Alternative Fuel E85 E-85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Advanced) [MERGED]

[TranceNRG]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR ADVANCED E85 QUESTIONS, NOT "IS IT POSSIBLE?" THE BEGINNER E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THOSE TYPES OF QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/59040-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-beginner-merged-5-24-8-a.html?highlight=E85+MERGED

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE SERIOUSLY WANTING TO DO THE CONVERSION OR HAVE DONE IT AND HAVE MORE DETAILED QUESTIONS. Below is a quick Ethanol/E85 (Advanced) rundown before you start reading through the merged threads, maybe this will answer you question a bit sooner. To quickly navigate this thread for keywords use the "SEARCH THIS THREAD" tool located in the top right hand corner of this post.

THANKS,

GOFER

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The stock tank and fuel lines will work fine running E85 and you don't have to change timing on your car when you convert to E85. The smallest pump you'll want to run is a Walbro 255 (rewired), its convenient because it drops right in with a cheap install kit and its a bit cheaper then a Bosch. When you upgrade to such a high flowing fuel pump you'll also need to grab a adjustable fuel pressure regulator (AFPR) to keep everything in check. I also suggest (its not necessary) to upgrade to a FueLab fuel filter with a 40 micron metal element, the Ethanol will eat the OE paper filter over time.

Depending on what time of year it is or your location will determine what type of Ethanol you have available at the pump. Gas stations receive E100 (100% Ethanol) year round and then blend it with 87 octane gasoline and depending on the blend (E85 or E70) it will change the ethanol content rating, octane, and specific gravity of the fuel itself. The typical blends are summer (E85) and winter (E70) which is the MINIMUM amount of ethanol blended with gasoline.

Winter blend (E70)- 70% E100 (113oct) and 30% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 105.
Summer blend (E85)- 85% E100 (113oct) and 15% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 109.​

FINDING OUT WHAT INJECTORS YOU NEED
Since the chemical makeup of ethanol is different you must account for it in your injectors flow rating. To do so you use the following equation by inputing the injectors flow rated on gas multiplied by 0.67. For example, I'll use 750cc injectors and estimate the flow capabilities of them running E85.

750 x 0.67 = 502.5​

After you make the switch to E85 your 750cc injectors will flow 502cc which you'd find out isn't even enough to support the airflow of a 16g turbo.

For you mathematicians, you can also do the equation backwards if you know what size of injectors you would need for you turbo setup on pump gas. For example, a 20g turbos max airflow is 52 lbs/min so on pump gas you would need 880cc injectors to support it.

"pump rated injector flow" x 0.67 = 880
"pump rated injector flow" = 880 / 0.67
"pump rated injector flow" = 1313cc​

After doing the above equation you find that a 1300cc injector will flow about 880cc which is what you want to support a 20g, so before you convert to E85 you need to get 1300cc injectors!​

Like the title says, what did you use to convert to E85?

 

[daplatano91]

Alot of people choose to change their oil more often when running e85 because there is more chance of contaminants getting into the oil when running such a raw fuel. Its not necessarily required but I would keep an eye on the condition of the oil especially if you will be running the car hard on the track on a daily basis. But that is the case with racing on any other fuel as well.

 

[gofer]

Alot of people choose to change their oil more often when running e85 because there is more chance of contaminants getting into the oil when running such a raw fuel.

I'd like to hear these people come in here and give their own experiences about E85 contaminants getting into their oil, unless you've got proof of information or personal experience that can show this please don't post hearsay.

I can only speak from personal experience but this has never been an issue and my car gets both track and DD duties.

 

[daplatano91]

Great to have someone clarify that for me. That was one of my issues I was weighing against for converting my car.

 

[97-gst]

I tuned my car for 9.5 air fuel ratio instead of 14.7, that's basically all that I've done, when I get on the gas and go WOT it sputters as soon as it starts hitting boost... its not a boost leakeither, its hitting about 10.3 at WOT when it sputters... any suggestions? Should I adjustt fuel pressure?

 

[hypergenesis]

I tuned my car for 9.5 air fuel ratio instead of 14.7, that's basically all that I've done, when I get on the gas and go WOT it sputters as soon as it starts hitting boost... its not a boost leakeither, its hitting about 10.3 at WOT when it sputters... any suggestions? Should I adjustt fuel pressure?

I might be really off but that could be spark plugs or wires. Yet again I might be way off since this is for e85 but my car stuttered the same way when it started boosting and it was my spark plugs. Yet again could be way off

 

[Gstclipse69]

Definitely check out the plugs. E-85 likes a hotter plug rather than a cold. I would stick with the ngk 7's and gap them tighter than stock. Try it at .026 or .024

 

[talonDSMerr]

10.3 is much too rich for e85. You need to lean it out. What you're reading is the value given by a gasoline wideband sensor. These are technically just lambda sensors that read stoichiometry but spit out a value based on what it is programmed to measure. All wideband sensors read a ratio of actual AFR over stoichiometric AFR. For example:

Gasoline has a stoichiometry of around 14.7. When you run rich, the actual AFR is lower than 14.7. The wideband reads, for example, 11.5/14.7 = 0.78. This number is also known as the equivalence ratio. Wideband sensors that are programmed for reading gasoline takes this number and projects it onto a gasoline scale, which has a stoichiometry of 14.7. This is what it does:

Read 0.78 equivalence ratio --> convert 0.78 to gas scale --> equivalence ratio * stoichiometry of gasoline --> 0.78*14.7 = 11.5.

It then displays 11.5 as the actual AFR.

When you start running e85, which has a stoichiometry of around 9.7, the gasoline wideband sensor still measures equivalence ratio, but instead of converting to an e85 scale, it converts it to the gasoline scale. Thus, you tune in the same manner, looking for 14.7 AFR displayed on the wideband gauge for idle and cruise, and 11-12.5 AFR for WOT. In reality, when the wideband gauge displays 12.5, the ACTUAL AFR is 8.25 for e85, even though the gauge displays something else. This is because it's programmed to read gasoline (unless you have an e85 wideband sensor).

Tune the same as you would with gasoline, but with e85, you can lean it out a bit more at WOT. Tune for 12-12.5 AFR at WOT and you'll be happy!

If this confuses you, let me know, I'll try to explain again.

 

[Absit]

I tuned my car for 9.5 air fuel ratio instead of 14.7, that's basically all that I've done, when I get on the gas and go WOT it sputters as soon as it starts hitting boost... its not a boost leakeither, its hitting about 10.3 at WOT when it sputters... any suggestions? Should I adjustt fuel pressure?

You tuned for 9.5:1 on GAS settings or E85 settings? Don't muck about with converting all of your displays to E85, just use the gas lambda conversions and you won't have to change your numbers much.

 

[Calan]

What Dennis (and others) said.

Once you get your global fuel set correctly, just tune like it's plain old pump gas, except you can shoot for a higher AFR at WOT (12.0:1 is safe, 12.5:1 is good power, 13.0:1 is doable in short duration but pushing the limit)

If you're running with a reading of 9.5:1 on your WB during WOT with E85, it's no wonder it's sputtering. You're literally drowning the engine in fuel. (An AFR of 9.5:1 is pig-rich even for pump gas).

I would also like to hear some first-hand testimony on the oil contamination issue. Anyone with a performance modded motor like ours should be changing the oil WAY before you could see a difference in oil contamination between the two fuels, especially with a properly working PCV system and proper tune.

With that said, you do need to check your injectors every so often, and run a tank of pump gas after every 3 or 4 tanks of E85. There are numerous cases of injectors developing a mysterious tar-like residue after constant E85 use (I just got bit with this myself after assuming I was immune to it). Just search the net for "E85 goo" and you should get plenty of hits on the subject.

 

[mopar_21]

The oil should be monitored when cold starting and first tuning an engine on E-85. If the ratio is rich at first the unburnt fuel dries the cylinder walls and can turn up in the oil. My drag Dakota is running E-85 (as will be my DSM) and when I first started it I had carb probs causing over fueling literally seizing my engine when attempting a restart, along with milked oil. E-85 is also hard to start on in the cold. I have two seperate systems allowing me to start on premium. Run cold spark plugs with high boost or extreme cylinder pressure, or predet will happen.

 

[MY1GDSM]

I'd like to hear these people come in here and give their own experiences about E85 contaminants getting into their oil,

I can only speak from personal experience but this has never been an issue.

Same goes for me, I have never had an issue with the oil being contaminated by any blend of Ethanol...

Also I believe the whole New line of standard GF-5 oils have even higher emulsion retention then the previous GF-4 oils ... I'm sure most of us here use oils that have even better properties the GF-4/GF-5 oil but in any event there's actually a new bench test that is included in GF-5. because of concerns of e85 not burning off completely from short trips in FFV's In this test (ASTM D7563)

a mixture of engine oil (80%), distilled water (10%) and E85 (10%) is "blended" in a Waring blender to form an emulsion. To pass the test, there can be no water separation after 24 hours at 0°C and at 25°C, and no additive dropout can occur when the emulsified oil is subsequently heated above 110°C.

Also there is no need for an plug cooler the bpr7's when running e85... Unless your a bit higher HP at least...

 

[Boug]

I almost came out of my seat when I heard a group of Honda guys talking about E85 eating through their fuel hoses. I had to quickly eliminate that kind of thinking. E85 is the poor man's fuel. I ran it with a bunch of timing with my EVO8 and now with my 1G.

 

[mopar_21]

Just because someone has never heard of such thing does not mean it exist. I work at a diesel shop and had my oil sent off from a different batch of oil other than the first tuning oil. The oil has come back twice with traces of E-85. Any fuel will contaminate oil but E-85 quickly takes lubrication away that is why it is more important to keep it out of the oil. The small amounts I tested were not suggesting a immediate oil change but letting me know the low lubricity of E-85 is in my oil, and just because oil can absorb materials doesn't mean you shouldn't change oil. Those properties are used for emissions and to prevent disasters in case something happens, such as a accidental rich start when tuning.

 

[empie1]

Just because someone has never heard of such thing does not mean it exist. I work at a diesel shop and had my oil sent off from a different batch of oil other than the first tuning oil. The oil has come back twice with traces of E-85. Any fuel will contaminate oil but E-85 quickly takes lubrication away that is why it is more important to keep it out of the oil. The small amounts I tested were not suggesting a immediate oil change but letting me know the low lubricity of E-85 is in my oil, and just because oil can absorb materials doesn't mean you shouldn't change oil. Those properties are used for emissions and to prevent disasters in case something happens, such as a accidental rich start when tuning.

Interesting.

 

[DSM_munky_man]

I will be converting over next tank. I will soon add to the oil debate cause I am due for a change soon after.

 

[Blast3r]

Just to add my small insight on E85. I was having major fuel pressure loss problems at high boost that I could not track down for the life of me, eventually I pulled the fuel filter off and it was completely gummed up with an awful e85 residue, once cleaned the car ran perfect again.
As far as eating the fuel line and gummed injectors, I have noticed no such problems, BUT..... I did notice that plastic clips on the fuel pumps(in tank) were pitted(similar to aluminum pits), almost as if they had been eaten away.
I will for sure continue to use e85 though, its pretty amazing at the difference it makes in the car for only a few small drawbacks.

 

[Calan]

For those that are curious, here's what the E85 "goo" looks like. This is a pic of my FIC Bluemax injectors when I pulled them a few months ago:

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Oddly enough, injector #2 showed very little build-up, even though that cylinder was obviously getting fuel and firing normally otherwise (I still have no explanation for this).

I ran E85 for over a year and never saw this problem at all. It was widely believed to be a regional issue and due to certain additives in some E85 blends. Then all of a sudden, it mysteriously appeared last fall.

The recommended "fix" is to run a tank of straight gas every now and then, which will dissolve/prevent any build-up of this mysterious goo. (I believe Stabile has a new product specifically for ethanol blends, which I may try once the car goes back together in a few weeks).

There is a pretty good discussion on the subject here for those that are interested.

 

[Devilman]

Also there is no need for an plug cooler the bpr7's when running e85...[/QUOTE]

please tell me why you think this because you have definetly never used e85 then

e85 burns colder and is more dention resistant but also needs more timing
to burn efficiently

with the higher boost and more timing being ran with e85 the use of hotter plugs is still needed

i run br9es in a 20g car and almost need 10s on hot track days, but i guess i just don't know what i'm talking about right?

 

[Bluefire16]

Ive been thinking about going E85, but was curious about gas mileage? My dsm is my DD, so not sure if i want to give up the gas mileage. But when E85 is only 2.68 a gallon and its 3.70 for 93lead, im considering switching.

I currently get about 19-21mpg with 93.... what numbers you guys seeing on E85?

This is gonna help me decide how big of injectors to go with...

 

[DSM_munky_man]

Mileage goes down since you have to use more fuel. Innate no numbers but expect tonlose a few mpg

 

[Calan]

Ive been thinking about going E85, but was curious about gas mileage? My dsm is my DD, so not sure if i want to give up the gas mileage. But when E85 is only 2.68 a gallon and its 3.70 for 93lead, im considering switching.

I currently get about 19-21mpg with 93.... what numbers you guys seeing on E85?

This is gonna help me decide how big of injectors to go with...

On paper, you'll get 25-35% less MPG with E85 than with pump gas. In reality, it's more like 50%, since the whole point of running E85 is so you can up the boost and mash the go pedal without knocking.

*****

As for the plug temps, it's all over the map. Some people seem to have good results by running cooler plugs like you would in a high-boost pump gas situation. I personally see a little better performance with something like a BR7ES, or maybe a BR8ES. I also prefer the non-projected tip plugs as they seem to be a little less prone to spark blowout at 30 psi and higher boost levels. (Although I still seem to fight blowout no matter what; hopefully the new ignition I'm building will fix that).

 

[Boug]

For those that are curious, here's what the E85 "goo" looks like. Curiously enough, injector #2 showed very little build-up, even though that cylinder was obviously getting fuel and firing normally otherwise (I still have no explanation for this).

I ran E85 for over a year and never saw this problem at all. It was widely believed to be a regional issue and due to certain additives in some E85 blends. Then all of a sudden, it mysteriously appeared last fall.

The recommended "fix" is to run a tank of straight gas every now and then, which will dissolve/prevent any build-up of this mysterious goo. (I believe Stabile has a new product specifically for ethanol blends, which I may try once the car goes back together in a few weeks).

There is a pretty good discussion on the subject here for those that are interested.

Something very similar was going on in central Texas with the E85 fluctuating between E70-E85 and it was hit-or-miss. One of the things done to get around it was to purchase an E85 analyzer to ensure that you were getting good quality fuel. On the running a straight tank of gas option, you have to stress the fact that if this is done not to get on the car at all as your tune does not compensate for the different fuel type.

 

[Calan]

On the running a straight tank of gas option, you have to stress the fact that if this is done not to get on the car at all as your tune does not compensate for the different fuel type.

Unless you are running a switchable set of alternate AFR and timing maps.

 

[Boug]

Unless you are running a switchable set of alternate AFR and timing maps.

Being a former EVO guy and familiar with what it offered, what is offered for DSMs? Thanks.

 

[Calan]

Being a former EVO guy and familiar with what it offered, what is offered for DSMs? Thanks.

Depends on what you use to tune with. I use ECMLink, which allows you to use the factory low octane maps as alternates, and has multiple ways of allowing you to switch to them or trigger them under various conditions.

The most common approach is to simulate the idle switch with the TPS, and wire that now-unused ECU input to a simple toggle switch.