Alternative Fuel E85 E-85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Advanced) [MERGED]

[TranceNRG]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR ADVANCED E85 QUESTIONS, NOT "IS IT POSSIBLE?" THE BEGINNER E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THOSE TYPES OF QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/59040-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-beginner-merged-5-24-8-a.html?highlight=E85+MERGED

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE SERIOUSLY WANTING TO DO THE CONVERSION OR HAVE DONE IT AND HAVE MORE DETAILED QUESTIONS. Below is a quick Ethanol/E85 (Advanced) rundown before you start reading through the merged threads, maybe this will answer you question a bit sooner. To quickly navigate this thread for keywords use the "SEARCH THIS THREAD" tool located in the top right hand corner of this post.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

The stock tank and fuel lines will work fine running E85 and you don't have to change timing on your car when you convert to E85. The smallest pump you'll want to run is a Walbro 255 (rewired), its convenient because it drops right in with a cheap install kit and its a bit cheaper then a Bosch. When you upgrade to such a high flowing fuel pump you'll also need to grab a adjustable fuel pressure regulator (AFPR) to keep everything in check. I also suggest (its not necessary) to upgrade to a FueLab fuel filter with a 40 micron metal element, the Ethanol will eat the OE paper filter over time.

Depending on what time of year it is or your location will determine what type of Ethanol you have available at the pump. Gas stations receive E100 (100% Ethanol) year round and then blend it with 87 octane gasoline and depending on the blend (E85 or E70) it will change the ethanol content rating, octane, and specific gravity of the fuel itself. The typical blends are summer (E85) and winter (E70) which is the MINIMUM amount of ethanol blended with gasoline.

Winter blend (E70)- 70% E100 (113oct) and 30% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 105.
Summer blend (E85)- 85% E100 (113oct) and 15% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 109.​

FINDING OUT WHAT INJECTORS YOU NEED
Since the chemical makeup of ethanol is different you must account for it in your injectors flow rating. To do so you use the following equation by inputing the injectors flow rated on gas multiplied by 0.67. For example, I'll use 750cc injectors and estimate the flow capabilities of them running E85.

750 x 0.67 = 502.5​

After you make the switch to E85 your 750cc injectors will flow 502cc which you'd find out isn't even enough to support the airflow of a 16g turbo.

For you mathematicians, you can also do the equation backwards if you know what size of injectors you would need for you turbo setup on pump gas. For example, a 20g turbos max airflow is 52 lbs/min so on pump gas you would need 880cc injectors to support it.

"pump rated injector flow" x 0.67 = 880
"pump rated injector flow" = 880 / 0.67
"pump rated injector flow" = 1313cc​

After doing the above equation you find that a 1300cc injector will flow about 880cc which is what you want to support a 20g, so before you convert to E85 you need to get 1300cc injectors!​

Like the title says, what did you use to convert to E85?

 

[rstchris]

Agreed^^^
I ran a pte 50 trim on e85 @ 30psi 6swap, ported, cams ect. all on 850cc, wally gss342, stock 2g fpr. If you run injectors way too big you will have trouble tuning a tame street car for upgrades you MIGHT do someday. My .02

 

[1TireFireTSi]

I reallly appreciate all the info guys. I guess I didn't realized 93 octane could handle the 20 psi. I'll admit I'm still learing my way around the tuning and fuel modification. I figured the fuel lines would be fine. I'm still trying to pick a direction for the car. If I can achieve 300hp on 93octane I won't bother with ethanol at the moment. I've just always wanted to experiment with it, but I suppose I'll wait a while. Yes the 450cc question was kinda retarded. Like I said, kinda getting ahead of myself..... So if I was to expect 300hp on 91/93 octane ya'll recomend 750cc injectors. I'll pull the pump tomorrow and check the part number.

I just switched over from pump gas to E85 and was pretty happy with the results. On 91 octane gas, I was running Evo 560s with a Walbro 190fp on the Evo 16G. After 310whp at over 20psi I was pushing the limits of the FP and and was getting some knock at the top end, pulling 5 degrees of timing. I'm sure I could of pulled a degree or two of timing and been fine with around 280whp or so, which is still a handful with an open diff fwd on street tires. On that set up, I was getting around 29mpg with mild HWY driving.

On Ethanol, with Delphi 950s and a Walbro 255, I'm still getting 23mpg if I stay out of boost. Because of the price difference between E85 and pump gas, I'm breaking even in terms of money with about 25% more hp on a safer tune ($2.59 for E85 vs $3.37 for Premium).

Either way, it doesn't take much to go over to the E85 but keep in mind if you do, you'll want a new fuel filter because the ethanol is a solvent and will wash deposits in your gas tank through your fuel system which is bad news.

Good luck.

 

[Cinimod]

Hello there fellow dsm freaks!!

I have searched and searched and come up with no answers on my question.
This is my first time rebuilding an engine from the ground up, all the details are posted under my profile.
I am going to be using e85 bcause I just don't want the hassle of running any meth injection and wanted to know what experiences people with similar setups went through when starting the car for the first time.
What I'm trying to say is what fuel pressure, dsmlink settings, specific settings, or precausions I need to take upon cranking it over for the first time.
I need guidance becAuse e85 is not the same as regular gasoline so I don't want to screw the engine up in any way.

Thanks, and sorry if this sounds stupid.

 

[gofer]

Initial start-up and break-in of a 4g63 engine is the same whether you plan on running pump gas, race gas, meth, or E85. Of course everyone has their own opinion of how the car should be driven during the break-in process but its not based on the fuel type you plan on using. Since your asking for more specifics on setup and settings I won't get into detail about engine break-in but how do you plan on doing it?

Your GT3582R flows 65lbs/min which is just fine for your 1200cc injectors on regular old pump gas but you'll be maxing those injectors out on E85 on just 58lbs/min. To support E85 and a turbo pushing 65lbs/min you'll want to get 1600cc injectors or larger. Everything else in your profile modifications list will be able to support whatever that turbo and E85 can throw at it.
Your ECMLink v3 fuel settings will depend on the injectors you choose to go with, once you pick a set of injectors that can support that turbo let me know and I'll give you a ball park number for the initial settings. Your base fuel pressure settings will be 43.5psi, just like a stock 2g. Your MAF settings will need to be changed from stock 2g MAF to 3" GM MAF and then tuned properly using the MAFComp adjustment sliders after you start the car and let it idle.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Just Stumbled across something pertaining to E85 Injector sizing/Max lb/min/Global Calculations figured it would be helpful

Its fairly old and alot of it depends on the mix of Ethanol to Gas among other things, But the Numbers look pretty damn close to me... .Clicky here

 

[oneslowevo]

I just switched over from pump gas to E85 and was pretty happy with the results. On 91 octane gas, I was running Evo 560s with a Walbro 190fp on the Evo 16G. After 310whp at over 20psi I was pushing the limits of the FP and and was getting some knock at the top end, pulling 5 degrees of timing. I'm sure I could of pulled a degree or two of timing and been fine with around 280whp or so, which is still a handful with an open diff fwd on street tires. On that set up, I was getting around 29mpg with mild HWY driving.

On Ethanol, with Delphi 950s and a Walbro 255, I'm still getting 23mpg if I stay out of boost. Because of the price difference between E85 and pump gas, I'm breaking even in terms of money with about 25% more hp on a safer tune ($2.59 for E85 vs $3.37 for Premium).

Either way, it doesn't take much to go over to the E85 but keep in mind if you do, you'll want a new fuel filter because the ethanol is a solvent and will wash deposits in your gas tank through your fuel system which is bad news.

Good luck.

exactly what he said.

 

[Cinimod]

That helps a lot, thanks.
I'll be posting my new pt1200 injectors on the classifieds and maybe someone will want to trade for 1600 or bigger. I will definatly shoot you a messege after I pick them up.

Thanks again!

 

[MY1GDSM]

I'd say also for the most part no reason to run e85 till you get it "broke in"
IMO Just run gas get a base map an then switch over...Here is something to give you an Idea of what differant injectors will support Airflow wise Click here

 

[gofer]

OP you do what you want but I say break it in on E85 because of the fact you can run MORE BOOST to seat the rings like you need to. Like I said in my first post, there are a lot of opinions of how an engine should be broken in but how do you plan on doing it? Lots of boost or staying out of boost?

Everyone seems to have their own special recipe for breaking-in a fresh built 4g63 engine but I suggest reading both of these articles and pick the one your most comfortable with:

- More Power/Less Wear Engine Break-In
- AMS Performance Engine Break-In​

 

[Cinimod]

Man, that's a tough call..

I don't even know what hp I can extract from this motor, I guess it depends if I break it in properly.
I'm shooting for over 600hp and have been working on the car since last winter, the car has been on stands since then. So anyone in my position that has been scrunging, saving, and buying all the supporting mods will be very anal about it working properly.
This has been my baby and I just want it to be perfect.

Back to the e85. If I do decide to keep these injectors and do the break-in by motomans article running 93 oct, won't I have knock issues at moderate boost levels? Ie. Like 25lb's?

I am not good at explaining my thoughts on forums!

What I mean is that if I break in the engine using 93oct then how do I switch to e85 after the break in?
Just use all the 93oct up till it dies then dump e85 in the tank?
What happens when the e85 and 93oct mix a little from the gas residue in the tank?

Sorry about the book of questions, but that's why I'm a member here. All you guys are a big help.

 

[Turbobuggy]

I run e85 in my Sand Rail, I tuned it and broke it in with e85....if you mix pump gas and e85, then it wouldn't be e85 anymore (e85 has 15% gas and 85 % alcohol) and it wouldn't run correctly with either a gas tune or a e85 tune. Does that make sense?

 

[MY1GDSM]

Regardless unless your mixing it yourself not many people have a 85/15 mix right now as it is... my thought on it are sure if its 80* out by all means run E85 but I would rather not be dealing with getting a tune while breaking in a motor and cold start issues... IT'S up to you in the end though op... . Though I wouldn't be to concerned with figuring It out if you mix. I can provide a link to help out if need be though Not ATM Since Im on my phone.

 

[JohnTSI]

Gofor is dead on with his suggestion about upgrading your injectors IMO.

Break in, its all about seating the rings. We beat the hell out of our motors on the dyno or street making sure we allow the engine to decel on its own. Motor in my mile car we broke in on the dyno. And where making over 800whp 10 pulls later.

I would run e85 from the start but just be very careful to make sure you setup initail startup not to be too rich to avoid washing the cylinder walls. Get your injectors and input the proper deadtime and global setting for them on e85 and it will just b a matter of tweaking the maf.

 

[johnmarines]

Your GT3582R flows 65lbs/min which is just fine for your 1200cc injectors on regular old pump gas but you'll be maxing those injectors out on E85 on just 58lbs/min.

What is the calculatin to figuare what the injectors will max out on e85? If I currently have fic 1450's runing a 6152 turbo... at what point will my injectors max out on e85?

 

[Cinimod]

I've made up my mind, I will just break it in using e85. Now by using e85 I have to take in account that my wideband reading won't be what it says, correct? There is a formula to use for this? I think unread somewhere that because the fuel is e85 you take 15% of the actual reading?

Any suggestions on what brand injectors to get, stay away from??

 

[MY1GDSM]

Both of you should click on the link I provided in post 4

 

[gofer]

What I mean is that if I break in the engine using 93oct then how do I switch to e85 after the break in?
Just use all the 93oct up till it dies then dump e85 in the tank?
What happens when the e85 and 93oct mix a little from the gas residue in the tank?

When I did the switch from 91oct to E85 I ran a 50/50 mixture in the tank so I could get comfortable with making fuel adjustments. Then I ran that tank until the gas light came on and I filled up on 100% E85 and made more changes to see how it affected the car. Its pretty neat and you learn a lot just by doing it a few times, well worth it if you ask me.

It seems like you need to read up on E85 a bit since you plan on running the stuff and are asking pretty basic questions that have been answered before. Read these threads and if you still don't understand ask.

• E85 Pros/Cons
• E85 Fuel System Upgrades

As far as running a custom mix goes all you need to do is simple 5th grade math to figure out your injector settings, thats all it is. You can run any amount of E85 with regular old pump gas, for learning purposes I'll go ahead and show you how to find injector global settings running a 50/50 mix and 1600cc injectors.

Heres what the equation would look like to find injector global settings on any custom E85/gasoline mix in the tank:

1st STEP: ((% of Ethanol in the tank x 0.67) + % of Gasoline in the tank) x 1 = new gas ratio
2nd STEP: Actual Injector Size x new gas ratio = Injectors E85:gas mix flow rate
3rd STEP: (450 / Injectors E85:gas mix flow rate) - 1 = New fuel global settings for that tank​

So lets try out the equation on that 50/50 mix, remember a 2g GSX gas tank is 17ga so 50/50 would be 8.5ga/8.5ga mixture and we've got 1600cc injectors on the car.

1st STEP: ((0.50 x 0.670) + 0.50) x 1 = 0.835 (new gas ratio)
2nd STEP: 1600 x 0.835= 1336 (new injector flow)
3rd STEP: (450 / 1336) - 1 = -66 (injector global)
​

So on that tank of 8.5ga E85 and 8.5ga gasoline your injectors global settings would be -66%. Pretty easy but it can get to be a pain in the butt sometimes trying to figure out how much is in the tank already, thats why I just run 100% E85. Every 3,000 miles I fill up on a tank of gasoline to clean the injectors and I find myself sitting at the gas station doing some math...

I suggest getting a set of FIC injectors because the flow that they advertise is ACTUALLY what the injector flows. PTE injectors are good but a set of PTE 1000cc injectors actually flow like a 940cc injector, whereas the FIC 1000cc injector flows 1000cc. When you run E85, a big turbo, and a built engine like your going to the more fuel you can get to the motor the better.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Just be very careful to make sure you setup initail startup not to be too rich to avoid washing the cylinder walls,

This ^ was my sole reasoning behind suggesting what I did...


For all those people that can't figure some of the math Lol... .Ethanol to Gas Calculator in Excel this should help a little...Credit to Craig Starnes for the spreadsheet

 

[Turbobuggy]

When I did the switch from 91oct to E85 I ran a 50/50 mixture in the tank so I could get comfortable with making fuel adjustments. Then I ran that tank until the gas light came on and I filled up on 100% E85 and made more changes to see how it affected the car. Its pretty neat and you learn a lot just by doing it a few times, well worth it if you ask me.

It seems like you need to read up on E85 a bit since you plan on running the stuff and are asking pretty basic questions that have been answered before. Read these threads and if you still don't understand ask.

• E85 Pros/Cons
• E85 Fuel System Upgrades

As far as running a custom mix goes all you need to do is simple 5th grade math to figure out your injector settings, thats all it is. You can run any amount of E85 with regular old pump gas, for learning purposes I'll go ahead and show you how to find injector global settings running a 50/50 mix and 1600cc injectors.

Heres what the equation would look like to find injector global settings on any custom E85/gasoline mix in the tank:

1st STEP: ((% of Ethanol in the tank x 0.67) + % of Gasoline in the tank) x 1 = new gas ratio
2nd STEP: Actual Injector Size x new gas ratio = Injectors E85:gas mix flow rate
3rd STEP: (450 / Injectors E85:gas mix flow rate) - 1 = New fuel global settings for that tank​

So lets try out the equation on that 50/50 mix, remember a 2g GSX gas tank is 17ga so 50/50 would be 8.5ga/8.5ga mixture and we've got 1600cc injectors on the car.

1st STEP: ((0.50 x 0.670) + 0.50) x 1 = 0.835 (new gas ratio)
2nd STEP: 1600 x 0.835= 1336 (new injector flow)
3rd STEP: (450 / 1336) - 1 = -66 (injector global)
​

So on that tank of 8.5ga E85 and 8.5ga gasoline your injectors global settings would be -66%. Pretty easy but it can get to be a pain in the butt sometimes trying to figure out how much is in the tank already, thats why I just run 100% E85. Every 3,000 miles I fill up on a tank of gasoline to clean the injectors and I find myself sitting at the gas station doing some math...

I suggest getting a set of FIC injectors because the flow that they advertise is ACTUALLY what the injector flows. PTE injectors are good but a set of PTE 1000cc injectors actually flow like a 940cc injector, whereas the FIC 1000cc injector flows 1000cc. When you run E85, a big turbo, and a built engine like your going to the more fuel you can get to the motor the better.

Why would you need to run a tank a gas through to clean the injectors, I thought e85 runs cleaner than gas???

 

[MY1GDSM]

Some people have a problem with "Black goo" on their Injectors an it seems that gas cleans it out/off...I believe its has to do with who is suppling the E85 since I've never had the problem personally

 

[Cinimod]

Have any of you guys heard anything about a company called five-0?
They are selling 1800cc matched Bosch blank injectors online for $299.
Sounds like to good to be true.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Just go with Pte or FIC like gofer said above... .

 

[1slota]

lots of info in this thread and I appreciate ALL of the contributions. So to clear up the turbo question, the most I'm even thinking of doing is maxing out the 16g, or maybe doing the 20g compressor wheel 16g body hybrid. car's a daily driver and my main interest in e85 is just the curiosity and doing something most guys in my area aren't doing. I've lost a little interest in it, but I still tihnk it'd be fun to work with as money becomes available, and who knows? maybe someone else is needing info so let's keep this thread going.

 

[cficare68]

So I have been searching and could not find the answer to my question. I am sure it has been discussed here but I could not locate it, so I apologize in advanced for asking if it has, and if it has been could someone forward me the link.

I am wanting to setup my 92 talon up to run E85 instead of pump gas. My question though is what do I need to replace in order to do so. I already know that you should be running no less than 880cc injectors if you wanna run it and that you are going to wanna use a metal fuel filter instead of a paper one. Also that you need to replace any rubber portions of the fuel line. What all is need in order to so? How much of the stock fuel line do i need to replace in order to get this setup.

Also I do wanna add that I will be able to tune the car with my DIYAutotune ECU, as well as I already have 1000cc injectors, Wahlbro 255 Fuel Pump, Fuel Pump Rewire kit and a Venom Fuel Rail.

Any information would be appreciated.

 

[staztrx250]

you don't need the fuel rail... You pretty much have everything you need already. Maybe an AFPR the stock one with work but if you wanna be safe its a good idea. The fuel filter is probably a good idea unless you wanna change it every year. You don't need to replace the rubber parts of your fuel lines. Its a myth, modern fuel injection hose can handle e85. Its older cars that use carburetors that you have to worry about.