didn't do it because I was seeing high IDC's or a deteriorating OE fuel filter either, I did it because my car was "jack stand" balling from a wiring harness mishap. I noticed no more fuel to the motor (lower IDC's) by upgrading the lines nor did I notice the Ethanol eating my stock paper fuel filter. This might not be the case running 2150cc injectors, 40r turbo, and (2) Bosch fuel pumps to support 600+ hp to the wheels. With a setup like that of course you'd want all the fuel mods, but thats not the OP's situation and he's doing entry levels mods just to switch to E85 and see improved gains on his existing setup.

 

[SpawnedX]

Hey now, no one is saying you can't do it with the basics. I for one just want to point out who in the last 7 years of membership, has never been jackstand balling.

THIS GUY.

 

[cficare68]

You mean megasquirt? Megasquirt is a terrible idea unless you have a 420a or something else that has literally no other option.

Yes I have a Megasquirt. I had plenty of friends that have run Megasquirts over the years in their cars and I have had no problems what so ever. The only complaint was building them.

e85 is 40% to 50% thicker than gasoline so it requires 40%to 50% at least larger injectors. The stoichiometric afr for e85 is 9.76:1 and gasoline is 14.7:1 so you need to set your injector dead times accordingly as well as global fuel values to compensate for this change. if u have it availabe in your area id suggest converting its the best thing i ever did. it has a octane rating of 105 its cheaper then gas and heres the big plus the autoignition temp for e85 is 689 degrees where gasoline is only 475 degrees. u can run more boost more aggressive timing as well as leaner afr ( to increase gas mileage).I have yet to see knock on my car since i converted.

op you have everything you need to convert but im not sure about your tuning device.? if you can adjust your timing curve and fuel maps u should be ok. your gonna need a fpr tho. good luck.

Yes I am able to adjust my timing curve and fuel maps with Megasquirt. Even though I haven't yet I already planned on getting a AFRP just need to get some money together since I just dropped 3k for parts in the last couple of day for it.

Well by your definition im no expert and neither is gofer. However he happens to be making 437 hp on E85 so OP i would take his advice. I on the other hand am using a megasquirt 2 to run E85 on the yamaha R6 motor for my FSAE team.

I do not know all the capabilities of the MS3 but the MS2 will have no problem running E85 so long as you have the proper injectors, FPR and other mods. The only thing I think might hold you back is the fact that a knock sensor does not come standard with the MS2 ECU. We run a separate knock sensor (tunerXS pro) while we dyno tune it so we know its safe for competition.

The MS2 even has an autotune function, where you can specify the stoich AFR of the fuel you are using drive around and it will adjust fuel and timing automatically. It takes a while but will get you pretty close to the limit without needed to go to a dyno.

If you have not physically built the MS yet and gotten it to run, it is a pretty large undertaking. Its a little easier on a DSM because people have done it already whereas we are the only people using it on an R6 as far as I know. Its great for us now, however it took us two months to get it running. I would def recommend DSMLink. Been done a thousand times tons of resources on it, its not that much more expensive than the MS and you just have to plug it in basically.

The MS3 can do everything the MS2 can and a few additional things. Its been a while since I looked at the book for the Megasquirt but I do believe it does have the ability to adjust the knock sensor on the MS3. I'm not sure about the R6 but DIYAutotune does have a base map that I can download for the 4g63 ecu to get you started. Plus like I said in a previous post I have people that have experience with Megasquirt that can teach me to do it where DSMLink I did not.

ALL OF YOU ARE KILLING ME! I know I don't type for hours explaining something, then a few months later see the same question with the same results... a bunch of mis-information about the subject with needless arguing.

Read post#17: 1g Fuel System Upgrade

I'm not familiar with DIYAutotune and have no idea what its capable of, hopefully someone thats used the program before can help you with doing fuel adjustments to run Ethanol. By looking at your current setup of 1000cc injectors and the Walbro 255 (rewire kit) all you'll need is an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and you'll be set to make the switch, that is if DIYAutotune can make fuel adjustments. Of course running -6AN from the tank and a metal element filter are a good idea, they aren't necessarily REQUIRED to convert.

Thanks gofer. I did not happen to see that link when I was searching.

I am sorry I didn't realize that this question was going to start an all out battle. I just want to see where I needed to go from here.

I disagree with you gofer.

I think everyone should go the whole 9 yards...sick of seeing people jackstand balling. Plus the STM kit with the "shadow" fittings is so freaking hot looking.

I agree with you. I you are going to do it, then do it right the first time, its cheaper than having to go back and do it a second time.

Right now with my current setup I am going to try to hit between 300 to 350hp. With the way I am building my engine I am sure that it will handle more, however I also know that I am running a tranny with 125k on and that to much on it is going to require a rebuild. I plan on later in the year have TRE do a stage 4 build on it and upgrade my stage 1 Exedy clutch (came with my car) to an ACT 2600. I eventually will eventually upgrade because ultimately I want to be around 550 to 600hp. But to do that I am going to need to be running something bugger than a 20g turbo. So right now I am going to focus on getting an AFRP and a Fuel Lab Fuel Filter w/ a metal filter. I appreciate all the assistance that you all have offered me today.

 

[MY1GDSM]

I never can understand People sometimes All the E85 thread are like this anymore...

Swawned just wondering how is E85 not available to you ? Is their not like 2-3 stations with in 20min in your area?...and another 2-3 in about a 50mile range

FYI The Op only has 2 in the area an about 200 mile drive to the next around him

Anyway...

I don't see you even Really needing to swap to E85 to get to your current goals your mods list could use a few thing that you didn't list or maybe they aren't listed.

Also from what I see your going to be upgrading some things Not E85 related to support either of those kinds of power levers... your kinda counting eggs before they hatch...


Yes, down the road But as of now not really...

Also the way all the e85 threads are going these day I would suggest either to try to keep your question in a current thread or search and use the information from some of the ones on here already and as a general rule Question all of the info(literally)that's not from first hand experience seems most the people around here read a thread or few comments Or "know" a guy and think they are resident experts all of a sudden... Ever notice how things in Reuters are never quite right?

Not hating people it's just the truth...

Not that it has anything to do with experience or knowledge But,
FYI... My car doesn't sit on jack Stands

 

[crazycooter]

I wanna run E85 with a 125 shot of N2O with speed density!!!

 

[SpawnedX]

Closest E85 station is listed as an hour away from me.

 

[cficare68]

I never can understand People sometimes All the E85 thread are like this anymore...

Swawned just wondering how is E85 not available to you ? Is their not like 2-3 stations with in 20min in your area?...and another 2-3 in about a 50mile range

FYI The Op only has 2 in the area an about 200 mile drive to the next around him

Anyway...

I don't see you even Really needing to swap to E85 to get to your current goals your mods list could use a few thing that you didn't list or maybe they aren't listed.

Also from what I see your going to be upgrading some things Not E85 related to support either of those kinds of power levers... your kinda counting eggs before they hatch...

Yes, down the road But as of now not really...

Also the way all the e85 threads are going these day I would suggest either to try to keep your question in a current thread or search and use the information from some of the ones on here already and as a general rule Question all of the info(literally)that's not from first hand experience seems most the people around here read a thread or few comments Or "know" a guy and think they are resident experts all of a sudden... Ever notice how things in Reuters are never quite right?

Not hating people it's just the truth...

Not that it has anything to do with experience or knowledge But,
FYI... My car doesn't sit on jack Stands

Getting the car setup to run E-85 is the next thing that I have on my project list. In the last 2 days I have ordered additional items for my car that is not listing in my mods list yet. Actually thanks for reminding me cause i need to do so. What I have now that is not listed is as follows:

-2.3 Stroker Kit
8.5:1 Wiseco Stroker Pistons
Forged Eagle H-Beam Rods
Eagle Forged 100mm Crank

-AEM Tru Time Cam Gears

-ARP Head Studs

-Cometic Head Gasket

-DSM Graveyard Stage 3 Cylinder Head
1mm Over Manley Stainless Steal Valves
Manley Ti Springs and Retainers
Stage 2 Port Job

-Dsm Graveyard 274 Cams

-Gates Racing Timing Belt

-Venom Sheet Metal Intake Manifold (Which is also being ported to match the head)

-Coil on Plug