Alternative Fuel E85 E-85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Advanced) [MERGED]

[TranceNRG]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR ADVANCED E85 QUESTIONS, NOT "IS IT POSSIBLE?" THE BEGINNER E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THOSE TYPES OF QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/59040-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-beginner-merged-5-24-8-a.html?highlight=E85+MERGED

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE SERIOUSLY WANTING TO DO THE CONVERSION OR HAVE DONE IT AND HAVE MORE DETAILED QUESTIONS. Below is a quick Ethanol/E85 (Advanced) rundown before you start reading through the merged threads, maybe this will answer you question a bit sooner. To quickly navigate this thread for keywords use the "SEARCH THIS THREAD" tool located in the top right hand corner of this post.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

The stock tank and fuel lines will work fine running E85 and you don't have to change timing on your car when you convert to E85. The smallest pump you'll want to run is a Walbro 255 (rewired), its convenient because it drops right in with a cheap install kit and its a bit cheaper then a Bosch. When you upgrade to such a high flowing fuel pump you'll also need to grab a adjustable fuel pressure regulator (AFPR) to keep everything in check. I also suggest (its not necessary) to upgrade to a FueLab fuel filter with a 40 micron metal element, the Ethanol will eat the OE paper filter over time.

Depending on what time of year it is or your location will determine what type of Ethanol you have available at the pump. Gas stations receive E100 (100% Ethanol) year round and then blend it with 87 octane gasoline and depending on the blend (E85 or E70) it will change the ethanol content rating, octane, and specific gravity of the fuel itself. The typical blends are summer (E85) and winter (E70) which is the MINIMUM amount of ethanol blended with gasoline.

Winter blend (E70)- 70% E100 (113oct) and 30% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 105.
Summer blend (E85)- 85% E100 (113oct) and 15% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 109.​

FINDING OUT WHAT INJECTORS YOU NEED
Since the chemical makeup of ethanol is different you must account for it in your injectors flow rating. To do so you use the following equation by inputing the injectors flow rated on gas multiplied by 0.67. For example, I'll use 750cc injectors and estimate the flow capabilities of them running E85.

750 x 0.67 = 502.5​

After you make the switch to E85 your 750cc injectors will flow 502cc which you'd find out isn't even enough to support the airflow of a 16g turbo.

For you mathematicians, you can also do the equation backwards if you know what size of injectors you would need for you turbo setup on pump gas. For example, a 20g turbos max airflow is 52 lbs/min so on pump gas you would need 880cc injectors to support it.

"pump rated injector flow" x 0.67 = 880
"pump rated injector flow" = 880 / 0.67
"pump rated injector flow" = 1313cc​

After doing the above equation you find that a 1300cc injector will flow about 880cc which is what you want to support a 20g, so before you convert to E85 you need to get 1300cc injectors!​

Like the title says, what did you use to convert to E85?

 

[gofer]

Looks good to me Nate, too bad E85 doesn't give you better traction coming off the line.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Looks good to me Nate, too bad E85 doesn't give you better traction coming off the line.

Ain't that the truth!

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Ok guys here is my first WOT pull with E85. My Wideband isn't logging properly, still trying to dial it in with the LinearWB setup. AFR on the gauge was showing 11.7-11.8 under full boost. My Injector Duty seems about the same as it did on 91 octane; I thought it would have been higher. I'm also going to be turning the boost down to a max of 20 lbs. Let me know what you guys think, I'm going to the drag strip on Sunday so I'd really like to get this dialed in quick. Obviously my AFR is a little bit richer then my target of 12.0 and I know the timing can be advanced but I don't know how much. What kind of timing are you guys running with E85? Dig into it and let me know what you think. I really appreciate it!

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[Imback]

Just by taking a quick glance at your log you have a lot more timing to add. I run 18* . You can run upwards of 20 if you like but there comes a point were you will stop seeing a gain from the add. I don't see a map sensor so i don't know how much boost your running but your injector duty cycle is not bad. As for afr you should shoot for a mid 12.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Just by taking a quick glance at your log you have a lot more timing to add. I run 18* . You can run upwards of 20 if you like but there comes a point were you will stop seeing a gain from the add. I don't see a map sensor so i don't know how much boost your running but your injector duty cycle is not bad. As for afr you should shoot for a mid 12.

MAP sensor is there and is captured. Boost hits 24.7 @ 4,116 RPMs and tapers off to 15.8 @ 6,881 RPM's.

You'e the second person today to tell me I need to go leaner so I guess I'll go ahead and make those changes. 12.5?

Also about the timing that was my timing with 91 octane, I haven't made any changes yet. You run 18* across the board or what kind of curve do you use? Can you post a snapshot or a log?

 

[Calan]

You'e the second person today to tell me I need to go leaner so I guess I'll go ahead and make those changes. 12.5?

Sounds about right.

Also about the timing...

One thing to be careful of with E85 and timing; you'll see rich knock, but very little (if any) if you are running lean/hot. Because of that, you need to rely more on reading your plugs than you would with gas. Pull them often to make sure there are no signs of pitting or extreme heat.

For the record, those high timing numbers don't apply to strokers. Most people on a 2.3l will top out between 8* and 12*.

 

[Imback]

I would post a log but someone broke into my car and stole my laptop . As for timing it's not 18 across. I have my personal car with more timing down low to help with spooling the turbo as well as off boost behavior. So mine tappers off around 18*

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Sounds about right.



One thing to be careful of with E85 and timing; you'll see rich knock, but very little (if any) if you are running lean/hot. Because of that, you need to rely more on reading your plugs than you would with gas. Pull them often to make sure there are no signs of pitting or extreme heat.

For the record, those high timing numbers don't apply to strokers. Most people on a 2.3l will top out between 8* and 12*.

You were the first person to tell me that I was referring to. I'm currently running the factory BPR6ES plugs. I know there was some discussion on the plugs earlier in this thread but should I stick with the 6's or go a step colder with the 7's? Good info on the strokers, I'm running a 2.0 though just to clarify for others reading.

I would post a log but someone broke into my car and stole my laptop . As for timing it's not 18 across. I have my personal car with more timing down low to help with spooling the turbo as well as off boost behavior. So mine tappers off around 18*

So you're running more then 18* in the lower RPMs?

 

[Calan]

I've had the best luck with BR7ES, or maybe BR8ES when IAT's are up in the summer. I prefer the non-projected tips ("BR" vs. "BPR"), as they seem to help with spark blowout a little better.

BUT... my car is just evil and sometimes suffers from spark blowout even with a new ignition and at gaps that would make you cringe.

 

[Imback]

You were the first person to tell me that I was referring to. I'm currently running the factory BPR6ES plugs. I know there was some discussion on the plugs earlier in this thread but should I stick with the 6's or go a step colder with the 7's? Good info on the strokers, I'm running a 2.0 though just to clarify for others reading.




So you're running more then 18* in the lower RPMs?

Yes. I worked off of a railart gsr map which is already aggressive. Here is the file for you to review. http://www.ecmtuning.com/images/forums/v3configs/EVO8-2004-GSR-Ralliart.eda

As for plugs i would say 7es gaped to .26 sounds about right.

 

[gofer]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to your email Nate, I'm attempting to get my car ready for the local 1/8th mile on Saturday and it hasn't ran since December. I'm scared...

Anyway, a good E85 tune can only really be done on a dyno to see where gains are made and lost and the problem is EVERY car is different. Before I got my car on the dyno I tuned it to 25psi / 12.2:1 AFR's / 17* timing advance. On the dyno we turned the boost up to 30psi and tried leaning it out even more from 12.2:1 and saw no hp/tq gains, so why stretch the tune to the edge? My buddy Sam at RRE richened it up to 11.6~11.8:1, this was the sweet spot for my car because anything leaner gave no power gains and it was closer to "the edge" so to speak. Once AFR's were set it was time to advance timing, again noticed that point where the 3-4* more advanced was worth 5whp. We did a dyno queen pull on 21* advance IIRC and my car did 439awhp/392tq, to keep it safe though he retarded it to 17* peak and it did 437awhp/387tq and its more reliable power.

Like Craig suggested, run the non projected tip NGK's to prevent spark blowout. I run BR8ES's gapped to .026" and have never had any issues, I just check them with every oil change to make sure the motors heathly.

 

[Calan]

Corey... I'm surprised that you made best power at 11.6-11.8:1 on the corn juice. That's really close to an optimal AFR for pump gas if you aren't knocking. Just out of curiosity, how much air were you flowing at that point?

BTW - You have email.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Yes. I worked off of a railart gsr map which is already aggressive. Here is the file for you to review. http://www.ecmtuning.com/images/forums/v3configs/EVO8-2004-GSR-Ralliart.eda

As for plugs i would say 7es gaped to .26 sounds about right.

Thanks for that file, I'll take a look at it.

Sorry I haven't gotten back to your email Nate, I'm attempting to get my car ready for the local 1/8th mile on Saturday and it hasn't ran since December. I'm scared...

Anyway, a good E85 tune can only really be done on a dyno to see where gains are made and lost and the problem is EVERY car is different. Before I got my car on the dyno I tuned it to 25psi / 12.2:1 AFR's / 17* timing advance. On the dyno we turned the boost up to 30psi and tried leaning it out even more from 12.2:1 and saw no hp/tq gains, so why stretch the tune to the edge? My buddy Sam at RRE richened it up to 11.6~11.8:1, this was the sweet spot for my car because anything leaner gave no power gains and it was closer to "the edge" so to speak. Once AFR's were set it was time to advance timing, again noticed that point where the 3-4* more advanced was worth 5whp. We did a dyno queen pull on 21* advance IIRC and my car did 439awhp/392tq, to keep it safe though he retarded it to 17* peak and it did 437awhp/387tq and its more reliable power.

Like Craig suggested, run the non projected tip NGK's to prevent spark blowout. I run BR8ES's gapped to .026" and have never had any issues, I just check them with every oil change to make sure the motors heathly.

No worries Corey! You've been an astronomical help already with all of this! I'm looking forward to seeing what you can do at the track on Saturday with your new slicks and Shep Trans! When are you taking it to the 1/4 mile?

So I guess I'll go back to my plan of tuning it to 12.0 for starters and then if I can get it on a dyno go from there. I know our setups are way different but can you send me a log of what your timing looks like or what you think would work best for me so I can base it on something. Also are you running more timing advance in the low RPMs like Imback or do you have a normal "gas curve" (for lack of a better term) where it builds up to 17*? I'll go with a non-prijected plug next time. I might try 7's but I'm still on the 14b so I think 8's would be a little much for my setup.

Since I'm hitting about .2:1 richer then my target at WOT should I adjust the injector size or mess with my VE table? I have a feeling it's the injector size thats a little off since, well face it, they're my injectors and they like to be difficult. Since it running richer, I should raise the injector size so it sprays less fuel, right?

 

[Calan]

Since I'm hitting about .2:1 richer then my target at WOT should I adjust the injector size or mess with my VE table? I have a feeling it's the injector size thats a little off since, well face it, they're my injectors and they like to be difficult. Since it running richer, I should raise the injector size so it sprays less fuel, right?

You can try going slightly more negative on the global; it won't take much if you are only .2 AFR off.

I prefer to get the fuel as closely calibrated as possible, since that is the only thing that we have accurate data for. You can have your injectors flow tested, do a simple test on your local fuel to see what the ethanol content is, measure your base fuel pressure, and even measure the flow at the return line to compare against predicted values. With this info, you can set up your fuel parameters with a fairly high degree of certainty.

After that, any error in your target and actual AFR "has" to be error in the airflow (VE) calibration or in the IAT/coolant temperature compensation table...at least on paper.

EDIT:

Just pulled up your log Nate... what is your base fuel pressure set to and your injector size? If it's 43psi on 850's, your fuel looks dead on; assuming your E85 is truly E85. Have you ever tested it?

Your VE table looks a bit on the high side, so it may very well be the VE calculation.

 

[Sam@RRE]

Looks like an interesting thread. Been working on a project car recently. Pretty wild, but things haven't been going according to plan.
Quickie spec:
2.0L motor, eagle wiseco.
HX40/35 hybrid w/3" v band outlet, and 3" outlet on compressor.
Magnus Drag manifold
twin scroll manifold with dual MV-S gates.
75mm Throttle with about 4 ft of 3" piping from turbo to Throttle no intercooler.
Primary fuel is e85 through 1600cc injectors
secondary fuel is 34GPH of meth to cool the intake charge.

Currently sitting at 530whp at 41psi of boost. Melted a plug and determined cylinder 3 is running lean. Other cylinders, plugs look great to possibly slightly rich. Leading me to believe the car is currently limited due to the lean cylinder and the WB reading is accurate but is an average of all cylinder. While 1,2 and 4 are in a happy place, 3 is pissed the hell off. This is limiting me on timing and forcing me to run richer than needed. Sent the injectors out and they checked out all within 2cc of each other, checked wiring and there is a difference in resistance value one some of the injector wiring. Fixed it and going back on the dyno tomorrow. Just trying to get some input if anyone had this before, wondering if anyone has any other leads, throw out any thing really, there are not such thing as stupid answers....except your Jimmy.

 

[Calan]

Any theories on why #3 is so lean Sam? Have you swapped injectors around to see if it follows the injector?

EDIT:

Nevermind... I saw that you had them all tested.

Are you running different deadtimes on each of them by any chance?

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

You can try going slightly more negative on the global; it won't take much if you are only .2 AFR off.

I prefer to get the fuel as closely calibrated as possible, since that is the only thing that we have accurate data for. You can have your injectors flow tested, do a simple test on your local fuel to see what the ethanol content is, measure your base fuel pressure, and even measure the flow at the return line to compare against predicted values. With this info, you can set up your fuel parameters with a fairly high degree of certainty.

After that, any error in your target and actual AFR "has" to be error in the airflow (VE) calibration or in the IAT/coolant temperature compensation table...at least on paper.

EDIT:

Just pulled up your log Nate... what is your base fuel pressure set to and your injector size? If it's 43psi on 850's, your fuel looks dead on; assuming your E85 is truly E85. Have you ever tested it?

Your VE table looks a bit on the high side, so it may very well be the VE calculation.

Injectors are indeed FIC 850's and the base pressure is 43 psi. You are correct though, the VE table is inflated and lowering it should lean it out a little which would equal problem solved!

I have not tested the e85 nor do I know how. I just started this e85 stuff last week. Are there test kits you can buy?

 

[Calan]

They do make cheap testers that you can buy on eBay; here is one of them, and another similar one.

There was also some info posted up on the Link forums a couple years ago on it, and a long thread on some fuel testing I did at one point. I'll see if I can find the links and update this in a bit.

EDIT:

Still no luck on the E85 thread, but I found the semi-related thread on fuel testing that you might find interesting (or not):

Specific gravity and stoich ratio of different fuels, and AFRatioEst

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

They do make cheap testers that you can buy on eBay; here is one of them, and another similar one.

There was also some info posted up on the Link forums a couple years ago on it, and a long thread on some fuel testing I did at one point. I'll see if I can find the links and update this in a bit.

EDIT:

Still no luck on the E85 thread, but I found the semi-related thread on fuel testing that you might find interesting (or not):

Specific gravity and stoich ratio of different fuels, and AFRatioEst

Wow I didn't realize it was that simple! Those are reusable right? Very neat!

 

[Calan]

Yep...reusable.

 

[Sam@RRE]

Got it back on the dyno today. Cylinder 4 was lean today. I honestly am at a loss now. Probably gunna go to an air/water intercooler setup with and icebox or back to the FMIC. IT was pretty consistent 510whp all day back to back at 38psi. Stepped up the boost to 42psi and got 540whp even after richening it up to 11.3:1 AFR from 12:1 AFR still at 10* of timing and melted a plug in cylinder #4 this time. All other cylinders looked really good. So, I really dont know now. Im thinking at that volume of meth the distribution is a little iffy, or something up with that injector still. I would guess #4 would get the most meth if anything, which makes me wonder why #4 is so lean.

 

[Calan]

Time to go direct port with the meth.

 

[gofer]

Got it back on the dyno today. Cylinder 4 was lean today. I honestly am at a loss now. Probably gunna go to an air/water intercooler setup with and icebox or back to the FMIC. IT was pretty consistent 510whp all day back to back at 38psi. Stepped up the boost to 42psi and got 540whp even after richening it up to 11.3:1 AFR from 12:1 AFR still at 10* of timing and melted a plug in cylinder #4 this time. All other cylinders looked really good. So, I really dont know now. Im thinking at that volume of meth the distribution is a little iffy, or something up with that injector still. I would guess #4 would get the most meth if anything, which makes me wonder why #4 is so lean.

I told Kris about your earlier post, melting the #2 plug, and inconsistent meth distribution was the only thing that made sense. Now after reading that you melted the plug in #4 its about the only thing it could be, isn't it? I guess its pretty hard to test the theory but it seems the only fix would be to go direct port with the meth, if of course its worth those extra 30 ponies?

Who's car is all this being done on Sam (Hugo?) and how quick does that Hybrid HX spool on a twin scroll manifold and the hot pipe setup?

 

[Sam@RRE]

I'll dig up some logs. Its not early, but FAST spool. Like literally being rear ended, no joke. The spins all 4 and gets sideways in second from a 2K rpm roll. The reason we arent doing direct port is the meth is there to cool the AIT. We don't need the octane or cylinder cooling effects, the car is on e85 as primary fuel so thats doing all the octane and cylinder cooling. The car has no intercooler what-so-ever, so the meth is there to just specificly cool the charge.

 

[gofer]

I'll dig up some logs. Its not early, but FAST spool. Like literally being rear ended, no joke. The spins all 4 and gets sideways in second from a 2K rpm roll. The reason we arent doing direct port is the meth is there to cool the AIT. We don't need the octane or cylinder cooling effects, the car is on e85 as primary fuel so thats doing all the octane and cylinder cooling. The car has no intercooler what-so-ever, so the meth is there to just specificly cool the charge.

Did you get my text earlier this afternoon Sam? Kris and I were pushing weights around at the gym and talking about the setup you were running. Kris thinks that you aren't running enough timing advance, he did bring up a good point that E85 burns slower. If timing isn't advanced enough it will raise EGT's because you won't be getting a complete burn in the CC, which in turn would melt spark plugs.