arias pistons [Merged 8-8]

[Styler91TSIAWD]

I have a choice between weisco and eagles for 700 and arias and eagles for 800.

My questions are as follows.

From a reputable souce to run weisco pistons you need a .003 tolerance with JE you need .004 and with Ross you need around .005.

He mentioned nothing or arias pistons. I don't know tha much about thema and a search on here did nothing for technical inquiries.

Please post personal experiance with arias pistons and weisoc pistons. 9:1 compression on a turbo motor with a 20g. If you don't have personal with this setup please.

I was told forged pistons tend to get piston slap more than a cast piston becasue when cold there ther pistons tolerance is set more than a cast piston because of heat expansion. I know both of these pistons are high quality and people have done very well on both pistons. Thanks for you comments

 

[Brian Nutter]

Regarding methanol, we've been getting into that a lot lately in Sport compact racing. Some of the coolest applications so far have been Dual-fuel applications. Running 11:1 compression on pump gas and the fuel system switching over to Alchohol when on boost. Instant switchover, 2 maps, 1 set of injectors. What other questions do you have regarding pistons?--Brian Nutter-Wiseco Piston

 

[MNGSX]

I'm playing with ethanol...

It's very economical... Much more so than VP116 and you can make more power with it.

What max boost level do you run on the alky engines.

It is more an issue of matching the static compression, boost and fuel.... Like at that 11.1 cr you can run x psi on alcohol....

 

[Brian Nutter]

mid to high 30lb levels so far. This has been done mostly w/ engines in the 9.5:1 range. It should be noted that blown alchohol engines (domestics) are around 12:1, and I would expect the trend in sport compact racing to follow that as people get used to the idea.--Brian Nutter

 

[MNGSX]

Looks like I will have to rethink my compression ratio on the second motor....

I don't think you can go quite that high with ethanol.... It is a bit behind methanol in latent heat of vaporization...

In a nut shell methanol is a bit more knock resistant than ethanol... However it is more expensive an alot more nasty to work with...

93 octane almost hit $2 here... You don't wanna know what race gas was...

I was planing on running wisecos for some time... Do you have any recomendations for Ti wrist pins?

 

[Brian Nutter]

I hear you concerning the cost of gas. I may need a dual fuel system that runs 87 usually and 92 octane (throttle angle dependent) the way things are going ... As for the Ti pins, our customers have had a fair amount of grief over running them. They've proven to be "sticky" in the pin bores. Runnable in some applications and not in others--- even dependent on forging design sometimes. If you were to run any, it's mandatory to run DLC platings on them. Precision Products can be reached at 800 421 9150 and offer them under the trade-name "Casidium". Quality is first rate, but I can tell you that out of every Turbocharged import customer I've dealt with, none have gone that direction. At $85 per pin, you'll find better ways to spend your money.--Thanks, Brian Nutter

 

[MNGSX]

Ought to try dual fuel...

My brothers ranger runs gas or E85 (ethanol)... Factory

I'm running dual fuel.. E85 street, E98 track.... Although now that I have a beater car and you cant keep people away from a parked DSM that is built right.... I will like just keep the tank full of the 98 and the pro-efi set for it.

I was just concerned with cutting reciprocating weight. You have to cut about 10x as much weight from a rotating component to get the same gains from what came from cutting reciprocating...

 

[crankbender]

specifically how well do the pistons hold up when using methanol as a fuel. For instance if you were to run the car fri, sat, and sunday then flush the system and run on gas on mondy what kind of oxidation can be expected. would the coatings and anodizing of certain areas help to prevent this?

Also do you have any opinions on the mating of your pistons to different rod manufacturers, including the now available aluminum rods. If one were to be aiming for the 300-400hp/liter range are there any specific points you need to be aware of with your pistons.

On your duel fuel vehicles how do you avoid adding gas to the alcohol. The recirc system will tend to do this unless you use a seperate fuel rail for each fuel type.

On a seperate topic how do you feel about the new theory about hard break ins?

 

[Brian Nutter]

Well, The alchol is extremely hard on the lines etc., but the system that I've seen starts and runs on gas-uses a solenoid to switch the lines at a "t" to the fuel rail from the gasoline tank/pump/line and the alchohol tank/pump/line. Thus really only 1 pump and one line get oxidized. The injectors stay clean because they are purged w/ gasoline after use. Normally alchohol/methanol milks down the oil a lot over the course of a race weekend, but I haven't heard how much this is decreased. Milking is actually a lot less awful that it looks initially. As for the pistons, they stay shiny and really clean/ same thing for the valves. It makes it impossible to read plugs though. You'll know a melting piston by the lovely rainbow of color that it creates. Knowing lambda is necessary to tune as it's about 1gph per hp versus .43 or so or gas.

The pistons like it fine, no special precautions necessary except immediately going through a methodical tuning regimen to keep the alchohol from taking the oil off the cylinderwalls and seizing pistons etc. As for rods, I still prefer a good steel rod versus aluminum in anything but a N/A series Pro Stock application. You'll see more hp from another lb of boost versus about anything in terms of reciprocating weight. The cranks and good rods haven't started failing yet if a lighter piston is hung on them, so until then I'd avoid the necessity to switch out the aluminum rods often.

As for rod brand names, I think the top steel rod companies all have nicely machined parts in general. There are some off-brands that are pretty sorry where the forging looks great, but the quality of the machining is poor. Bad threads, big end taper and out of round, twist, etc.-who knows about their heat-treat even. I'd say that only now are people really starting to look at rod weights in turbo sport compact racing. They've all been pretty "over-built" until now and it's going to take some pretty gutsy racers to really find out where the "low" limits are in terms of weight.

 

[crankbender]

Brian: When the initial T switch is accomplished on the incomming fuel line (positive flow) the rail will switch fuels at a rate that varies with differing loads and velocities of the engine. Unless this is programmed into the switching system some gas will most likely get sent down the return line for the alcohol tank. Are they currently overcomming this will a time delayed switch on the return line (alcohol in the gas wouldn't be so bad) or are they just allowing the gas to get back to the alcohol tank. This is of course assuming they are using a recircing system.

Would you mind me PMing you about some off topic stuff?

 

[Brian Nutter]

I'm pretty positive all they're using is checkvalves just before the "T". Sorry, don't have the capability of pm'ing.--Thanks, Brian

 

[crankbender]

Hmmm I am a little confused on the way a check valve would save them here. It is possible they arn't using a recirculating system at all.

Here is the system I am seeing.

(T fitting)----(fuel input line)----(fuel rail)----(fuel return line)----(T fitting)

Now the lines are going to be as short as possible for all practical purposes. However when the T fittings are switched over the fuel in the rail is still likely to have some flow that goes through the return line (otherwise they would not be able to control pressure through the return system and have to use a control on the motor itself). I am not sure they want to use a speed controller on the motor to regulate pressure in the fuel rail as it is bound to have some inertial lag.

Did you have any comments on hard breakins. Supposidly using this method the rings will seal better. I havn't tried both and seen the difference but I can see where this idea comes from. Apparently it started in the bike world and is slowly making a showing in cars.

The questions I had for you really arn't appropriate on this board as they are about the industry. I will keep it as brief as possible but would still like to ask you a few questions. I understand you may not want to give your e-mail out on this board as you might be flooded with mail quite quickly. If you don't mind sending me one my e-mail is [email protected].

 

[Brian Nutter]

I'll email you.

 

[-red97rum-]

Originally posted by tmizer
More info:

Wiseco: 336 g
Ross: 343 g
Arias: 362 g
JE: 342 g

These are all 2G 0.020 over pistons. Brian Nutter was indeed correct in saying that Wiseco has the lightest pistons for a 4G63.
-T

My girlfriend bought me a set of 1g wiseco pistons with a 0.020 over bore and the weight is as follows.

332 g. the heaviest being 332.6g, and the lightest being 332.2g

They are so beautiful I am almost sad that they will never be seen *HOPEFULLY* again once installed.

Peace,

Dustin

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Wow. That's all I can say.

I bought Wiseco's for my DSM at the advice of my local shop, and after seeing Brian get on here (unlike other companies), and take a lot of time out of his day to help us, I'd more confident I made the right choice. I'm aiming for 600ish whp, street driven track car more or less.

 

[blue1]

Brian, if you could please tell me if you make a piston to suit the 4g64 with the 1G head using the 2G rods with the 22mm pins, i have seen heaps of wiseco's with the 21mm pins for this application but not with 22's. Might be just the sites i have been looking on. Reason being the 4G64 uses the narrow big ended rod of the 2G and i thought it wasn't worth paying that money for eagle 1g's and then having the bigends machined and then shotpeened, and the best (cheapest) place over there to get them from. Over here they are around Aus$1300 to 1500 what a joke! I have a large order to do from over there in the very near future.

Any advice appreciated.
[email protected] (see and it cost me nothing to fly here)

 

[tmizer]

I ended up using Wiseco's as well recently, mainly due to Brian Nutter's active appearance in these DSM forums. Their design looks better than the Ross's I had: Extra oiling grooves above the top ring land, reinforcement of the piston forged in, thinner upper compression ring, coated skirts, lighter weight, and less variance in that weight. Pretty much make the Ross's look like generic piston 101. Oh, and the weights were 336.4, 336.4, 336.4, and 336.0, for a variance of 0.4 grams. Ross says their pistons vary at the most by 2.5 grams . Here's a pic of the Wiseco's I put in my engine:

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[Brian Nutter]

Well, we do have the k548m865-which is really just our standard 2nd gen piston. It bumps compression up to 9.3:1 w/ this stroke and would only be considered standard bore for the 4g64.

We don't have a 22mm pin version of the k564m (big -22cc dish) version yet, but we could certainly be willing to build some as customs. We can do a quantity of 8 pistons in this case rather than the normal 12 as all the programing is done except the pin bore, which can easily be changed. This takes about 3-4 weeks. Cost goes up and coatings don't get included, but they're still a nice piston.

I could probably add one oversize pretty easily to the k548 series so guys could bore their blocks, but I'm not sure how many people out there would like 9.3:1 w/ standard gasket and a 47cc head, but then again I've heard the 4g64 cylinder head volume is greater than the standard 4g63. I'd love to get my hands on the cc number of a 4g64 head for our database.

Putting in a new part number is going to be a 2005 deal, so if someone was interested in doing some customs, it would be nice for people to have someone to go to to get them.

I'm wondering about the lack of 21mm rods out there, we've built these pistons for quite a few people, so I'm guessing some 4g64's were done w/ 21mm pins to begin with. That's my problem with Mitsubishi, so many different engines and they can't seem to come up w/ new engine codes for each one. Makes it pretty tough to do my job. Oh well, we'll do what we can. thanks, Brian Nutter-Wiseco Piston

 

[blue1]

Do they make a wiseco piston to suit a 4G64 in a 2G spec!(22mm pin) that will suit the 1G head mod.

 

[blue1]

Sorry bout that last post! dont know how it came up again!

 

[blue1]

Well looks like the easiest way for me is to go with the 1G rods and Mod them, thanks for you prompt reply Brian.

 

[TurboGarageTech]

Hey Brian, great thread, it just went into my selective "tech" bookmarks folder.

One quick question, seeing as it looks like it was overlooked, was what your theories on the "hard" break-in were. I'd be interested to see an opinion from a real piston manufacturer rather than 90 different assorted "I tried it and it didn't blow up" types.

Thanks!

Ryan

 

[-red97rum-]

Brian,

I am also very curious as to what you think about a hard break in to better seat the rings. Also what is your opinion on Total Seal gapless rings? I have heard good and bad things about them. The reason I ask is b/c my machinist it pushing me towards a gapless top ring. He swears by them. He's been building blown big blocks for close to 25 years and I really value his opinion... but what works well for a V8 doesn't necessarily always work well for a 4G63. We all really appreciate you taking the time to provide us with so much valuable info!!! Thanks Again!!


Dustin Chappell

 

[Brian Nutter]

Hi there, a couple questions asked. As for the break in. Racers build an engine, take it straight to the track, and beat on it. These engines require loose tolerances to live. If a person were to do this, I'd ask the clearance to be opened up to .0035-.004 depending on how serious the car was. If you're looking at 600+ horsepower, it may be best to get up into the .005 range. Our forging design for this engine is very forgiving, but some of our other designs aren't and do require more clearance. Our pistons are diamond cut on the skirts and there is a very fine series of ridges. This wears away after time-say 500 miles in, so to the person that would break in his engine for at least 500 miles, I'd say that .003 is ok as it will actually become .0035 when the cylinder and the piston become aquainted. The rings don't really seem to mind that much, and that seems to be more a matter of using proper oil. No Synthetics until the engine "seals up" which will be apparent by a dry spark plug.

As for gapless rings, most of that depends on whether you're running a vacuum pump or dry sump system, and how well the block is vented. I do get customers that like them and say there's an "edge" in the power. I've got customers that have had to pull them out due to oiling. Any buildup in pressure in the crankcase will force the oil to migrate above the rings when there is a pressure differential-say on the intake stroke. This is why "blow-by" can be a bit positive-it forces oil back down in the crankcase.

When it comes to the sport compact market, I like our XX ring package best. We sell them to Total seal and many other aftermarket piston companies. It's a steel top ring which is capable of dealing w/ high heat, nitrous, turbo, whatever you want to throw at it. Some of our best customer's engines are making 265hp per cylinder and swear by that ring. Many customers say these rings produce nearly zero leak down anyway, which I guess is because of the fact they are more light tight "round" than most competitors. We've had a o.e. advanced engine testing lab put them under a very high power microscope and marvel at the grain structure on these relatively inexpensive rings.

Thanks again, Brian Nutter-Wiseco Piston

 

[-red97rum-]

Brian,

So am I correct in assuming the "XX" ring package you are referring to are the rings that came with my pistons? They are really nice looking rings IMO. What is your recommended ring end gap for these rings. I'm basically only planning on making about 100-115 hp per cylinder without using N2o. Pistons are .020 over bore. Again, thanks for your time and efforts.

Dustin Chappell

 

[myblack98gst]

I swear I think I am bout to go order a set of pistons right now and I dont need any..

but when it comes time for me to get real internals now I know what I will be using.