Alternative Fuel E85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Beginner) [MERGED]

[311GSX]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR BEGINNER E85 QUESTIONS, FOR TUNERS THAT HAVE NEVER HEARD OF RUNNING IT OR HAVEN'T RESEARCHED IT YET. THE ADVANCED E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THE MORE ADVANCED QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/372386-alternative-fuel-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-e70-advanced-merged.html

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE BASIC E85 INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE JUST GETTING THEIR NOSE WET AND ARE UNSURE OF WHAT E85 IS.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

Has anyone tryed running E85 in their dsm? Their is a station in my area that sells it and it's not much more than regular gas. It is 85% ethanol and 15% gas and is 110 octane . It could be a cheap alternative to race gas.

 

[ziggo0]

Any hints about why idle smells horridly rich? My idle fuel trim is about -3, idle around 950, wb shows 14ish. I'm thinking my wb is a point off or something, then again why would my idle trim be close to 0?

 

[JusMX141]

Where are you headed to get it tuned?

I set him up with Ricky (dacowgod) near Morgantown. Supposedly everything worked out great but one of Nick's couplers kept blowing off with boost in excess of 20psi, so Ricky's doing some remote-tuning once he gets the coupler situation repaired.

 

[4gfun]

E-85 finally hit my area. I am currently running 22 psi on a B16G on 93 pump gas.

I have been reading up on this stuff for years but kind of put it aside because it wasn't a reality for me.

Unfortunately I am now running FIC 650s on a 190 fuel pump...but I can always sell them and wait for the other stuff to come since my car is not a DD.

So the questions are:

1) What is the minimum fuel pump size I need to upgrade to and do I really need to get a regulator for it?

2) What is the minimum injector size I need to upgrade to?

3) What is the max boost you all have been able to run with E85 and a B16g?

I am running Tunerpro so I can compensate for the tune.

Thanks!

 

[richard33]

E-85 finally hit my area. I am currently running 22 psi on a B16G on 93 pump gas.

I have been reading up on this stuff for years but kind of put it aside because it wasn't a reality for me.

Unfortunately I am now running FIC 650s on a 190 fuel pump...but I can always sell them and wait for the other stuff to come since my car is not a DD.

So the questions are:

1) What is the minimum fuel pump size I need to upgrade to and do I really need to get a regulator for it walbro 255. Yes you need a regulator

2) What is the minimum injector size I need to upgrade to? get 1000s

3) What is the max boost you all have been able to run with E85 and a B16g? Whatever the turbo will make.

I am running Tunerpro so I can compensate for the tune.

Thanks!

Don't try to go cheap or cut corners with your fuel setup. You will also need a new fuel filter too.

 

[4gfun]

Thanks, based on those answers let me expand a little bit. I guess my injector and fuel pump size will depend on how much boost I want to push on the B16g.

How much boost is the upper end of the B16g on E85 based on some of the experiences here is what I should be asking at this point.

Also, will a stock fuel filter suffice?

Don't try to go cheap or cut corners with your fuel setup. You will also need a new fuel filter too.

 

[Calan]

You need to stop thinking in terms of how much boost you can run, and think instead about a horsepower goal. The amount of boost you end up at is dependent on 213678912639123 things, and is pretty much meaningless unless you just want to brag to your friends about how much boost you are running.

 

[arrowhead]

What do you use your car for by what you have now it sounds as a DD.

 

[skatershawn]

You need to see how many lbs/min per psi your 16g will run, then factor in how much fuel is needed at that amount of air flow (lbs/min.)

Example:

B16g Flows 572cfm at 60% efficiency at 25psi. That's roughly 40lbs/min of air flow!
You would need to get a fuel system that can keep up with that demand FACTORING in the compensation you need to run E85!!

660's would be pushing the injectors if running with E85 at 22psi, imo, and again, imo, the 190lph fuel pump needs a rewire kit or upgrade to 255(recommended)!!

ON E85: (Base fuel pressure of 43.5psi)
660cc at 100% IDC is ~36.89 lbs/min and at 80% IDC is ~29.51 lbs/min

850cc at 100% IDC is ~47.51 lbs/min and at 80% IDC is ~38.01 lbs/min

So if you want to safely run e85, i would suggest going with nothing smaller than 850cc's if you want to run 25psi-30psi on the 16g!!

 

[Tigerhorns]

I agree with Calan, and Richard. you need atleast a 255, and 880s, but i would go bigger then 880s.

 

[4gfun]

Lol, these are your injectors I am still running by the way! Still, I disagree in terms of focusing on how much boost the turbo can run. I like to tune boost first, then timing, then fuel. I know you know your stuff, but it seems like there is more than one opinion on tuning order and my primary focus is on boost. I did plenty of reading when tuning my car for boost and I logically deducted that 21-22 psi would be a good boost number to tune for on pump gas. Why can't I draw a similar conclusion with E85? I don't want to reivent the wheel. I want to see who runs what and how succesful they have been.

You need to stop thinking in terms of how much boost you can run, and think instead about a horsepower goal. The amount of boost you end up at is dependent on 213678912639123 things, and is pretty much meaningless unless you just want to brag to your friends about how much boost you are running.

 

[donniekak]

Get a 255 pump, 1000cc injectors, and max out the 16g. You can pull the wastegate line if you want on that setup. It's a very fun street setup.

 

[4gfun]

Thanks for the baseline on the injectors and fuel everyone else. That really helped.

What about the boost aspect? Upper 20's - 30 psi sound crazy. I thought the b16g was useless above 22 psi but now that doesn't seem the case. It's amazing how things change over the years as we find new things out.

What is a target max efficiency on a turbo?

Lol donniekak, thanks again. You are on the more agressive side like me.

You posted just before I got done with my second post.

Any thoughts on maxing out the b16g on E85?

Get a 255 pump, 1000cc injectors, and max out the 16g. You can pull the wastegate line if you want on that setup. It's a very fun street setup.

 

[skatershawn]

People are pushing the 16g's to new levels, but a 16g is starting to become inefficient at around ~25psi, the e85 is good because it will cool down the temps and reduce knock that may occur while running outside of the 16g's efficiency range!

In a way, this is the same reason why(that is the amount of boost that is ran) people choose to run meth injection, but methanol cools the air before it enters the combustion chamber and raises the octane level like ethanol does! And a good working intercooler will help as well!

All of these new advances to tuning have helped people push the limits on the 16g, some reasons why people can run 30psi+ on a e16g, is due to the fact of larger injectors for fuel, FMIC to cool the charged air, e85 for the octane level and cooling properties and same goes for Methanol as it does for Ethanol.

I, personally, would max the turbo(b16g) before deciding on going bigger, but i would also like to do this safely!
To run e85 i would recommend, because this is what i wanted to do, getting a wally 255 and 1000cc injectors and turn the boost up too 30psi and tune for knock!

 

[LiquidX]

You can pump a lot more boost through the turbo than what is efficient. Only add until you are no longer gaining a significant increase in power. Once you are at the efficiency threshold then you will just be pumping hot air and shortening the turbos life.

 

[ColtiXim]

Dont use the OEM fuel filter or aftermarket based on paper element with E85.

Injector choice table on E85

B16G flow map

 

[SonySlave]

Here is a simple setup and explanations that will allow you to max out that B16G (whatever boost you want):

- Walbro 255HP - Good to about 450-500whp on E-85 and it's cheap
- Fuel Pump re-wire - Give maximum voltage to the pump and keeps the fuel flow as linear as possible. Cheap mod.
- 1000cc Injectors - Easy to find and will give you the room needed to max out the 16G
- Stock fuel filter - Cheap and works perfectly well running E-85. I ran the OEM fuel filter for a years running E-85. I did find that once I started running E-85, I needed to change the filter the first time within a couple thousand miles, but after I changed it, it always worked very well.
- Stock FPR - Don't let people convince you that you're going to overrun your stock FPR running a 255 fuel pump. It's pure nonsense. Again, I ran mine as a daily driver for a very long time and never once had idle, cruise, or WOT issues due to "overrun".

Lucas English from English Racing has gone 10.1 with an HTA68 turbo and 9.9 with a new HTAGreen turbo running with a very similar fuel setup! Only difference was that with the HTA68 he was running a 2nd Walbro due to a lack of fuel with one pump and with the Green, he ran 1650cc injectors, again for more room to work. Two very small turbos making power well beyond their "efficiency". Too many armchair racers that only read forums to get their facts and have never run the times or numbers. Here are the threads I just mentioned. Does anyone notice an AFPR anywhere? An aftermarket fuel filter? Hmmm...

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/362881-10-3-fp68-hta-16g.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/383281-9-9-1-4mi-fp-green-hta.html

 

[4gfun]

Wow, thanks all!

This has summed it up pretty quickly for me!

Thank you

 

[ColtiXim]

If you want keep a paper fuel filter like OEM please read this simple Google seek

I agree with the stock FPR, but with a 15/20 years car the FPR is tired and need to be new in my mind.
With a 255 HP or another high performance pump, a AFPR is an good idea and safe ...

 

[skatershawn]

There is something called knowledge, and something called experience! You can use knowledge when you want to get your experience, i feel that is the safest way to go! You can't tell me English racing didn't read up on anything before he decided to try and run 10's! You can, but i highly recommend you not to, try to get the experience with out the knowledge but then you would most likely end up like most young "ricers" with blown motors, wondering what happened!
Just because i read and learn, doesn't mean i don't have experience, and doesn't mean i don't know what I'm talking about!

Sorry i don't have numbers to post up and show, but that isn't everything! Just like post counts have no meaning!
Im not trying to argue with anyone, just responding to the comment to us "armchair racers" and how we don't know anything!!

And I never said to change fuel filter, never said to get a AFPR, never said to get new fuel lines!
I also believe the OP wants this to be a DD as well! Was the english racing 1g a DD, if so mad props!

Now OP what exactly are you goals and plans for your car?

 

[norcal_drifter]

im running e85 with 950cc injectors, rewired 250walbro, stock fpr, replaced my fuel filter with another oem one after 4 tanks of e85, and i was boosting my small 16g anywhere between 27-30psi no spikes just constant boost but a week ago i think it sucked something in cause my turbo went to shit and fins broke off( happens when you live in a shitty area with an open turbo!) so in about a week ill be running the same set up but hopefully with a 20g!.. good luck man e85 is plenty fun!

 

[SonySlave]

There is something called knowledge, and something called experience! You can use knowledge when you want to get your experience, i feel that is the safest way to go! You can't tell me English racing didn't read up on anything before he decided to try and run 10's! You can, but i highly recommend you not to, try to get the experience with out the knowledge but then you would most likely end up like most young "ricers" with blown motors, wondering what happened!
Just because i read and learn, doesn't mean i don't have experience, and doesn't mean i don't know what I'm talking about!

Sorry i don't have numbers to post up and show, but that isn't everything! Just like post counts have no meaning!
Im not trying to argue with anyone, just responding to the comment to us "armchair racers" and how we don't know anything!!

And I never said to change fuel filter, never said to get a AFPR, never said to get new fuel lines!
I also believe the OP wants this to be a DD as well! Was the english racing 1g a DD, if so mad props!

Now OP what exactly are you goals and plans for your car?

Wow, way to take what I said so personally. Did I quote you and start bashing you? I wasn't even talking to you!

I think the OP has heard what he needs to hear and now it's up to him to decide what to do.

 

[4gfun]

Thanks, again this is not my DD in any way. My DD is a 93 Escort GT. Car is dual purpose, driven once per week or 2 to keep it fresh. Summer only tires in the summer, and winter only tires in the winter. It is my get my home car in the winter with the dedicated snow tires. Otherwise I figure the less I drive it, the less I can break it.

There is something called knowledge, and something called experience! You can use knowledge when you want to get your experience, i feel that is the safest way to go! You can't tell me English racing didn't read up on anything before he decided to try and run 10's! You can, but i highly recommend you not to, try to get the experience with out the knowledge but then you would most likely end up like most young "ricers" with blown motors, wondering what happened!
Just because i read and learn, doesn't mean i don't have experience, and doesn't mean i don't know what I'm talking about!

Sorry i don't have numbers to post up and show, but that isn't everything! Just like post counts have no meaning!
Im not trying to argue with anyone, just responding to the comment to us "armchair racers" and how we don't know anything!!

And I never said to change fuel filter, never said to get a AFPR, never said to get new fuel lines!
I also believe the OP wants this to be a DD as well! Was the english racing 1g a DD, if so mad props!

Now OP what exactly are you goals and plans for your car?

All, thank you very much for the overwhelming wealth of information!

 

[MY1GDSM]

I, personally, would max the turbo(b16g) before deciding on going bigger, but i would also like to do this safely!
To run e85 i would recommend, because this is what i wanted to do, getting a wally 255 and 1000cc injectors and turn the boost up too 30psi and tune for knock!

Tuning for knock on E85 would be an unwise decision... You could go far beyond MBT adding timing or leaning it out an lift your head before you picked up Knock...

 

[MrBoxx]

Bear in mind, not all E85 stations have pumps that pump out pure E85 at all times. Here in Michigan, we only get real E"85" for about 3-4 months. In Spring, Fall, and Winter we get something more akin to E70. In between tank fillups in the spring and fall months, the mix may be anywhere between 70 and 85 percent alcohol. That's going to affect your tune and your air/octane mixture. Read: if you're tuned for 85% alcohol and you're getting E72 out of the pump, you're going to run lean. Your datalogger is going to be crucial for monitoring your knock and O2 values. Wideband in the car now? Get one.

I have three friends with Evos who have circumvented Michigan's shifting E85 content. One has created his own mad scientist chemistry lab in his basement. He buys E100 in barrels and mixes it with whatever comes out of the E85 pump, then has the equipment to test it to make pure E85. Then, the other two guys have ECU systems which utilize the General Motors ethanol content sensors from the flex-fuel vehicles to monitor the ethanol content of whatever is flowing through the fuel lines. The one guy's ECU system actually tunes on the fly automatically for whatever E-rating the fuel has. THAT is very cool. Obviously something like that is a pretty big investment for a DSM that you might only drive once or twice a week, but it takes the guesswork out of your tune.

 

[Gasolinebaptism]

So I just put in my application to Pacific Pride, which happens to be the only place with 50 miles to have E85.
I have a wlly 255 feeding a bosch 044 pump. So getting plenty of fuel to rail. I'm thinking the bottleneck will be the 1000cc injectors. Any idea how much power these will be able to support? I'd imagine it'd be nice to have 1600cc injectors, especially considering my turbo can easily support 700 horse.
Sorry to be off topic here, but the more people running E85, the more knowledge.