Alternative Fuel E85 E-85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Advanced) [MERGED]

[TranceNRG]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR ADVANCED E85 QUESTIONS, NOT "IS IT POSSIBLE?" THE BEGINNER E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THOSE TYPES OF QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/59040-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-beginner-merged-5-24-8-a.html?highlight=E85+MERGED

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE SERIOUSLY WANTING TO DO THE CONVERSION OR HAVE DONE IT AND HAVE MORE DETAILED QUESTIONS. Below is a quick Ethanol/E85 (Advanced) rundown before you start reading through the merged threads, maybe this will answer you question a bit sooner. To quickly navigate this thread for keywords use the "SEARCH THIS THREAD" tool located in the top right hand corner of this post.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

The stock tank and fuel lines will work fine running E85 and you don't have to change timing on your car when you convert to E85. The smallest pump you'll want to run is a Walbro 255 (rewired), its convenient because it drops right in with a cheap install kit and its a bit cheaper then a Bosch. When you upgrade to such a high flowing fuel pump you'll also need to grab a adjustable fuel pressure regulator (AFPR) to keep everything in check. I also suggest (its not necessary) to upgrade to a FueLab fuel filter with a 40 micron metal element, the Ethanol will eat the OE paper filter over time.

Depending on what time of year it is or your location will determine what type of Ethanol you have available at the pump. Gas stations receive E100 (100% Ethanol) year round and then blend it with 87 octane gasoline and depending on the blend (E85 or E70) it will change the ethanol content rating, octane, and specific gravity of the fuel itself. The typical blends are summer (E85) and winter (E70) which is the MINIMUM amount of ethanol blended with gasoline.

Winter blend (E70)- 70% E100 (113oct) and 30% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 105.
Summer blend (E85)- 85% E100 (113oct) and 15% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 109.​

FINDING OUT WHAT INJECTORS YOU NEED
Since the chemical makeup of ethanol is different you must account for it in your injectors flow rating. To do so you use the following equation by inputing the injectors flow rated on gas multiplied by 0.67. For example, I'll use 750cc injectors and estimate the flow capabilities of them running E85.

750 x 0.67 = 502.5​

After you make the switch to E85 your 750cc injectors will flow 502cc which you'd find out isn't even enough to support the airflow of a 16g turbo.

For you mathematicians, you can also do the equation backwards if you know what size of injectors you would need for you turbo setup on pump gas. For example, a 20g turbos max airflow is 52 lbs/min so on pump gas you would need 880cc injectors to support it.

"pump rated injector flow" x 0.67 = 880
"pump rated injector flow" = 880 / 0.67
"pump rated injector flow" = 1313cc​

After doing the above equation you find that a 1300cc injector will flow about 880cc which is what you want to support a 20g, so before you convert to E85 you need to get 1300cc injectors!​

Like the title says, what did you use to convert to E85?

 

[Clinical]

e85 will go stale faster than gasoline as gofer mentioned.

Just 2 months of sitting, took my car even longer than normal to start, ran cruddy until it worked through the system. It wont go completely bad, but it stales fast enough I wouldn't want to start up a car thats been sitting for 2 months and beat on it.

 

[dsmmatt28]

Just run a few gallons of regular fuel through the system and it will clean off the black GOO... its no biggie..MY first experience was about 2 years ago.. Had brand new Blue max... I spun a rod bearing.. Upon pulling the injectors I notice the black goo.. I searched and found nothing.. Tried to use brake parts cleaner but it didn't work to good.. Eventually I through another motor in and the same blue max injectors.. Well during start up and Idle etc etc I used regular gas.. After I got the car running well enough to drive I was going to pull the injectors and try to clean them didn't want it clogging up and lean out a cylinder.. To my surprise the black goo was all gone. So now every so often I just run pump though my system to clean out the injectors.. Its easy for me with link to change maps.. Im not doing any wot on pump.. so just for putting around town it will work. Hope this helps.

 

[gofer]

Class 1 is 106-105 octane
Class 2 is 105-104 octane
Class 3 is 104-103 octane
In some places the octane level can fluctuate, but as for the 2 pumps closest to me ethenol is generally about 105 octane
It's not wrong or confusing, I'm still not seeing anything where i'm blatently wrong?

Every post after your first has information in it thats incorrect and your first one didn't have any technical information in it that you posted.

To set the things straight for everyone that comes across this thread there are three different classes of Ethanol. Depending on the region you live in and the time of year it is the blend the station will have at your pump will vary. To find information more specific to you just follow the link.---> E85 Regional Chart

Its a common misconception that class 1 E85 is 105oct, E85 stations have to advertise a minimum pump octane rating (AKI) and ethanol percentage. My local E85 station, as well as the others around the country, advertise a minimum octane rating of 105 and an E70 blend which is also known as Class 3 Ethanol. At the gas station E100 is mixed with 87oct pump and depending on the blend (E85 or E70) it will change the ethanol content rating, AKI, and SG of the fuel. I already posted the octane ratings of E85 and E70 a few posts up but wrong information keeps getting tossed into the thread so here it is again incase you missed it.

Class 3: Winter blend (E70)- 70% E100 (113oct) and 30% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 105.
Class 1: Summer blend (E85)- 85% E100 (113oct) and 15% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 109.​

 

[MY1GDSM]

First off I'm with you on this Gofer
I'm so sick of seeing all the E85 threads getting filled with "I heard from this guy that knows my buddy" responses. It's really is stupid for anyone that doesn't have first hand knowledge to comment (at least with out providing some proof) and I don't mean the guy the paid someone to tune it two weeks ago... Just wish people wouldn't comment it just causes more confusion then anything but, anyway.

Just FYI for everyone from what I've noticed ruining E85 for over the last 3-4 years

Not all stations change their Blends according to the Regional Chart Most do But some places will stay with a higher blend longer and some don't. Also I seen some testing done I awhile back from the MN area(they have 100's of e85 stations) where almost none of the station blend was where it was suppose to be or even in the same area of % as each other... . People don't realize that unless you buy it from a "Station" that sell it to Car enthusiasts like a "Performance Shop" that they have no interest in making it a consistent level since FFV are designed to change to any blends between Gas an Ethanol on their own

That being said
I'd just recommend people planning to run E85 to stay with one station if possible an and pay attention to what their AFR are doing around the most common Mar/Apr ~ Sep/Oct blend changes(Also when filling up at a new station) or to be aware of when their area is Suppose to change

If you goto another station an your car leans out Stick with that one they are running a higher blend

unless you've got the cash for one of these Zeitronix Ethanol Content Analyzer. I'd get one just for the hell of it but you need one of these Ethanol Content Sensor $354.00 for it to work Although it would be handy for anyone in an area where they have limited E85 or switch Maps back and forth alot.

Here's a Vid of one in action
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But in the end it's really not that big of a deal if you know what your doing... .

 

[1slota]

Perhaps I may be getting ahead of myself a little but I have a few questions related to running e85.
I've spent hours reading threads on here and have gathered alot of info, but I still wonder about a few things.
My car is a 98 gst with a 6bolt engine, 16g turbo, FMIC and 3inch turboback echaust.
pretty much I just would like to run 20psi and shitloads of timing. not looking for a 12second car, but something different and hopefully still streetable enough to commute 60 miles 3 times a week. I completely understand that I will lose milage, potentially 16-17mpgs from what I've read. I'm ok with that though.
So finally my inquiries.

number 1 being the fuel pump. The guy I bought the car from claims he
installed a walbro highflow pump, and it sure sounds like an aftermarket pump. But I need to know if there is a way to identify wether it is a 190 or 255 pump.
I'm assuming a 255 would be best. and if it's a 190, would a rewire be sufficient?

which leads me to question number 2.
The AFPR. I can't imagine a stock regulator handling a 255 well from what I've read. So I'm assuming I would need an AFPR and possibly have to up the pressure to run the e85 at that level of boost.

And last but not least injectors. would the stock 450s flow enough ethanol with the larger pump and being able to adjust the fuel pressure?

I've got an openport 2.0 with ceddy mods / ecuflash and adding a wideband 02sensor so I will be able to adjust timing and fuel injector perameters as needed.

thanks for taking the time to read my long-ass post.
Shawn

 

[Absit]

You can't really talk about fuel mods in terms of boost, you have to talk in terms of horsepower or air flow. The stock 450s won't be enough, and you don't "up the pressure" on an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, you buy a rising rate regulator and for every pound of boost the manifold sees, the regulator increases the fuel pressure by one pound.

 

[1slota]

that makes sense. In that case. I'd be more than satisfied with 300 horsepower or a little more. Bein fwd, i don't think more than that would be useful in my case.

 

[Absit]

I do have to suggest you not bother with E85, you can easily hit 300 WHP with any 16G on 91/93 pump. It would be less of a hassle and probably cheaper overall, and you wouldn't suffer poor gas mileage. That being said, if you wanted it, I'd get injectors in the 950 range and a 255 with AFPR. Understand that I always overestimate for fuel system, the cost isn't much different and it's worth the protection.

Again though, I strongly suggest you just run 91/93, it'll be cheaper and more efficient. If you run 91/93, all you'll need (assuming you have a 190 lph pump now) is a set of injectors, go with something in the 700s (you won't use all of it, but they cost almost the same anyway).

 

[Bullet3]

I'd have to agree that your probably better off sticking with 91/93. It would probably be cheaper to get an aem water/meth kit. With e85 you will have to replace your fuel lines with ss, and would need atleast 800cc injectors. I think you can get the aem kit with a 5gallon tank for around 400$.

 

[Absit]

I'd have to agree that your probably better off sticking with 91/93. It would probably be cheaper to get an aem water/meth kit. With e85 you will have to replace your fuel lines with ss, and would need atleast 800cc injectors. I think you can get the aem kit with a 5gallon tank for around 400$.

You don't have to replace your lines, and he won't need meth for 300 WHP.

 

[95gst16g]

You can put down some power with e85...but you need big injectors like said above.You also need something to tune them with.You don't HAVE to get a fpr but you probably should so you don't over run it...I ran a stock 2g regulator on 1000cc injectors and a wally 255 for a long time with no ill effects that i know of.but I did end up buying a afpr eventually.

 

[MY1GDSM]

if your asking if you can use 450cc injectors you didn't read at all that much... at least not as much as your making it out to be... it's advisable to run 1000cc+ injectors

ALL your stock line will work just fine... no reason to change them. If you haven't read already, It is advisable to change your fuel filter after you first fuel tank and after a couple more because Ethanol will clean out all gunk Left by gas an clog them up.

Unless you plan on running 25-30psi I don't see any reason for you to run Ethanol you can get away with timing number fairly close to E85 levels at 20psi with decent gas ...

As far as a FPR If your upping the Fuel pressure your going to be running out of fuel pump faster walbro's flow fall off above 70psi so say since you have no car info filled out....

I'll use an auto 1g as an example take 43 psi base fuel pressure and bump that up to say 50psi add 20psi boost and your 1:1 raising rate fuel pressure regulate regardless of stock or not is going to raise that 50psi to 70psi where your pumps flow is dropping off at a faster rate then flow that's assuming you have a 255HP not a 190 or regular 255 here a chart to help at the bottom it will also tell you the Part# of the pump so you can check (All walbro pumps say right on them what they are)

Credit to RRE for the Chart...

All this it coming from someone the has run E85 for years... IMHO you should do a bit more reading... But I'm more then happy to help and I'm sure other are as well just try to limit you questions that have been covered or could of been answered with a simple search though I don't fault you to much since their's a LOT of misinformation out their...

He is a good post that covers some of the Pro's Vs Con's of running E85 theis alittle more info in that thread but take with a grain of salt what people that haven't ran E85 Say...

 

[2GFWDbeast]

You should run at least 1000cc injectors i bought the 1250 fic blue max injectors. Your def gonna need a eprom with a e85 chip. Or buy a dsmlink. Keep your base fuel pressure at 43psi. Def do a rewire on the 255 pump. Def get arp head studs if you dont already. Your not gonna get much of a difference off of 20psi on e85. You need to run 25 or more to get the full effect of what E85 can do for ya. You dont have to REPLACE your FUEL LINES. Im Running E85 on my fully built 1990 gsx. Im rite around 500hp on stock fuel lines. You need to replace your fuel lines when you start hitting 700hp and up, and running dual fuel pumps or inline fuel pump.

 

[Absit]

Your def gonna need a eprom with a e85 chip.

He's already got a tuning solution.

 

[MY1GDSM]

He's already got a tuning solution.

I've got an openport 2.0 with ceddy mods / ecuflash and adding a wideband 02sensor so I will be able to adjust timing and fuel injector perameters as needed.

I read right over it the first time an didn't catch as well... I guess it more then likely a 98-99 2gb then

 

[1slota]

I reallly appreciate all the info guys. I guess I didn't realized 93 octane could handle the 20 psi. I'll admit I'm still learing my way around the tuning and fuel modification. I figured the fuel lines would be fine. I'm still trying to pick a direction for the car. If I can achieve 300hp on 93octane I won't bother with ethanol at the moment. I've just always wanted to experiment with it, but I suppose I'll wait a while. Yes the 450cc question was kinda retarded. Like I said, kinda getting ahead of myself..... So if I was to expect 300hp on 91/93 octane ya'll recomend 750cc injectors. I'll pull the pump tomorrow and check the part number.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Honestly, you could get that size injectors... . But, why not get larger ones?If you get to your goal then you'll just end up wanting more power down the road (trust me) then have to sell the 750's for larger ones...just go a bit larger like 950-1050 that way you'll have Room to grow an if you do decide to run E85 you can... their not that much more $$$

also nothing wrong with wanting to experiment with it(if you've got the knowledge to tune)... I use to read all sorts of rumors about it before I ever ran it. When only a few people out their did an their wasn't much info a few people had been doing it awhile but even then the info was limited an your Really had to search an not alot of people sharing info. I just I went an jumped in head first the first day our station opened an started figuring it out it Trust me Its WAY esier these days

 

[1slota]

Honestly, you could get that size injectors... . But, why not get larger ones?If you get to your goal then you'll just end up wanting more power down the road (trust me) then have to sell the 750's for larger ones...just go a bit larger like 950-1050 that way you'll have Room to grow an if you do decide to run E85 you can... their not that much more $$$

also nothing wrong with wanting to experiment with it(if you've got the knowledge to tune)... I use to read all sorts of rumors about it before I ever ran it. When only a few people out their did an their wasn't much info a few people had been doing it awhile but even then the info was limited an your Really had to search an not alot of people sharing info. I just I went an jumped in head first the first day our station opened an started figuring it out it Trust me Its WAY esier these days

thats a very valid point. would be pretty sweet to have the option later on to go e85.

 

[Absit]

The only problem with that is if you decide you want more power AND to use E85, the 1000s aren't going to cut it, and above that is where they start to get spendy. You really either have to go big (1200+) and be ready for upgrades or buy for what your goals are.

 

[1slota]

yeah when I was pricing them, I noticed the price jumped conciderably in the 1000+cc range. 93 will probably cut it for me as far as I can foresee honestly. I've just always been super curious about experimenting eith e85 but the more I learn about it, it seems less and less practicle for my needs. Someday I'd still like to play with it, but on a gst there's only so much power I see myself bein able to really take advantage of with only two 225width tires doin all the work.

 

[MY1GDSM]

The only problem with that is if you decide you want more power AND to use E85, the 1000s aren't going to cut it, and above that is where they start to get spendy. You really either have to go big (1200+) and be ready for upgrades or buy for what your goals are.

In most peoples cases 1050-1150cc will be more then surfice for someone... Running a 16g turbo on E85... . Also do you have any first hand experience with Running E85 or have anything to back these claims up with???

 

[Absit]

In most peoples cases 1050-1150cc will be more then surfice for someone... Running a 16g turbo on E85... . Also do you have any first hand experience with Running E85 or have anything to back these claims up with???

Yes, they will, however he said more power, implying a bigger turbo or really pushing the 16g. Either way it means more air and that means more fuel.

And yes, I have a bit of experience with E85. Moreover, why would you not bump a few sizes up when the price difference isn't that much?

It's always better to have too much fuel than even think about having too little.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Your contradicting yourself... 1150cc Injectors should be enough fuel to support more then 50lbs a min. of Airflow If he's flowing more then that on a 16g I'm sure we'll have more than a few people interested...

The most WHP I've see a 16g hit was with E98 spiking to 41psi an that was with 1200cc injectors Again I'll say it should be more then surfice for his app if he even does go the E85 route...

Although you want to have head room As it is I don't believe he would be using 1000cc up that soon as it is and you want to have a injectors sized appropriate for your app if you have an extra 500cc of fuel it's not gonna make you any power and would hurt it if anything...

 

[Absit]

Your contradicting yourself... 1150cc Injectors should be enough fuel to support more then 50lbs a min. of Airflow If he's flowing more then that on a 16g I'm sure we'll have more than a few people interested...
The most WHP I've see a 16g hit was with E98 spiking to 41psi an that was with 1200cc injectors Again I'll say it should be more then surfice for his app if he even does go the E85 route...

Again, he didn't say he was sticking with the 16g. He just said more power. If you'd like to discuss it further please PM me.

 

[MY1GDSM]

I have no reason to PM you... If theirs anything to do with E85 or other you'd like to discuss it can be done in the forums