Holset HX-35 Oiling

[JusMX141]

The point I was making was that if the first number in *5W30* truly has nothing to do with the way the oil performs when hot, why would Mitsubishi only specify it for use in temps below 60*f and not above? Seems unusual to me.

I just use 40 oil because that is what the holset is built for and guys who push their cars to 500+whp use 40 and 50 oil.

Agreed, 100%.

 

[chrisb33]

well. I just use 40 oil because that is what the holset is built for and guys who push their cars to 500+whp use 40 and 50 oil. I plan on that. So that is what I use. I don't know what's right or wrong.

Engine smoothness is related to lifter pump up. I'll bet the thinner cold start oil is pumping up the lifters better. Hence, no more lifter tick at startup and smoother revs. I don't know that you should change. I've also heard that thicker oil, 10w-40 vs. 10w30, does a better job pumping up the lifters too.

Back when I ws using rotella T 10w-40 dino oil, I changeed every 3K religiously. I changed basd on the color of the oil. Now, with the synthetic oil the color doesn't reach the same tint until 4500+ miles. If I'm understanding GST95 correctly, if you go to a higher weight (the second number) then you should go to a lower weight cold start number (the first number) to achieve similar cold start lubrication qualities as the lower weight oil from which you are changing.

I change my oil every 5k km religiously also. I guess i see the logic on the thicker oil for holsets coz of their bigger thrust bearings.

now question is, you mentioned that youre going to run diesel oil in your engine that is recommended for the holset. Do you foresee any advantage/disadvantage using diesel synthetic oil vs. gasoline synthetic oil given the same viscosity range? Im just worried that diesel oil might damage gasoline engines. If thickness is required for holsets, why not use oil for gasoline engine with the correct viscosity recommended by holset?

just trying to understand coz we all know that oil in our engine is like blood in our bodies. And im rebuilding my 3rd engine and i really really want to cover all my bases if you know what i mean. Dont want to rebuild another engine sooner than normal. EXPENSIVE!!!!

thanks again.

chris b

 

[dsm-onster]

The only difference between diesel truck oil and car oil IS the weight. The higher weight means that it is primarily used for diesel applications. There is no special additive or removal of something that makes one oil a diesel oil and another oil a gasoline oil. Infact, on the back of the 10w-40 rotella T bottle, the oil is recommended for highperformance gasoline and turbo gasoline motors. Not jsut tractors and turbodiesel trucks

 

[chrisb33]

The only difference between diesel truck oil and car oil IS the weight. The higher weight means that it is primarily used for diesel applications. There is no special additive or removal of something that makes one oil a diesel oil and another oil a gasoline oil. Infact, on the back of the 10w-40 rotella T bottle, the oil is recommended for highperformance gasoline and turbo gasoline motors. Not jsut tractors and turbodiesel trucks

Gotcha. Thanks Matt. I'd probably go with the mobil 1 0w40 better on cold start, still thick enough to meet high temp protection plus recommended viscosity of holset.

chris b

p.s. youve got PM

 

[need2boostpsi]

more on this restrictor, i bought the oil feed line from theturbotrader.com, due i need a restrictor inline with that feed line, or is it designed with a restrictor? very confused about this restrictor. I'm half tempted to just run my feed line from the head and not worry about high oil pressure.

 

[andy4g63]

That is a good choice chrisb33. Keep in mind also, that Mobil1 is made from group 4 synthetic base/ also in this group are AMSOIL and Royal Purple-in their higher end race oils/. May be there are some others, but I don't know. In difference of Castrol, which "synthetic" oil is made from a group 3 synthetic base, which also includes mineral oil and is much cheaper.

But because Mobil lost a suit vs. Castrol and this enables Castrol to label their oil as synthetic. May be in this category are some other companies too. So there is a diference between synthetics.

On the other hand I highly recommend to anyone to change their oils on 1500 miles or less intervals.It is only about $20 and totally worth it.These cars are turbo and this oil is constantly going thru the CHRA and the temp there is about 235*F or so. Even if you have oil cooler is still very hot. I allways change my oil every 800-1000 miles. I use regular mineral oil 10W30/Castrol.

 

[dsm-onster]

I was specifially told not to change synthetic oil as frequent as dino oil and definately not before 2000miles. Something about the oil not having time to break down to it's best state. These are turbo guys who told me this, btw. If you have a good pcv system, which prevents lots of soot settling in the oil, and you have a good oil filter, I don't see why you need to change the oil that frequently. . .

 

[need2boostpsi]

who makes an oil feed line from the head for a holset?

 

[19BLACKGST98]

I use to have the oil fed to my FP3052 from the head but I am moving it to the oil filter housing and just using the FP filter/restrictor. It seems like the restrictor would work in you situation as well.

 

[andy4g63]

who makes an oil feed line from the head for a holset?

Don't know, but any line that is banjo fitting on one side and -4 on the other, should od the trick.

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - Oil Feedline Kit (Head Location): Mitsubishi Eclipse 90-99

 

[need2boostpsi]

Don't know, but any line that is banjo fitting on one side and -4 on the other, should od the trick.

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - Oil Feedline Kit (Head Location): Mitsubishi Eclipse 90-99

thats the one, it even has an option for the holset fitting!

 

[Morphius]

I've got around 300K on mits motors running 20W-50, never any issues. Changed every 4-5K. My 5.9L cummins with 215K is running 15W40 changed every 10K. The Z gets 5W30 Mobil 1 changed every 5500 miles. Between 5400 and 5600 miles the mobil 1 goes from honey color to molasis color.

Larry L and Spidey... post in the Results only thread. Even if you don't have logs, dyno results or otherwise, info on spool vs rpm is useful. Provide as much info on your overall setup as you can. Please.

Someone that's run off the filter housing, can you post some pics. Looking at one, there are 2-3 different ports, which one is used? Does it matter? I've not taken one apart and I'm sure most here haven't either.

 

[GST95]

well. I just use 40 oil because that is what the holset is built for and guys who push their cars to 500+whp use 40 and 50 oil. I plan on that. So that is what I use. I don't know what's right or wrong.

Engine smoothness is related to lifter pump up. I'll bet the thinner cold start oil is pumping up the lifters better. Hence, no more lifter tick at startup and smoother revs. I don't know that you should change. I've also heard that thicker oil, 10w-40 vs. 10w30, does a better job pumping up the lifters too.

Back when I ws using rotella T 10w-40 dino oil, I changeed every 3K religiously. I changed basd on the color of the oil. Now, with the synthetic oil the color doesn't reach the same tint until 4500+ miles. If I'm understanding GST95 correctly, if you go to a higher weight (the second number) then you should go to a lower weight cold start number (the first number) to achieve similar cold start lubrication qualities as the lower weight oil from which you are changing.

So maybe me running 20w-40 isn't as good as 5w-40. I want the same cold start lubrication as 10w-30. But when the oil reaches operating tem (when I'll do a run), then oil will be thicker. However, since there is more spread between those numbers, I'll have to change more frequently. The higher weight oil breaks down faster. Though it initially is much stronger for high heat applications, apparently I'll have to change it more frequently to make using the higher weight worthwhile since it could break down to below the 10w-30 weight much quicker. . . Am I right?

You are right, but since you are most likely talking about synthetic oils with wide spread multigrade (5w40) you wont nessesarily have to change your oil more frequently then the usual 3k mile. Synthetics need less viscosity modifiers to achieve the wide spread, so they dont degrade as fast as a mineral oil of the same spread. Only an oil analysis would really be able to tell you if the oil was too degraded though.

As for synthetic brands, i dont recommend Mobil 1. I know alot of people swear by it, but i personally dont like it. Id consider Amsoil, Royal Purple, and Redline. I use all 3 for different things.

I found a couple of links that better explain what im saying. Its too technical for me to fully explain and im by no means a biochemist.
If you want a short summery
http://www.freewebs.com/james182/oil.htm

Or, if you have alot of time this Dr Haas guy really explains alot. His writings are all over, but this is from the forum where he posts.
FerrariChat.com - FAQ: Motor Oil Articles by Dr. Ali E. Haas (AEHaas)

 

[chrisb33]

I change oils every 3k miles or when the mobil 1 oil turns from honey brown to fried brown sugar color whichever comes first. I think it depends on how hard i drive the car.

I choose mobil 1 because it's the best oil available in our country. No royal purple nor amsoil nor redline. We do have shell, castrol, but i dont trust them. I tried using them but they seem to discolor faster, plus the engine doesnt seem to be as smooth as when i use mobil 1 given the same viscosity and all are fully synthetic (as stated in the oil container at least). Again this is subjective on my part. But we do have the "oh" so over highly overrated MOTUL which costs an arm and a leg. Too much to pay for oil IMHO.

anyway i think we're being off topic here already

To the OP. As previously mentioned here and some parts in the holset part 4 and 5, holsets needs a restrictor if feeding it from the OFH. When i was consulting with matt and justin for the size of the restrictor they recommended to me 0.062" restrictor. I have no Balance Shafts and no oil squiters therefore my engine pumps a higher oil pressure.

and if you dont want any hassles, just feed the hx35 from the head.

hope this helps.

chris b

 

[GST95]

I change oils every 3k miles or when the mobil 1 oil turns from honey brown to fried brown sugar color whichever comes first. I think it depends on how hard i drive the car.

I choose mobil 1 because it's the best oil available in our country. No royal purple nor amsoil nor redline. We do have shell, castrol, but i dont trust them. I tried using them but they seem to discolor faster, plus the engine doesnt seem to be as smooth as when i use mobil 1 given the same viscosity and all are fully synthetic (as stated in the oil container at least). Again this is subjective on my part. But we do have the "oh" so over highly overrated MOTUL which costs an arm and a leg. Too much to pay for oil IMHO.

anyway i think we're being off topic here already

To the OP. As previously mentioned here and some parts in the holset part 4 and 5, holsets needs a restrictor if feeding it from the OFH. When i was consulting with matt and justin for the size of the restrictor they recommended to me 0.062" restrictor. I have no Balance Shafts and no oil squiters therefore my engine pumps a higher oil pressure.

and if you dont want any hassles, just feed the hx35 from the head.

hope this helps.

chris b

Well, if thats the best you can get it will have to do. I dont think its a bad oil, i just dont like it.

Back on topic. Ive fed my PTE scm6031 off my head for 5 years with no restrictor, my wh1c off my head for a couple months and now my hx40. None of which had any more shaft play when i took them off compared to when i put them on. I have balance shafts and oil squirters, FWIW.

 

[dsm-onster]

Good stuff GST95. Makes me feel more confident in my next oil purchase.

I agree with Morphius. You and the others need to post in the holset results only page. Just your mods list and any logs or confirmed spool speed will do, etc. A description of spool characteristics will be something good. We all know what these turbos CAN do on the dyno, but things like 70-90 times at any boost level, flow numbers at any boost level, spool, transient response, etc. would be very useful and Morphius is encouraging this to be posted, not just dyno sheets and 1/4 mile times. You can always go back and edit your post when you get to the track or the shop.

 

[chrisb33]

sorry. back to being off topic and to the oil viscosity thing.

I just read the article Dr. Haas (link posted by gst) and let me see if i understand this correctly. This is a very good article that actually increased and verified my knowledge on oils and might benefit the others too.

To sum up: (on synthetics only)

1. Synthetics are superior vs. mineral based oil (reasons explained in the article)
2. Edit: Oil gets THICKER during low temps and THINNER at high temp
3. Most engine wear and tear occur during cold start. The THINNER the oil viscosity the better
4. most engines only requires a viscosity of 10 during drive around town condition - 212F (i guess this is where us dd and weekend warriors fall in)
5. Multi-grade viscosity oils e.g. 5W30 is better than straight 30 viscosity.
6. all multi-grade viscosity achieve a viscosity 10 at 212F but a lower 1st number e.g. 0w30 vs. 5w30 produces a THINNER viscosity during cold start up.
7. It is a misconception that it is recommended to use thicker oil when oil leaks through your gaskets. Solution is change your gasket! Again rule of thumb, the thinner the oil, the better.
8. The thickness of moving oil is measured in centiStokes or cS. So check the typical properties in choosing oil. focus on lower temp cs figures. the lower the better.
9. look for SL and SJ rating in choosing oils and not based on viscosity alone.

having reviewed all these, i went ahead in checking the mobil 1 website (my preferred brand). using the summary above, i immediately thought that i was on the right track in choosing the right viscosity for my engine which is 0w40. This is based on item number 6 above. it is has SL and SJ approval. However as i went to review its cs properties (see item number 8 above) and compared it to the 5w20. It seems like although 5w20 has a higher 1st number value vs. 0w40, the cs properties on low temp on the 5w20 is significantly lower vs. 0w40: cs@40*c - 48.3 and cs@40*c - 78.3 respectively.

having said all these. I think im going try 5w20 instead of 0w40 and see the improvement in cold start and check oil pressure if it is still within range when driving. I just hope we do have 5w20's available here in the PH.

Thanks GST.

 

[JusMX141]

Here's some interesting info that I'd like to add regarding viscosity:

I break in every engine I rebuild with non-detergent SAE 20 motor oil for 50 miles. Whether that's right or wrong by anyone else's standards is beside the point, I don't care....it works well for me. By the time I reach the 50 mile mark, that 20W oil is so badly broken down that the oil light will come on at idle when the engine's hot.

 

[GST95]

sorry. back to being off topic and to the oil viscosity thing.

I just read the article Dr. Haas (link posted by gst) and let me see if i understand this correctly. This is a very good article that actually increased and verified my knowledge on oils and might benefit the others too.

To sum up: (on synthetics only)

1. Synthetics are superior vs. mineral based oil (reasons explained in the article)
2. Oil gets THINNER during low temps and THICKER at high temp
3. Most engine wear and tear occur during cold start. The THINNER the oil viscosity the better
4. most engines only requires a viscosity of 10 during drive around town condition - 212F (i guess this is where us dd and weekend warriors fall in)
5. Multi-grade viscosity oils e.g. 5W30 is better than straight 30 viscosity.
6. all multi-grade viscosity achieve a viscosity 10 at 212F but a lower 1st number e.g. 0w30 vs. 5w30 produces a THINNER viscosity during cold start up.
7. It is a misconception that it is recommended to use thicker oil when oil leaks through your gaskets. Solution is change your gasket! Again rule of thumb, the thinner the oil, the better.
8. The thickness of moving oil is measured in centiStokes or cS. So check the typical properties in choosing oil. focus on lower temp cs figures. the lower the better.
9. look for SL and SJ rating in choosing oils and not based on viscosity alone.

having reviewed all these, i went ahead in checking the mobil 1 website (my preferred brand). using the summary above, i immediately thought that i was on the right track in choosing the right viscosity for my engine which is 0w40. This is based on item number 6 above. it is has SL and SJ approval. However as i went to review its cs properties (see item number 8 above) and compared it to the 5w20. It seems like although 5w20 has a higher 1st number value vs. 0w40, the cs properties on low temp on the 5w20 is significantly lower vs. 0w40: cs@40*c - 48.3 and cs@40*c - 78.3 respectively.

having said all these. I think im going try 5w20 instead of 0w40 and see the improvement in cold start and check oil pressure if it is still within range when driving. I just hope we do have 5w20's available here in the PH.

Thanks GST.

1. yes
2.no. Oil gets thicker cold and thinner hot
3.yes
4.yes
5.yes
6.all 30 weight oils have a viscosity of 10ish at 100*C(212*F), I believe 20 weight is in the 8ish range, 40 weight is 14-15ish, 50 weight is 18-19ish, IIRC
yes on the lower the first number the better. Even 0w is too thick at start up, but much better then 10w
7.yes and yes, the thinnest oil that meets the requirements for your engine
8.yes you want high numbers in the lowest temp range
9. some new oils are SM now

If you dont have balance shafts you will probably be able to use a 20 weight oil. You should have enough volume from your oil pump to keep the pressure where it needs to be as long as it doesnt constantly get too hot. If your oil does constantly get real hot, 20 might not be your best choice. Id suggest getting an oil analysis done to be sure it isnt getting too degraded when its time to change it.


Dsm-onster: I havent posted in the results post yet because its suppose to be for finished setups. I dont have any exhaust, so i dont consider it a finished setup yet. I cant really get on it too much without it. If the weather isnt too terrible ill get that finished so i can put the o2 sensor back on the car and ill get some rough numbers with my ipod touch dynolicious. The tracks up here are closed.

 

[chrisb33]

1. yes
2.no. Oil gets thicker cold and thinner hot
3.yes
4.yes
5.yes
6.all 30 weight oils have a viscosity of 10ish at 100*C(212*F), I believe 20 weight is in the 8ish range, 40 weight is 14-15ish, 50 weight is 18-19ish, IIRC
yes on the lower the first number the better. Even 0w is too thick at start up, but much better then 10w
7.yes and yes, the thinnest oil that meets the requirements for your engine
8.yes you want high numbers in the lowest temp range
9. some new oils are SM now

If you dont have balance shafts you will probably be able to use a 20 weight oil. You should have enough volume from your oil pump to keep the pressure where it needs to be as long as it doesnt constantly get too hot. If your oil does constantly get real hot, 20 might not be your best choice. Id suggest getting an oil analysis done to be sure it isnt getting too degraded when its time to change it.


Dsm-onster: I havent posted in the results post yet because its suppose to be for finished setups. I dont have any exhaust, so i dont consider it a finished setup yet. I cant really get on it too much without it. If the weather isnt too terrible ill get that finished so i can put the o2 sensor back on the car and ill get some rough numbers with my ipod touch dynolicious. The tracks up here are closed.

Whoops. Got confused on item number 2. got it mixed up. Thanks for the correction. Edit done.

GST: kindly confirm regarding item number 8. I reviewed the article again and by my interpretation, we're actually supposed to look for the lowest cs number at the lower temp range. thanks.

chris b

 

[UGOT8UP]

Tim's Turbos - Turbo Rebuilding - DSM Oil line Install Kit

Would this be an idea setup for the holset oil setup??

What sould I do for the water lines??

 

[jspec]

Tim's Turbos - Turbo Rebuilding - DSM Oil line Install Kit

Would this be an idea setup for the holset oil setup??

What sould I do for the water lines??

Neat setup. Would have saved me some time. No waterlines for the Holset! Just loop the lines.

 

[UGOT8UP]

Do you know if it feed's from the head or the filter base??

 

[Black_Bullet]

You are right, but since you are most likely talking about synthetic oils with wide spread multigrade (5w40) you wont nessesarily have to change your oil more frequently then the usual 3k mile. Synthetics need less viscosity modifiers to achieve the wide spread, so they dont degrade as fast as a mineral oil of the same spread. Only an oil analysis would really be able to tell you if the oil was too degraded though.

As for synthetic brands, i dont recommend Mobil 1. I know alot of people swear by it, but i personally dont like it. Id consider Amsoil, Royal Purple, and Redline. I use all 3 for different things.

I found a couple of links that better explain what im saying. Its too technical for me to fully explain and im by no means a biochemist.
If you want a short summery
http://www.freewebs.com/james182/oil.htm

Or, if you have alot of time this Dr Haas guy really explains alot. His writings are all over, but this is from the forum where he posts.
FerrariChat.com - FAQ: Motor Oil Articles by Dr. Ali E. Haas (AEHaas)

Wow, you can learn a lot from these holset threads now days

Well damn, Ive always ran Full synthetic Mobil1 15w50 in my 6bolt for the past 2 years, I dont have balance shafts and I ported the relief hole because the oil pressure used to be high enough to cause oil to seep out of the oil cap on the valve cover.
I figured id run thick oils due to blow by, high mileage, and more importantly because I do not have a oil cooler on this car like stock, so I wanted more protection for high rpm racing and even for extended highway driving etc.
Ive always tapped my turbo off the head like stock. My 16g never had any issues due to oil feed or return. It started developing shaft play after running over 20 psi with boost leaks. My cars down for the next several months as its under the knife for a new motor.
I am planning on running a hx35-or hx40 and figured id just tap to the head like how i've always done it but still have more research to do.

As far as oil, maybe on the new motor ill just run 10w40 or 5w40 full synthetic if what the link says is true. You guys didnt specify which oil is better on a high powered car that doesnt have a oil cooler, im sure that plays a role in what oil to choose. I mean I always let it fully warm up before I take it above 3k rpm. Since I live in FL its hot, i liked the thicker oils too assuming that by the time they break down they wont be water like if I was running a 10w30. I was changing my oil every 3k, but it would burn a full qrt during that 3k. Well guess I need to be doing more research on that too.

 

[GST95]

Wow, you can learn a lot from these holset threads now days

Well damn, Ive always ran Full synthetic Mobil1 15w50 in my 6bolt for the past 2 years, I dont have balance shafts and I ported the relief hole because the oil pressure used to be high enough to cause oil to seep out of the oil cap on the valve cover.
I figured id run thick oils due to blow by, high mileage, and more importantly because I do not have a oil cooler on this car like stock, so I wanted more protection for high rpm racing and even for extended highway driving etc.
Ive always tapped my turbo off the head like stock. My 16g never had any issues due to oil feed or return. It started developing shaft play after running over 20 psi with boost leaks. My cars down for the next several months as its under the knife for a new motor.
I am planning on running a hx35-or hx40 and figured id just tap to the head like how i've always done it but still have more research to do.

As far as oil, maybe on the new motor ill just run 10w40 or 5w40 full synthetic if what the link says is true. You guys didnt specify which oil is better on a high powered car that doesnt have a oil cooler, im sure that plays a role in what oil to choose. I mean I always let it fully warm up before I take it above 3k rpm. Since I live in FL its hot, i liked the thicker oils too assuming that by the time they break down they wont be water like if I was running a 10w30. I was changing my oil every 3k, but it would burn a full qrt during that 3k. Well guess I need to be doing more research on that too.

I dont run an oil cooler either. Just remember that your coolant will warm up faster then your oil. Just because your coolant is up to temp doesnt mean that your oil is. Ill be switching to 0w40 this season. At a certain temp, there really isnt much difference in thickness of the different weights though. I dont have an oil temp gauge in my car, but thinner oil will cool easier. The only way to know for sure that your oil isnt getting too degraded is by having it tested. I havent tested any of mine in a while because i dont drive my car much anymore, so i usually just change my oil every few months or so which might only be 1000-2000 miles.