Holset HX-35 Oiling

[ceedawg]

No balance shafts. No oil squirteres either. I have an in-cockpit electrical gauge which read through the roof until I ported my oil filter housing piston relief hole. Now I see about 20psi at idle (1250rpm) and it maxes out at about 80psi at redline (8000rpm).

Yes, the turbo is being fed from the clean side of the oil filter housing.

Now that's what I'm talking about,esecially at idle. Must spool up nice off idle as well huh?

 

[90 GSX]

I am installing my hx-35 this weekend. I bought an FP oil restrictor/filter and a feed line from the turbo trader. The FP restrictor is supposed to have a .100 orifice but it turns out that it has a .125" orifice. I have no balance shafts or oil squirters on my car. Is that restrictor going to be enough if I get oil from the filter housing? Does it need to be smaller? Should I get oil from the head? What do you guys think I should do in this situation.

 

[Spidey]

I'm getting oil from the head with mine, without balance shafts, with squirters, and an unported relief hole, and no restrictor for the feed line. The oil inlet of my HX-35 itself tapers down pretty small, I saw no need for a restrictor, and I have not had any smoking, and spool-up is fine as well.

 

[dsm-onster]

What I think really is best to do is to measure your oil pressure at the head now. If it passes the holset requirements posted above, run it from the head. Primarily, is there at least 10 psi at idle and is there at least 30 psi at engine load (spool up).

I guarantee your block has too much oil pressure at the filter housing. So if your supply from the head doesn't meet the requirements, get a restrictor and check pressure with the turbo installed. Fine tune your restrictor. Too much oil pressure not only blows oil through the seals, it degrades spool speed.

 

[90 GSX]

How am I supposed to check the oil pressure with the turbo installed? Put a Tee in the line with a gauge on the end? I don't even have an oil pressure gauge. Do I need to buy one or is there one I can rent from a store or something.

I spent 70 bucks on this damn FP restrictor and its not even the advertised size. From what I am reading, the restrictor shlould be about half this size. I don't have time this weekend to make a fitting with a nitrous jet. What can I do here? Is there any way to create a restrictor or make this one smaller without making it ghetto?

I need instructions!!! Haha. This is the last piece of the project that I haven't tied down.

 

[Larry L]

Ive been running my HX-35 off the oil filter housing for 3 years, and its been fine. Bal Shafts in

 

[ceedawg]

Ive been running my HX-35 off the oil filter housing for 3 years, and its been fine. Bal Shafts in

Well here is the key wrd that fortunately allows you to do that: BALANCE Shafts!

 

[jspec]

Does the fitting thread into the turbo or the oil filter housing? I believe I am using a 4 an feed line but what is the thread pattern of the holset and the oil filre housing.

 

[Mike1992]

Thread fitting on the Holset oil inlet is 12mm x 1.5"
EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - Turbo Fitting : -4 AN Male to Male

Not sure about the oil filter housing fitting.

 

[GST95]

12. Oil pressure of 150 kPa (20 lbf/in2) must show at the oil inlet within 3 - 4 seconds of engine firing to prevent damage to turbocharger bearing system. A flexible supply pipe is recommended.
13. The minimum oil pressure when the engine is on load must be 210 kPa (30 lbf/in2). Maximum permissible operating pressure is 500 kPa (72 lbf/in2) although 600 kPa (88 lbf/in2) is permitted during cold start up. Under idling conditions pressure should not fall below 70 kPa (10 lbf/in2).
14. Recommended oil flows for the turbochargers are 2 litre/min at idle and 3 litre/min above maximum torque speed.[/INDENT]

Since these numbers are most likely based on 15w40 oil used in most diesels, how do you think these numbers will change for a thinner viscositiy oil like what we use?

 

[JusMX141]

Since these numbers are most likely based on 15w40 oil used in most diesels, how do you think these numbers will change for a thinner viscositiy oil like what we use?

Lighter viscosity, like the 15W50 that I use?

 

[andy4g63]

Who sells oil restrictor fittings for HOLSETS ONLY ???
Thanks,Andy.

 

[Mike1992]

Who sells oil restrictor fittings for HOLSETS ONLY ???
Thanks,Andy.

If you really want a restrictor for your holset, buy the fitting from Extremepsi that I posted above and do this. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...or-garrett-channel-bearing-non-bb-turbos.html

Worked great on my HX-35 setup.

 

[GST95]

Lighter viscosity, like the 15W50 that I use?

I run 5w30 and if/when i remove my balance shafts ill probably switch to 5w20 to help keep the pressure down. I cant think of a scenario that i would want to run a 50 weight oil unless my bearing clearances were way loose, but everybody has their own preferences.

 

[JusMX141]

The higher film strength offers better protection from heat...especially for the turbo. I believe 5W30 is great for something that is strictly daily-driven, but for a vehicle that is turbocharged and sees as much abuse as our cars do (especially an engine with higher mileage that suffers from blowby, allowing gasoline to contaminate the oil) there's no doubt that 15W50 is the way to go. Why do you think Diesels run 15W40 to begin with?

 

[dsm-onster]

Exactly. I run 10w-40 Shell Rotella T synthetic. On the back of the container: made for turbo diesel trucks and high performance and/or turbocharged cars.

 

[JusMX141]

I've contemplated running Diesel oil in my cars, and I probably will once I rebuild the engine(s).

The reason I don't run it now is because the high detergent Diesel oils have been known to loosen carbon deposits in higher mileage engines, causing the carbon to fall to the oil pan and get stuck in the oil pump screen. If you're starting with a clean engine, however, the Diesel oil will keep it squeaky clean!

 

[GST95]

The higher film strength offers better protection from heat...especially for the turbo. I believe 5W30 is great for something that is strictly daily-driven, but for a vehicle that is turbocharged and sees as much abuse as our cars do (especially an engine with higher mileage that suffers from blowby, allowing gasoline to contaminate the oil) there's no doubt that 15W50 is the way to go. Why do you think Diesels run 15W40 to begin with?

You might want to read up on fluid dynamics a little bit. Film strength does not protect against heat, it protects agains friction that causes heat and wear. My engine is a 136k mile engine that has been seeing alot of abuse since i got the car at 65k miles. It has been run at 20+psi the whole time ive owned the car. The last time i did a compression test it was still 150-155, it still holds the same oil pressure and none of the turbos that have been on it have had any shaft play. When i first got it i would run synthetic 10w30 until i learned more about oil then i switched to 5w30.

The general rule of thumb is 10psi/1krpm. You do this by matching your oil to your engine. If you have too much oil pressure, you need a lower weight oil. The first number in oil only refers to its thickness when cold which is a function of its additive package, so you are really only talking about 4 different weights(20, 30, 40, 50) at operating temp. 0w30, 5w30, 10w30 and sae 30 all have the same thickness at 200*(operating temp). Same goes for the other weights. The lower the first number is, the closer it is to the same thickness hot or cold. This is why you can get some synthetics in 0wXX weight.

An engines oiling system is designed around a specific oil weight, usually 30. If you reduce that engines oiling needs, ie block off oil passages, it still tries to pump the same volume through less passages creating too high oil pressure. This is why most guys port out the oil bypass hole. If you reduce the restriction, ie thinner oil, you bring your oil pressure back to where it is suppose to be and also increase the volume of oil that is going through the remaining passages (better then pumping it back into the pan, IMHO). Increased volume increases film strength.

Unless your oil clearences are looser then they are suppose to be, ie high miles, you might actually decrease film strength with thicker oil because you have less volume going through the passages. This senario can starve the bearings of its needed volume of oil to keep its film and result in metal to metal contact.

Volume increases film strength, not pressure. Also, an oils makeup is more important than weight. I use Royal Purple that uses better base stock and better additive packages. Both provide better film strength over mineral oil. My car runs higher oil pressure then any other dsm that ive had, so i continue to use 30 weight oil.

As for why most diesel mineral oils are 15w40, the 15 is from its additive package. Diesel requires alot of detergents to clean the particulates left in the oil and chemicals to help suspend all the soot produced in a diesel. These additives tend to be thicker cold. At operating temp its the same thickness as any other 40 weight oil though. There are some synthetics that are 5w40 and 0w40 that can be used in diesels

 

[JusMX141]

Good info.

However, I've spent most of my time hanging around with drag race engine builders who run Valvoline SAE 50 in everything they build (engines which are built to MUCH tighter tolerances than your average street car). When drag racers start using and endorsing 0W40, I'll use that.

The lower weight oils of today (5W20, 0W40) are all designed for use in specific engines. The engines that require such a thin oil have low-tension oil rings which are designed to reduce piston drag and increase fuel mileage. If you use a thick oil in an engine that calls for 5W20, the thick oil will stick to the cylinder walls and the oil ring will pass right over it. The result is that the engine will burn oil....as much as a quart in a couple hundred miles.

I wouldn't dump 0W40 into just any diesel engine, nor would I use 5W30 in my cars.

I'm actually looking at the oil recommendations for our cars as I type this. From what I see here, all Turbo model Eclipses require 10W30 in all climates- 5W30 is only recommended in climates that do not exceed 60*f. It goes on to state that "5W30 may be used only in cold climate areas where the lowest temperature is below -10*f". From what I'm reading here, if you're running 5W30, it's too thin for our engines and may cause damage. Why should I trust you over the manufacturer of the engine?

Again, thanks for the great info....I'm choosing to ignore it and use what's proven.

 

[GST95]

There is a big difference between tight tolerances and tight clearances. Tolerances have to do with how close something is to what its suppose to be. Clearances have to do with something being a certain distance away from something else. You can have tight tolerances on something with loose clearances.

I think you are missing what i said about an oils weight. You grouped 5w20 with 0w40. The oils weight is the second number, not the first. The first number is only important at temperatures below operating temperature. Most people think that oil is thin when its hot. They should really think of it as oil is thick when it is cold. Too thick to lubricate as it is designed to do because it is designed to work at its operating temp. The lower the first number the thinner it is when cold which makes it closer to its operating temp thickness at below operating temp.

Here is a link to Royal Purple's oil data sheet for their motor oil
http://www.royal-purple.net/royalmotoroil.pdf
Notice that straight 30, 5w30, and 10w30 all have basicly the same thickness at 100*C? Actually the 5w30, the supposed thinnest by most peoples accounts, is the thickest at 100*C. Notice how much more the cold pumping numbers are for the 5w30 are compared to even the 10w30 numbers.

If it was posable to get a mineral 0w40, it would have too many additives to get that much of a spread and wouldnt maintain its weight well after heat cycling. An oils base doesnt really wear out, its the additives that wear out. The additives is what gets you the lower first number. If you could keep your old clean and keep adding back its additives that get depleted, you would hardly ever need to change your oil. Synthetics are made up totally different. They maintian their consistancy far better then mineral based oils, so you can have a weight spread like a 0w40. Synthetic oils dont need as much additives to manipulate its cold weight to be thinner.


The recommendation of oil you are talking about for our cars is most likely based on oil that has a SH (or SG) rating, which was the standard back in 93. It is also for mineral oil. Todays oil is SL (or SM) rated and much better. I would even guess that our current mineral oils are as good as most synthetics from the early to mid 90s.

This is starting to get way off topic though. Im not trying to change your mind on what oil you should put in your car. Put in whatever you want. Ive chose what i run after alot of research. Im happy with it and its not going to cause anything to break or whatever. An oils weight has much less to do with its lubricity or its clinginess then its makup.

 

[JusMX141]

I'm truly not convinced that today's mineral oils are better than the synthetics of the '90's. If that's the case we wouldn't be having trouble with using todays oils that don't contain zinc ruining engines with flat tappet cams.

If 5W30 and 10W30 are as similar (when hot) as you're claiming, why would Mitsubishi specify NOT to use 5W30 in climates above 60*f? It shouldn't matter if both oils have the same heat retention and wear protection.

I'm not going to sit here and compare Hot Dogs and Sausages, so I'll continue to run my 15W50 and you can use 5W30, and we'll both be happy.

 

[dsm-onster]

Justin, could the reason that mitsubish tells us not to use the 5w-30 oil in warmer climates and recommeds 5w-30 oil in colder climates be bacause of the a$$hole who starts their car in the morning and floors it from every stopsign in their neigborhood while the engine is cold. If GST95 is right,

Most people think that oil is thin when its hot. They should really think of it as oil is thick when it is cold. Too thick to lubricate as it is designed to do because it is designed to work at its operating temp. The lower the first number the thinner it is when cold which makes it closer to its operating temp thickness at below operating temp.

, then the lower 5w number will save Mitsu from warrenty claims due to bearing failure because of oil that is far too thick to properly lubricate the bearing surfaces.

Now I use thicker oil. And have had no troubles. I know the holset was designed for the diesel motor specifically, So I use diesel truck weight oil. But I ALWAYS let an engine warm up before driving it.

 

[GST95]

If 5W30 and 10W30 are as similar (when hot) as you're claiming, why would Mitsubishi specify NOT to use 5W30 in climates above 60*f? It shouldn't matter if both oils have the same heat retention and wear protection.

Mitsu also says leave your car stock. These arent my claims. That is the data sheet from Royal Purple. You can get the data sheet for any oil you want that has a sae certification. They have to do the tests to get the certification. Like i said, mineral oil with a wide weight spread like 5w30 breaks down its additives faster then a mineral oil with a lower weight spread like 10w30. It just simply wears out(degrades) faster. Synthetics are totally different though. Look at Redline Shockproof for example. Like i said, im not trying to change your mind. If you are happy with what you are running then keep using it. Do you ever do any oil analysis on you oil when you change it? I might switch to a 40 weight after my next oil analysis because im not running an oil cooler right now, but im going to wait on the results. If i do, ill probably try Royal Purple 0w40 first.

dsm-onster is kinda right. Most manufacturers warnings and recommendations are based on that a$$hole that constantly abuses and never takes care of his car. And i always let my car warm up too, but it takes alot longer for your oil to come up to temp compared to your coolant

 

[chrisb33]

Justin, could the reason that mitsubish tells us not to use the 5w-30 oil in warmer climates and recommeds 5w-30 oil in colder climates be bacause of the a$$hole who starts their car in the morning and floors it from every stopsign in their neigborhood while the engine is cold. If GST95 is right,
, then the lower 5w number will save Mitsu from warrenty claims due to bearing failure because of oil that is far too thick to properly lubricate the bearing surfaces.

Now I use thicker oil. And have had no troubles. I know the holset was designed for the diesel motor specifically, So I use diesel truck weight oil. But I ALWAYS let an engine warm up before driving it.

Warm up FTW! i usually wait for the thermostat needle to reach the low temp indicator before i even move my car out of the garage with no A/C till its warm enough.
Matt,

I have a question though. Since i moved up to fully synthetic (mobil 1 5w30 IIRC) there was a noticeable improvement on the engine's smoothness. I dont have any sort of numbers to prove this claim but subjectively i do notice faster revs. also idle tick that usually occur during start up was almost non existent.

having said that, since my new rebuild engine will have hx35 power, and from your recommendations, i should go thicker oil, how thick is thick? can i do away with 5w30? im even contemplating on their new 0w40 for gasoline engine for better lubrication during cold start. if i go thicker, would this mean engine smoothness mentioned will suffer?

Mobile 1 do have fully synthetic oil for diesel trucks rated 5w40. should i go with this for a 4g63T engine?

I live in a very hot climate almost all year round. ranging from 90-100+ deg.

Thanks.

chris b

 

[dsm-onster]

well. I just use 40 oil because that is what the holset is built for and guys who push their cars to 500+whp use 40 and 50 oil. I plan on that. So that is what I use. I don't know what's right or wrong.

Engine smoothness is related to lifter pump up. I'll bet the thinner cold start oil is pumping up the lifters better. Hence, no more lifter tick at startup and smoother revs. I don't know that you should change. I've also heard that thicker oil, 10w-40 vs. 10w30, does a better job pumping up the lifters too.

Back when I ws using rotella T 10w-40 dino oil, I changeed every 3K religiously. I changed basd on the color of the oil. Now, with the synthetic oil the color doesn't reach the same tint until 4500+ miles. If I'm understanding GST95 correctly, if you go to a higher weight (the second number) then you should go to a lower weight cold start number (the first number) to achieve similar cold start lubrication qualities as the lower weight oil from which you are changing.

So maybe me running 20w-40 isn't as good as 5w-40. I want the same cold start lubrication as 10w-30. But when the oil reaches operating tem (when I'll do a run), then oil will be thicker. However, since there is more spread between those numbers, I'll have to change more frequently. The higher weight oil breaks down faster. Though it initially is much stronger for high heat applications, apparently I'll have to change it more frequently to make using the higher weight worthwhile since it could break down to below the 10w-30 weight much quicker. . . Am I right?

Another thing, a holset could deal with 30 oil just fine. Who knows? I just am trying to strike a balance with a system of parts definately not originally intended for the same engine bay.