Max safe boost? [Merged 10-6]

[Turbolaser]

Is it safe to do the boost contol solenoid mod on a stock 1G?

 

[dsmlifestyle]

+3 on the bigger injectors, here is a chart that may help.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/244522-injectors-fuel-pumps.html

I second selling the AFCII, with your mods and that turbo, you need more control over things.

 

[spydermanX98X]

yes add dsmlink/emulator/ whatever tuning method you want that gives you better control over timing/fuel maps and get some huge injectors that will be able to take whatever turbo you throw at them so you only have to upgrade once. I bought my 1200cc's for 240$ new, I run an evo3 16g but I have link, I will never have to replace my injectors.

 

[96_charcoal_tsi]

Not the same turbo but i run a pte 6169 .82 t3 housing at 26 psi on a stock 7 bolt block. Has held just fine so far. This is on a moderate tune. I still want to push the envelope a little to see what kind of power the 7 bolt can wistand.

 

[sk8terdc24]

can my stock1990 laser bottom end handle 16psi if not whats the max it can handle

 

[srpjosh]

Well here's the final verdict on what I've done with this setup. I kept the 550cc injectors, kept the SAFC-II, and am running the turbo at 14lbs. So far spool time is around 3000rpm, and dyno numbers coming soon, still waiting on the clutch break in period. Best guess is around 400awhp.

Reasons:
I'm looking to KNOW FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE how much "power" the SAFC-II can tune for.
I'm looking to KNOW FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE how much power the PTE 550cc injectors can support.
I'm looking to KNOW FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE how much power i can get out of the stock 4g63 motor.

 

[bastard dsm]

i have pulled 450hp on dsm 450cc injectors on a boost teg. but thats a honda. i can see you making 350-400hp max on 550cc injectors if you know what your doing. your car runs a max of 15deg of timing if everything is ok and you have no knock. so you can run 20psi on your set up but, if you get really bad detonation you can kiss your hg goodbye. boost isnt really going to kill your hg, its running a lot of it and too much timing. the more timing your run the higher the cylinder pressure gets and thats what blows hg's and also detonation.

 

[1fastlaser]

Well here's the final verdict on what I've done with this setup. I kept the 550cc injectors, kept the SAFC-II, and am running the turbo at 14lbs. So far spool time is around 3000rpm, and dyno numbers coming soon, still waiting on the clutch break in period. Best guess is around 400awhp.

Reasons:
I'm looking to KNOW FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE how much "power" the SAFC-II can tune for.
I'm looking to KNOW FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE how much power the PTE 550cc injectors can support.
I'm looking to KNOW FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE how much power i can get out of the stock 4g63 motor.

Well power you can make as much as you can fool. Afcs fool the ecu into thinking there is less air going in, so in term it advances the timing...to much timing can have negative effects on power/engine. Thats why a chip to control bigger injectors is always helpful, so you can fine tune with the afc

The injectors is all depends. If you boost leak check it, and everything is good, and you have a wideband you can find out yourself. Race gas and higher fuel pressure will help, but then you gotta worry about over running the fuel pump with higher pressure. In that sense a inline 255hp would help to run higher pressure, but then you got injectors going static on you.

a stock 4g63 motor will handle 600+, it depends 100% on the tuning, maintence, and driving.

 

[habitatguy187]

At 16psi that turbo's not even close to moving (compressing) any air. Get ready to be beaten by 16G-powered cars running 18-20psi on the same fuel injectors.

This has been boggling my head for awhile now. How can a 20g at 16psi flow more air and require more fuel than a 16g at 16psi? I understand about spoolup, hence getting beat like you said, but as I understand it psi is psi, and the exact same setup at the exact same psi should flow the exact same amount of air unless the smaller turbo is doing nothing but blowing hot air. But I don't see why a gt42r couldn't run 16psi on stock injectors just like a 14b can, please explain.

 

[abaum565]

This has been boggling my head for awhile now. How can a 20g at 16psi flow more air and require more fuel than a 16g at 16psi? I understand about spoolup, hence getting beat like you said, but as I understand it psi is psi, and the exact same setup at the exact same psi should flow the exact same amount of air unless the smaller turbo is doing nothing but blowing hot air. But I don't see why a gt42r couldn't run 16psi on stock injectors just like a 14b can, please explain.

This is a totally wrong way to think. If this is the case than why do even upgrade turbos??? Why not just run our t25 @35psi, and beat 42r cars running 20psi

Let me try to explain the best I can:

There are so many factors that go into something like this. A 20g at 16si needs more fuel because it pushes a LARGER volume of air at that pressure. But a 20g will take longer to compress that air, therefor leaving your powerpand smaller, when comparing it to a 16g at 16psi. This is why jusmx referred to being beat, which is what would happen.

A 16g flows 43ish lb/min - a 42r is a 100ish lb/min turbo, so at the same psi you will need quite a bit more fuel, hence everyone telling you to get larger injectors. Then it comes down to efficiency, is a 42r efficient at 14psi...hell no, would a 16g car fly right by you with your 42r with 550's at 14psi....hell yes.

 

[habitatguy187]

This is a totally wrong way to think. If this is the case than why do even upgrade turbos??? Why not just run our t25 @35psi, and beat 42r cars running 20psi .

Because everyone knows a smaller turbo will run out of steam once you add airflow upgrades like cams/smim, but that's not what I'm asking or even the train of thought I'm thinking.

There are so many factors that go into something like this. A 20g at 16si needs more fuel because it pushes a LARGER volume of air at that pressure.

How can it at the same psi? Does the larger turbo somehow make your IC pipes, IM and cams bigger also to allow more air to flow at the same psi? I can see difference in extremely small turbos being pushed way past their efficiency island and doing nothing but blowing hot air, but that's not going to happen with a 20g and 16g both running 16psi. The way I see it a gt42r filling up a 1 gallon milkjug to 5psi will contain the exact same amount of air as a 16g filling up that same jug to 5psi, the heat (efficiency) is the only thing I see that could change things, but at the level we're talking about (low psi) I don't see how it could make a difference.

But a 20g will take longer to compress that air, therefor leaving your powerpand smaller, when comparing it to a 16g at 16psi. This is why jusmx referred to being beat, which is what would happen.

Again, I understand powerband and spoolup, which is why it's ridiculous that honda guys buy huge turbos to run 12psi.

A 16g flows 43ish lb/min - a 42r is a 100ish lb/min turbo, so at the same psi you will need quite a bit more fuel, hence everyone telling you to get larger injectors. Then it comes down to efficiency, is a 42r efficient at 14psi...hell no, would a 16g car fly right by you with your 42r with 550's at 14psi....hell yes.

It's not like the 42r flows 100lbs/min all the time, that's just what it's capable of, just like people say that you can't tell a difference between a 14b at 15psi and a 16g at 15psi, only difference is spool-up. The airflow stays the same at the same psi.......

Am I right Justin or way out in left field?

 

[abaum565]

Because everyone knows a smaller turbo will run out of steam once you add airflow upgrades like cams/smim, but that's not what I'm asking or even the train of thought I'm thinking.

Exactly...works the other also. Everyone knows there is NO steam with a large turbo at a low psi.

Sounds like you understand your own question, but don't quite understand turbo efficiency.

My answer was directed towards jusmx comment and your question about it. Thats all.

 

[habitatguy187]

Exactly...works the other also. Everyone knows there is NO steam with a large turbo at a low psi.

So why would he need larger injectors to run a larger turbo at low psi? I'm just trying to wrap my head around this whole "15psi with X turbo with flow a lot more air than 15psi with Y turbo, so you'll need bigger injectors"

Just makes no sense to me, and I've put a lot of thought into it.

 

[dsm-onster]

Psi is NOT psi. My aircompressor makes 140psi. But it flows single digit cfm. Cfm is horsepower.

A td05h 20g will make the sme power as a td05h 16g at the same psi with the same car. A td06h 20g will make more. What is the difference? The turbine. Please don't forget the other half of the turbo. BTW the OP never even mentioned the other half of his turbo. For all we know he has a t3 stage2 wheel and can run 25+ psi with 550s ant it be fine.

The turbine is what lets the air OUT of the motor. The extra power is NOT free. Turbos don't make power out of thin air (well technically they do make power out of exhaust air ). The turbine presents a giant CORK in teh exhaust system and takes the energy from the exhaust and spins the comrpessor to push more air into the motor. The compressor has a potential airflow to it. The turbine is what determines how much exits the motor since it's the bottleneck, hense how much gets into it from the compressor You can have 30psi but if the turbine is small then the boost is there but the motor can't get the other air already in it out fast enough to replace it with new air. The replacing of old air with new air is cfm or flow. Flow is horsepower, not psi. My h1c flowed 2lb/min MORE than my 16g at 2psi LESS boost (20 vs. 22psi). The 16g was NOT maxed out at all flowing 36lb/min.

We raise the boost on our stock 14b turbos instead of enlarging our turbines because the turbines are balanced to our compressors. There's more room in hotside flow to get the gases out at a higher boost and still net way more power. At 18psi you start to feel the limit. But when you swap to the 7cm^2 turbine housing, which is larger, things start to wake up again. The compressor now MUST flow more air at the same 18psi to maintain that 18psi, becasue the exhaust is letting more air exit the motor. The difference in flow at that same 18psi yields a consequential increase in horsepower. Now your 14b will flow the same air at the same psi as a 16g or td05h 20g than a regular 14b up to the choke of the compressor, which is a wapping 34lb/min, or about 330whp. Not bad for a little oem turbo with the right hotside.

This is why it's such a joke to see the scm 6031 turbo even in production. Who really thinks their 6031 (60-1 with small t3 stage3 turbine wheel and bolton housing) will ever see 60lb/min. . . Why not get the 50-trim compressor wheel save some lag becasue of rotating mass and compressor efficiency and have the same maximum flow and flow per psi.

 

[JusMX141]

This is why it's such a joke to see the scm 6031 turbo even in production. Who really thinks their 6031 (60-1 with small t3 stage3 turbine wheel and bolton housing) will ever see 60lb/min. . . Why not get the 50-trim compressor wheel save some lag becasue of rotating mass and compressor efficiency and have the same maximum flow and flow per psi.

SO TRUE.

Back when Ricky (dacowgod) was running his 6031E in a bolt-on housing, he wasn't seeing anything over 48lb/min at just shy of 30psi. That's pathetic considering the airflow-generating potential of the compressor wheel.

He switched to a .82 a/r T3 housing on the same turbo (along with a T3 manifold) and picked up almost 10lb/min of airflow out of the same turbo. It literally flabbergasts me that PTE actually builds the 6031 in a DSM bolt-on turbine housing. What is their potential market when a well-tuned 50-trim will make the same airflow and spool a couple hundred RPMs faster?

 

[habitatguy187]

Thanks dsm-onster, I understand it perfectly now. Basically the bigger hotside is like freeing up exhaust restriction, it lets the motor breathe better, got it. I couldn't understand that for the longest.

 

[dsm-onster]

No problem. That is truely why I'm here. I actually like helping people

And Justin's example supports this understanding so much. As well, my personal AGP rs60t was a turd. Laggy and flowed only 51-52 lb/min at over 30psi, with big cams and plenty of rpms, and NO exhaust. 60-1, to4E compressor cover; but t31 turbine wheel with a BEP bolton housing. The only advantage the hotside had WAS the bep bolton housing. Maybe the only reason why it flowed about 4lb/min more than Ricky's PTE bolton 60-1. 4lb/min is a BIG difference, but still low 50s lb/min is terrible for such a potent compressor. Serious this it to PTE: rid yourselfs of that terrible bolton casting; it's worth the investment to change the molding by now.

 

[bwhite]

I have a 7-blade hx-35w in its orginal form 12cm twin scroll t3 housing. I have been looking everywhere searching for the max safe boost level of this turbo. I have heard 33 psi, but I believe it was in its bolt-on BEP housing.

 

[kqodprez]

First question, what are you logging/tuning with?

Second, what are your mods?

Based on those 2 questions we would be able to better help you.

 

[4g63turbo84]

i would like to know as will i will be doing a hx-35 set up soon

my mods are:
1. hx-35 in a bep housing
2. built block 9:0:1 pistons
3. 264/272 cams with bc spring
4. 1000 injectors
5. dsmlink v3 or dsmlink lite v3 not sure yet

 

[turbotalon1g]

I have seen diesel guys run these at over 40 psi no problem I have had mine to 37psi.

You will be maxing about 36-40, so you will see the turbo will handle whatever you can throw at it.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

Like turbotalon1g said turbo diesel trucks work these turbos over 40 psi and I'm pretty sure some people have ran over 40 psi on DSM too. However, in order to do this you have to the proper setup to reach these boost levels which I can tell that you're pretty far from plus an internal wastegate actuator may limit the boost.

 

[4g63turbo84]

well my set up is going on my DD so I'm thinking I'm only going to push it to 20-24 psi, that will be one fun DD

 

[LiquidX]

It's all in the build of the parts, the tune and the fuel. You can have the best tune and fuel in the world but be limited to only "x" psi because your rods are only rated at say 350hp.

The turbo itself will handle what you can dish out but your tune and internals may say otherwise.

 

[bwhite]

I plan on using ecmlink v3. I have all supporting mods. The car will not be a daily driver. Im looking to break the stock short block record . I will also be running dks 272 cams, and possibly a smim or extrude honed stock intake. Thanks for the info so far.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

The stock short block record is 10.40@141 and I wouldn't suggest that unless you're a pro tuner plus there is no way to guarantee you'll have a chance of breaking that record. It all depends on the condition of the block and how far you can take it. I'd suggest you go to a external wastegate too.