FWD versus AWD [Merged 2-8]

[TrippleStar]

Hello, kids. Here is the Official AWD or FWD? thread. All the hare-brained arguments about "rolling starts" and "top speed" and "deadly transfer cases" and "drivetrain losses" and the rest of the mis-guided "better" advice is right here.

It's recommended you just skip reading it. You already know which you want, and why. Still, it's a place to dump it all.

Let's start with this fine opener from 2002 (it really doesn't get much better):

newbie to DSMs here, whats AWD and FWD. just sold my civic hatchback and got my eclipse not to long ago and im still learing the dsm101 stuff.

 

[stevieraywolf]

True, they tend not to understear as much as AWD, but honestly, I'd rather have the understear, with the grip and power out of the corner of AWD.

I agree that FWD isn't a horrible waste of time. whatever, it still fun. But when it comes down to it, the AWD syblings wear the pants in the family. As far as track cars go there is a reason the 1/4 mile times become extremely lop-sided when you get into the 10's and faster.

If you like understeer, that's your thing, so good for you. Personally, I like having oversteer and learning to control it. And any fast car should be prepared to roll, even FWD.

Of course, you could just solve all this disagreement with a 4H-2H shifter....

Maybe even 4L for the quarter....

 

[zero97tsi]

Something about likeing understeer

Your talking about oversteer and understeer like we drive Exige's and Koenigsegg's. The difference between the AWD and FWD platform as far as over and understeering is minimal in normal operating conditions.

If getting some Arby's is important enough that you need to turn and enter the parking lot at 70 MPH or so, well then I think you may have other things to worry about.

 

[94Jettameowpsst]

If getting some Arby's is important enough that you need to turn and enter the parking lot at 70 MPH or so, well then I think you may have other things to worry about.

!

Fwd vehicles need wheelie bars because of squat hence the reason awd cars dont need them. How many awd cars are in the 7s as opposed to fwd vehicles?

I suppose a fwd platform is only really efficient as a full race car.

 

[stevieraywolf]

I suppose a fwd platform is only really efficient as a full race car.

That's what we're talkin about....

 

[dsm-onster]

Interesting. . . The FWD drive guys are coming out of the woods .

Really though. A Front Wheel Drive train can't be more efficient at the drag strip. . . Can it? How are you defining efficiency? The gain in wheel horsepower by a lower mass drivetrain and the lighter weight is easily offset by the gain de to a qicker 60 ft. Personally, I've smoked a set of drag radials. . . I've got a video of a 9 second FWD doing MUCH worse w/ slicks and a REAL lsd.

Efficiency to me leans towards using what naturally occurs to your advantage. . . Like a turbine wheel that exhausts more gasses because its bigger not because you've clipped the blades.

This is interesting:

I've had several of both...I really, really, really like the tractibilty of the AWD. Especially if its an all-season car. AWD is way too much fun in the snow Usable 1st/2nd is cool. 10 min fuel pump install and true IRS in the rear.

Good point. . . Except, i've seen that most IRS FWD cars, though more "tractable", are not as "cornerable". Having the wheel want to stay down on the track in a high speed turn is great. Until you realize that the rear inner spring is pushing the chassis to roll against what you want. Nobody wants body roll, so we stiffen the rear up. A rear-beam suspension does awful well for auto-x. See the traditional Golf GTI. The rear inner wheel may even lift off of the track surface, but at least it's not pushing the body out of the curve.

IRS has it's place. It seams to me it is meant for mild speed cornering. Camrys and Escorts. Unless you're shooting torque through that same IRS. The needs of the system change then, of course. The IRS is not an attribute, the rear wheel torque used by the IRS is. A FWD benefits by having the rear wheels "lock" into the same plane.

A note. AWD cars inherently posess LESS understeer. FWD guys nauseously complain about understeer. Rear tires push the rear to the outside of the curve. This causes the front of the body to tend to point towards the inside of the turn or exit. This is oversteer and the premise of drifting in a circuit.

I've seen more than one FWD run better than an AWD w/ the same engine performance mods by negating the advantages of quicker 60 ft. It takes more than slicks and LSD when running more than around 400 hp. Axle twisting and other 'suspension shock' needs to be addressed. Foremost, negating the symptoms of weight transfer becomes paramount in my experience.

 

[stevieraywolf]

A note. AWD cars inherently posess LESS understeer. FWD guys nauseously complain about understeer. Rear tires push the rear to the outside of the curve. This causes the front of the body to tend to point towards the inside of the turn or exit. This is oversteer and the premise of drifting in a circuit.

Well, a little tap of the brake can cut off traction in the rear tires, killing any car's understeer problem. However, an inexperienced driver, or one who might not be a professional drifter (I'll admit it, this includes me) might have a it of trouble with oversteer, especially if they just cut off traction in their tires. So, turning is more about driver skill and preference, not a competition between drive tires.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well, a little tap of the brake can cut off traction in the rear tires, killing any car's understeer problem. However, an inexperienced driver, or one who might not be a professional drifter (I'll admit it, this includes me) might have a it of trouble with oversteer, especially if they just cut off traction in their tires. So, turning is more about driver skill and preference, not a competition between drive tires.

And any tap on the gas will yield a gain in understeer. . . what is your point.

You havn't driven a FWD w/ enough torque. Since you admit that you are an ameteure. Let it go . It takes skill, yes; but it is not an advantage. A skilled driver can negate the advantages of rear wheel torque. But no one can not create an advantage that is not there.

 

[RSbeast]

Well, In terms of that nature, most auto-x is done with speeds under 40mph or so with not a ton of running room to the next corner, so getting a car to pivot where you want it IS paramount.

FWIW, I havent been in a DSM yet that has that great a turning radius That said, in real life, I would put my $ all day on the AWD car. Negotiating turns with elevation changes, or any sort of pavement changes, it simply CLAWS through them, and allows you to lay down near 100% of the power so long as you can drive it. Yes, I have had guys on crotchrockets near dump it chasing me up an onramp, and I've put my car to 10/10ths with throttle enduced oversteer, corrected an still accelerating on my line.

You just can't do that with FWD. Perhaps in ideal environments, with excellent suspension and tires, but still you'd be shoving the nose off the outside of the turn, its fun, sure..but not always as efficient.

ALL of these change again if it rains. Both cars definately have thier place, both can be super fun, and super rewarding. Heck, right now I own two RWD cars (380hp 5.0 and a Lt1 t/a) and my old GST. Every one of these cars are a blast, I just can't help from not being as serious with the GST as my AWD car. I felt near invincible at a light in my AWD car, the fwd is like 'man this is gonna suck', the RWD cars mean I peddle 1st and get it hooked if I can. Not to mention the RWD is the most fun of all hands down.

IMO its RWD>AWD>FWD. Nothing is more rewarding.

 

[stevieraywolf]

I drove a mustang with a procharger and couldn't get over 3500 rpms sin the tires spinning, so I've never really forgiven RWD. It's a drifter setup, unless you have a rear or mid engine, which tends to be reserved to the more high-end cars.

And by the way, I do love Arby's.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

1) Burnouts
2) Less power train loss
3) Less weight
4) Pull the ebrake in the snow and it will drift like nothing else.

 

[stealth mullet]

RWD>AWD>FWD.

notice the period. i couldnt argee anymore. if you fwd lovers out there think fwd is so great, you guys should just go and buy a honda.

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[silvermitsu10]

then why do all the fast fwd cars have wheely bars?!?!

fwd = ghey.

What's you'r problem with front wheel drive? It may not be as great at the track for launches but I would venture to say that my FWD will put me at the line at the same time if not before an AWD of the same specs. There was an import hater thread over on car forums not to long ago in which one of the guys there who is all about his vette and thinks it's gods gift to the car world explaind a few things. One of which being the fact that Shep can't launch all out in his car other wise it will fall to pieces. You don't belive that go to Shep's site and read a little bit. Further more Shep is also putting alot more power to the rear than most any other AWD out there to minimize the loss of the Transfer case and the other two diffs after launch. In an engineering and mechanical aspect any vehicle with only one diff is going to be a lot more efficient and better to race than any AWD vehicle out there. Now that being said... I want an AWD myself just because they are hella fun to drive on the track... Though the GS-t that I have now finally pulled an 8.5 on the eighth around here. I was very happy with that. And the 60 ft was a 1.8 on street tires and a stock suspension once I learned to drive it properly.

 

[RSbeast]

Unfortunately, that arguement only covers one small aspect with unknown variables. Tire pressure altered at all? Etc.

I changed zero things, on streettires, with a crappy sportline/gr2 setup was religeous 1.72's..... at my track, at (x) elevation, with ( typical temp ) at like 35psi in all 4.

What I'm getting at, is there is more than launching to dispute the difference. If FWD was the better of the two platforms, despite cost, the AWD would not have been the flagship model. Even when campaigned new, the FWD did not fair like the 1,2,3 finishes of the AWD production stock cars.

Still, thats an excellent 60' for what it's worth. Please share any and all mods/conditions/driving style for sake of the conversation.

 

[stealth mullet]

Further more Shep is also putting alot more power to the rear than most any other AWD out there to minimize the loss of the Transfer case and the other two diffs after launch.

you make no sense whatsoever.

 

[stevieraywolf]

you make no sense whatsoever.

I think he was trying to say that shep's car is geared more towards the back than a stock DSM. I'm sure most of you know this, but for those who don't, AWD cars don't put equal power through all the wheels. Apparently Shep's car puts a higher percent of the weight on his rear tires than normal.

Of course, I can't speak for him, so I'm not 100% sure that's what he meant.

 

[dsm-onster]

I think he was trying to say that shep's car is geared more towards the back than a stock DSM. I'm sure most of you know this, but for those who don't, AWD cars don't put equal power through all the wheels. Apparently Shep's car puts a higher percent of the weight on his rear tires than normal.

Of course, I can't speak for him, so I'm not 100% sure that's what he meant.

Yes, DSMs do. 50/50 center differential.

 

[RSbeast]

Silvermitsu,

That really does make NO sense at all. Do you not understand how power even gets to the rear differential or how ANYTHING on an AWD or FWD driveline works?

ANY power getting to the rear HAS to come through the transfer case.....

Seriously a few of you need to go learn about a car before you go off on a fanboyish platform rant.

 

[silvermitsu10]

Unfortunately, that arguement only covers one small aspect with unknown variables. Tire pressure altered at all? Etc.

I changed zero things, on streettires, with a crappy sportline/gr2 setup was religeous 1.72's..... at my track, at (x) elevation, with ( typical temp ) at like 35psi in all 4.

What I'm getting at, is there is more than launching to dispute the difference. If FWD was the better of the two platforms, despite cost, the AWD would not have been the flagship model. Even when campaigned new, the FWD did not fair like the 1,2,3 finishes of the AWD production stock cars.

Still, thats an excellent 60' for what it's worth. Please share any and all mods/conditions/driving style for sake of the conversation.

for me it was completely stock suspension on some shitty street tires with about 26 PSI in the front and about 42 in the rear. This is in a car that isn't to greatly modified either. I'm in the heart of Alabama but I don't know the elevation, though it shouldn't be to ungodly far from sea level. It did take me a few passes to get used to the car and how it feels but just before the season was out I was consistantly pulling 1.87 60 foot times and consistantly pulling around 8.82 second passes in the 1/8th mile. It really impressed those guys out there when the z28's would jump me off the line but before the 60 foot mark I was blowing past them like they were running in reverse. They were all stock auto z28's but none the less.
And as for mods... there have been a few things as of late, a decent tune did the most, but a ported and clipped t-28 is in the mix, pushing 16 PSI. Hard pipes to the stock intercooler. Injen intake. DNP turbo manifold. new type s knock off recirc valve. And energy suspension motor mount inserts.
Usually it's around 70 degrees when I run, and I don't run the car with the inner fender behind the inter cooler. I don't heat the tires or anything like that, I just pull up to the line and go. After a few nights at the track it became nearly second nature to pull off the line hard and blast through third without thinkin about it. I really don't know how I was launching the car or when I was shifting or anything like that on the last couple of nights that we all went out but honestly I didn't even notice that much of a difference when modifying the car other than when I got it properly tuned. Then it just came to life.

 

[silvermitsu10]

I think he was trying to say that shep's car is geared more towards the back than a stock DSM. I'm sure most of you know this, but for those who don't, AWD cars don't put equal power through all the wheels. Apparently Shep's car puts a higher percent of the weight on his rear tires than normal.

Of course, I can't speak for him, so I'm not 100% sure that's what he meant.

Yes... that's what I was saying.

 

[silvermitsu10]

Silvermitsu,

That really does make NO sense at all. Do you not understand how power even gets to the rear differential or how ANYTHING on an AWD or FWD driveline works?

ANY power getting to the rear HAS to come through the transfer case.....

Seriously a few of you need to go learn about a car before you go off on a fanboyish platform rant.

Yes actually I do know how it all works. I just have a problem with getting out in words correctly. I'm a retard in short... when it comes to making a point with the english language... or any language for that matter.

 

[Defiant]

I'm sure most of you know this, but for those who don't, AWD cars don't put equal power through all the wheels.

DSMs do. I'm not aware of another that does.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...ged-9-7-torque-split-division-slip-drive.html

 

[RSbeast]

Yes actually I do know how it all works. I just have a problem with getting out in words correctly. I'm a retard in short... when it comes to making a point with the english language... or any language for that matter.

Haha, right on man

Toss some slicks into your mix and you should be doing pretty well

 

[stevieraywolf]

DSMs do. I'm not aware of another that does.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...ged-9-7-torque-split-division-slip-drive.html

Does or doesn't. I haven't researched DSM's much, yet, so if they do, my bad; but most don't. Trucks especially.

And this guy is hilarious. -->WTF

 

[GS-T_Newboost]

if you ask me a moded fwd runing 1.8 60's isnt bad and with the less weight then awd it is going to be moveing up top end without as much power

 

[silvermitsu10]

Haha, right on man

Toss some slicks into your mix and you should be doing pretty well

Well I've got a new motor in the works for next summer, the tranny will have a limited slip, and there will be a 20G in the mix. Hopefully some slicks will be there as well... If so I'm hoping to get out to the 1/4 in huntsville once or twice and I'll be shooting for a mid or low 12. With that I will have pretty close to the fastes thing around here that isn't all out drag.