Alternative Fuel E85 E-85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Advanced) [MERGED]

[TranceNRG]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR ADVANCED E85 QUESTIONS, NOT "IS IT POSSIBLE?" THE BEGINNER E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THOSE TYPES OF QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/59040-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-beginner-merged-5-24-8-a.html?highlight=E85+MERGED

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE SERIOUSLY WANTING TO DO THE CONVERSION OR HAVE DONE IT AND HAVE MORE DETAILED QUESTIONS. Below is a quick Ethanol/E85 (Advanced) rundown before you start reading through the merged threads, maybe this will answer you question a bit sooner. To quickly navigate this thread for keywords use the "SEARCH THIS THREAD" tool located in the top right hand corner of this post.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

The stock tank and fuel lines will work fine running E85 and you don't have to change timing on your car when you convert to E85. The smallest pump you'll want to run is a Walbro 255 (rewired), its convenient because it drops right in with a cheap install kit and its a bit cheaper then a Bosch. When you upgrade to such a high flowing fuel pump you'll also need to grab a adjustable fuel pressure regulator (AFPR) to keep everything in check. I also suggest (its not necessary) to upgrade to a FueLab fuel filter with a 40 micron metal element, the Ethanol will eat the OE paper filter over time.

Depending on what time of year it is or your location will determine what type of Ethanol you have available at the pump. Gas stations receive E100 (100% Ethanol) year round and then blend it with 87 octane gasoline and depending on the blend (E85 or E70) it will change the ethanol content rating, octane, and specific gravity of the fuel itself. The typical blends are summer (E85) and winter (E70) which is the MINIMUM amount of ethanol blended with gasoline.

Winter blend (E70)- 70% E100 (113oct) and 30% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 105.
Summer blend (E85)- 85% E100 (113oct) and 15% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 109.​

FINDING OUT WHAT INJECTORS YOU NEED
Since the chemical makeup of ethanol is different you must account for it in your injectors flow rating. To do so you use the following equation by inputing the injectors flow rated on gas multiplied by 0.67. For example, I'll use 750cc injectors and estimate the flow capabilities of them running E85.

750 x 0.67 = 502.5​

After you make the switch to E85 your 750cc injectors will flow 502cc which you'd find out isn't even enough to support the airflow of a 16g turbo.

For you mathematicians, you can also do the equation backwards if you know what size of injectors you would need for you turbo setup on pump gas. For example, a 20g turbos max airflow is 52 lbs/min so on pump gas you would need 880cc injectors to support it.

"pump rated injector flow" x 0.67 = 880
"pump rated injector flow" = 880 / 0.67
"pump rated injector flow" = 1313cc​

After doing the above equation you find that a 1300cc injector will flow about 880cc which is what you want to support a 20g, so before you convert to E85 you need to get 1300cc injectors!​

Like the title says, what did you use to convert to E85?

 

[Bluefire16]

So relatively speaking, if one were to run e85 with 660s injectors (considering thats about stock 450s)

660*.67=442.2

You would be able to run more boost than say the 18psi i was putting down with my small 16g on 93?

How big of a pump do you need? I have a evo8 and will prob upgrade down the road regardless, but im not sure of my plans anymore.

 

[arturorz]

When you start running e85, which has a stoichiometry of around 9.7, the gasoline wideband sensor still measures equivalence ratio, but instead of converting to an e85 scale, it converts it to the gasoline scale. Thus, you tune in the same manner, looking for 14.7 AFR displayed on the wideband gauge for idle and cruise, and 11-12.5 AFR for WOT. In reality, when the wideband gauge displays 12.5, the ACTUAL AFR is 8.25 for e85, even though the gauge displays something else. This is because it's programmed to read gasoline (unless you have an e85 wideband sensor).

If you have an LC-1 wideband, Innovate Motorsports has 2 Gauges that you can purchase, that are programmable to display accurate E-85 readings.
You can use an MTX-L Gauge, or you can use an XD-16 Gauge.

Both Gauges are programmable to display E-85 readings.


EDIT: I just got off the phone with Innovate Motorsports. I'm also switching to E-85 soon. So, according to Innovate Motorsports, the MTX-L Gauge, REPLACES your LC-1.

I have an LC-1 that I bought a while back (with NO gauge). I was thinking about buying a gauge that would display accurate E-85 readings, but the MTX-L Gauge already come with an o2 Sensor and it does NOT required an LC-1.

 

[gofer]

So relatively speaking, if one were to run e85 with 660s injectors (considering thats about stock 450s)

660*.67=442.2

You would be able to run more boost than say the 18psi i was putting down with my small 16g on 93?

How big of a pump do you need? I have a evo8 and will prob upgrade down the road regardless, but im not sure of my plans anymore.

Considering the stock injectors are 450's you wouldn't be able to run more than a t25 at stock boost levels with 660's on E85 and the smallest pump I recommend for E85 users is the Evo IX pump.

 

[Calan]

So relatively speaking, if one were to run e85 with 660s injectors (considering thats about stock 450s)

660*.67=442.2

You would be able to run more boost than say the 18psi i was putting down with my small 16g on 93?

How big of a pump do you need? I have a evo8 and will prob upgrade down the road regardless, but im not sure of my plans anymore.

If you plan on running E85 and your tuning software can handle them, just go big on the injectors (1150's or higher) and be done with it. Using 660's won't get you very far on E85.

As for the pump, it depends on your setup; but a rewired Wally 255hp can take you pretty far. I was somewhere around 55lbs/min @ 28psi, and right at the limit of what my 255hp can deliver. I'm probably going to add another 255 in-tank and bigger supply/return lines when the turbo goes back on in a couple of weeks.

EDIT: Damn I type slow.

 

[Bluefire16]

Gotcha....thanks for the info. Im probably a year away from doing this if i ever feel like it. Right now im happy with a 20g around 15psi (its winter ).

I have put a decent amount on my build and now im looking to clean the car up and have it immaculate. I want the cleanest 2g around.

And hell, i might move back to New Zealand in 2 years so not sure how much i want to put into the car now.

 

[Boug]

Depends on what you use to tune with. I use ECMLink, which allows you to use the factory low octane maps as alternates, and has multiple ways of allowing you to switch to them or trigger them under various conditions. The most common approach is to simulate the idle switch with the TPS, and wire that now-unused ECU input to a simple toggle switch.

I am currently running DSMap as my software of choice. The plan is to give it another year and then switch to the EVO8 ECU.

If you have an LC-1 wideband, Innovate Motorsports has 2 Gauges that you can purchase, that are programmable to display accurate E-85 readings.
You can use an MTX-L Gauge, or you can use an XD-16 Gauge. Both Gauges are programmable to display E-85 readings.

I appreciate the links. This is perfect.

 

[mopar_21]

E85 has slows detonation in one form (octane for simple terms) allowing advanced timing and higher cylinder pressures, but at the same time is more prone to ignite from heat, therefore in high compression situations a hot plug with advanced time will ignite the fuel prematurely causing predet.

 

[97-gst]

its still sputtering right before it starts to hit bost and just cuts out heres a log

 

[gofer]

I'm cleaning up this thread and I'm going to talk to the other Moderators about getting an E85 "Advanced" thread that we can start merging stuff to (like you posted above MY1GDSM). There is an E85 thread thats been considered merged but its old and had dated info in it which doesn't really help much.

Keep it on topic and continue helping the OP, if you want to discuss a E85 merge thread post it in the "site feedback" forum please. Thanks!

 

[MY1GDSM]

Will do!

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Good info! I drove my car to work today (even though its a nice day and I normally would have ridden my motorcycle) so that I can get rid of this last 1/8th of a tank of 91 octane gas and I'll be making the switch to E85 on the next fill up. Wish I had bought a bigger injector though. Theses 850's will work for my 14b but once I get my 20g I'll be buying injectors again.

 

[gofer]

Those 850's *cough* 750's *cough* will be just enough injector to keep up with the 33 lbs/min you're seeing from that 14b. You'll also get some injector back since you'll be able to get away with a leaner AFR mixture and since you've got a 255 back there turning up base fuel pressure to 45 - 50psi can stretch the injectors even more. You are right though, that 20g will be TOO MUCH for those 850's... or whatever you want to call them.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Those 850's *cough* 750's *cough* will be just enough injector to keep up with the 33 lbs/min you're seeing from that 14b. You'll also get some injector back since you'll be able to get away with a leaner AFR mixture and since you've got a 255 back there turning up base fuel pressure to 45 - 50psi can stretch the injectors even more. You are right though, that 20g will be TOO MUCH for those 850's... or whatever you want to call them.

Hey stop picking my little 850s They try ok

 

[MY1GDSM]

How much boost to you intend to run on your ... Um whatever size Injectors?

 

[gofer]

I should let Nate answer but he's slow

His 850's are actually flowing like 750's, which has been made evident by his SD VE table and trying to tune his AFR's, its been a PITA to say the least. Right now he's hitting 24.5 to 25psi and dropping to about 15psi by redline and flowing about 33 lbs/min out of that 14b. Even if he peaked to 30psi he'd still see 33 lbs/min out of that 14b, it would just be that much more out of its efficiency range blowing hotter air which is more prone to knock as you know.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

How much boost to you intend to run on your ... Um whatever size Injectors?

Well right now I've been runing 24 psi with it tapering off to 15 psi but I'm planning on lowering to to 16 psi or so that way its a more linear boost curve.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

I should let Nate answer but he's slow

Well I'm my defense I'm at work and typing on my phone... unless you were referring to my 1/4 miles times Friday night...

 

[MY1GDSM]

What Kind of IDC's are you seeing now?

I would reconsider upping you BFP to stretch your injectors out... as the pump is going to be at 70-75psi an probably start dropping pressure though you could always pull the pump an "Mod" the relief valve on the top... Oh also is this a HP pump?

 

[gofer]

What Kind of IDC's are you seeing now?

55 to 59% by redline.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

What Kind of IDC's are you seeing now?

I would reconsider upping you BFP to stretch your injectors out... as the pump is going to be at 70-75psi an probably start dropping pressure though you could always pull the pump an "Mod" the relief valve on the top... Oh also is this a HP pump?

It's the standard Walbro 255, not the HP. Corey is dead on with my IDCs, highest I've ever seen is 59, averages a little lower. I just don't understand why my FIC 850's are being like this, I always heard good things about FIC and flowing what they are rated. I'm not going to be very happy if I can't even run my stock turbo on E85 with a brand new set of FIC 850's.

I'm only going to lower the boost to 20 psi for now and see how that goes. 43 psi base fuel pressure + 20 psi of boost = 63 psi so I should be good to go. I think the 255 relief valve opens at 85 psi, right? I won't even be close to that and if need be I could still raise my base to 45 or even 50 and still have some room even though it wouldn't be ideal because as pressure increases flow decreases.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

I am making the switch today I've been driving around with my gas light on for the last two days, better fill her up before I have to push her to the E85 station. I calculated my injectors size 747 (what my FIC 850's flow on my setup ) x .67 = 500.49. Seems like such a small number...

This E85 stuff was never part of my plan so this kind of throws a wrench in the mix. Down the road with a Buschur Racing TD05/6 20g or a Blouch TD06H 20G XT I was planning on running just my single in-tank 255 pump. With E85 it looks like thats not going to cut it. I was comparing the 255 with the 255 HP and it looks like the HP is capable of flowing for about 8 more lbs/min over the standard pump at 25 psi.

Walboro 255lph (Rewired)

10psi = 72.15lbs/min
11psi = 71.47lbs/min
12psi = 70.77lbs/min
13psi = 70.04lbs/min
14psi = 69.29lbs/min
15psi = 68.52lbs/min
16psi = 67.73lbs/min
17psi = 66.92lbs/min
18psi = 66.08lbs/min
19psi = 65.22lbs/min
20psi = 64.34lbs/min
21psi = 63.43lbs/min
22psi = 62.50lbs/min
23psi = 61.55lbs/min
24psi = 60.58lbs/min
25psi = 59.58lbs/min


Walboro 255lph HP (Rewired)

10psi = 74.29lbs/min
11psi = 73.86lbs/min
12psi = 73.43lbs/min
13psi = 73.01lbs/min
14psi = 72.58lbs/min
15psi = 72.15lbs/min
16psi = 71.72lbs/min
17psi = 71.28lbs/min
18psi = 70.85lbs/min
19psi = 70.42lbs/min
20psi = 69.99lbs/min
21psi = 69.55lbs/min
22psi = 69.12lbs/min
23psi = 68.68lbs/min
24psi = 68.24lbs/min
25psi = 67.80lbs/min

But I still don't know if that would be enough. It should get me in the 400 whp range (based on the 255 HP supporting 600 WHP x .67 for E85 = ~ 400). If that is the case I can grab a used HP for real cheap right now. Or If I will end up needing dual 255's would it effect anything if one was a HP and the other wasn't?

 

[gofer]

My fuel setup is what you could consider more than maxed out, I've been putting off fixing it too which is probably a bad idea on my part. I'm logging about 47~48lbs/min airflow running 950's and a single 255HP pump on E85. I've got my base pressure set to 45psi and my IDC's are right at 95% which is definitely not optimal.

Nate, if you're going to spend money on a new fuel pump and plan on sticking to E85 I suggest moving outside the Walbro brand and look at the Aeromotive Stealth 11142. The damn thing flows 340lph and its a in-tank drop in capable of supporting anything a 20g can throw at it without flinching.
Aeromotive#|#11142 - 340 Stealth Fuel Pump (Offset Inlet, Inline)

Either way though, you're going to want to make the move to the full version of V3 and then getting the biggest set of injectors your bank account can support to run E85 and that 20g.

 

[MY1GDSM]

I'm only going to lower the boost to 20 psi for now and see how that goes. 43 psi base fuel pressure + 20 psi of boost = 63 psi so I should be good to go. I think the 255 relief valve opens at 85 psi, right? I won't even be close to that and if need be I could still raise my base to 45 or even 50 and still have some room even though it wouldn't be ideal because as pressure increases flow decreases.

I believe it's 75psi

I'm not sure what's going on with your setup as I haven't looked at an logs or anything.. But seems that the better Idea too just ditch the injectors an Move to something larger.
Or just post back with what you can get away with even though your scaled like that I beleave you will still be able to get away with running more boost then it "calculates" right now once you start leaning out the DA octane maps for e85ght now. Or at least lets hope so.

Either way Obviously something isn't right, I've ran a steady 26psi with 43 BFP on a set of Pte 880's(flow like 840cc@43psi bfp) with my pte5031 they where maxed of course though logging around the same airflow as Corey (I Don't trust airflow numbers on SD though)...

As for the pump like you said the non Hp probably won't cut it an I'd stay at 43 Base fuel pressure. But I'm really curious to see what kind of flow you could get out of it if you punched the Relief as IIRC that is the real difference between the hp an non-hp pumps... the relief valve?

 

[the_mork]

A couple of things here, as mentioned you are going to be running leaner on e85 than gasoline so while you should be multiplying by 2/3 to get the same fueling profile you actually can assume that you'll gain back about 10% once you are running on the leaner fuel map. As for the HP vs the non-HP remember that you can turn a non-hp pump into essentially an HP pump or better by punching in the pressure relief. This is what happened with some Buschur pumps and it looks like HP and non-HP pumps are otherwise essentially identical except for the degree to which the pressure relief tab is pushed in. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are because even if they come off the same line it is certainly possible that the HP pumps are the ones that test out the best which means you could easily be sacrificing pump reliability but it is an option.

Edit: wow, I must start reading posts more carefully. Both of my points were fairly clearly covered by my1gdsm.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Thanks for the info on the fuel pumps!

Ok after I filled up the other day I never got a chance to log or mess with it, I just changed my FIC 850 injectors, which were flowing like 747 injectors, to 500 injectors for the E85. 747x.67=500. When I started it up today it was idling super rich, 11.0-11.3 and wouldn't go into closed loop. I changed to injectors to 850x.67=570 which is -27 globals. This allowed it to start up normally (AFRs in the low 13's) and then it switched into closed loop like it should. I dialed in the injectors when lowed my deadtimes from about 210 to 90. I also reworked my MaxOctane table with 12.0 being the richest at WOT. I haven't touched the timing yet. Here is a log of my idle as I was dialing everything in. Let me know what you guys think. If I need to start my own thread also let me know although I think this applies for others switching to E85 as well.

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