arias pistons [Merged 8-8]

[Styler91TSIAWD]

I have a choice between weisco and eagles for 700 and arias and eagles for 800.

My questions are as follows.

From a reputable souce to run weisco pistons you need a .003 tolerance with JE you need .004 and with Ross you need around .005.

He mentioned nothing or arias pistons. I don't know tha much about thema and a search on here did nothing for technical inquiries.

Please post personal experiance with arias pistons and weisoc pistons. 9:1 compression on a turbo motor with a 20g. If you don't have personal with this setup please.

I was told forged pistons tend to get piston slap more than a cast piston becasue when cold there ther pistons tolerance is set more than a cast piston because of heat expansion. I know both of these pistons are high quality and people have done very well on both pistons. Thanks for you comments

 

[myblack98gst]

well this morning I bought my 9.0:1 .020 over wiesco pistons and eagle H-Beams

 

[tmizer]

Brian-
Hopefully you're reading this. 2 questions:

1. Is it possible to get one piston of P/N K548M855 and a single piston ring set and how much?
2. Is there a P/N for 7-bolt stroker pistons? IE - 4G63 block w/4G64 crank (1.130" comp height versus the usual 1.378")

I'm weighing my options before I tear into the short block to see damage from a lean running cylinder that destroyed both exhaust valves and the piston.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[Brian Nutter]

yes, just order the single 6548m855. it's 1/4th the cost of a kit and includes the rings. As for the stroker 7 bolt. Yes we're coming out with the kit, it's called the k596m series along with the 85,85.5, 86mm bore sizes. It's got the 22mm wrist pin. It should be here before December. If you want, we can do it as a custom if you REALLY have to make sure it's done on time. -Best Regards, Brian Nutter-Wiseco Piston Co. 800 321 1364

 

[Styler91TSIAWD]

Is the 7 bolt stroker gonna come with a special crank or are we gonna just have to use the galant 2.4 crank. That sure would be nice if ya'll made a badass crank to go with the stoker kit.

 

[D@nno]

Hey Brian just a quick question about piston to head clearance. I am building a 6 bolt 2.4 and am using the K564m87's. I've heard that having a smaller quench area is better for warding off detonation. If i remember correctly this set sits .008 down in the cylinder. I was thinking of shaving the block to get the clearance to 0 and using a .030 head gasket. Would this be a good set up? Your input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[unlikely hero]

Ok I'm slightly confused? I'm building a 6bolt 2.4 (4gcs block, 4g63 head) and from eariler in this thread someone was saying that eagle rods won't fit? I want to run the eagle/wiseco combo. I plan to .20 overbore. What part number do I need. Also are these custom ordered like the stroker pistons which means it takes a couple weeks to get or these on shelf? I plan to order w/in this week and really time is very important since this is my only mean of transportation. Thanks
=Jason-

 

[peregrine]

Ok I'm slightly confused? I'm building a 6bolt 2.4 (4gcs block, 4g63 head) and from eariler in this thread someone was saying that eagle rods won't fit? I want to run the eagle/wiseco combo. I plan to .20 overbore. What part number do I need. Also are these custom ordered like the stroker pistons which means it takes a couple weeks to get or these on shelf? I plan to order w/in this week and really time is very important since this is my only mean of transportation. Thanks
=Jason-

im doing the same. and yes the rods will fit. it is the exact same rod for the 2.0s. vendors should have these in stock. i think the part # is k564m865 for the standard bore and k564m87 for the .20 over pistons. correct me if im wrong brian. ill be ordering mine in the next two weeks.

 

[scottsee]

awsome thread. i have a question. im bulding a 6 bolt 4g63 2.3 stroker. i've been asking alot of questions on my native AF.com. i've been strugling with the question, "do i take a chance and bore (.008) my cyinders to 87.0/3.425 and use the K571M87 kit with xx rings, or go smaller like (.006) 86.5/3.406 kit #K571M865? i've noticed weisco is one of the only piston companys that have a stroker 21 pin kit for 4g63 100mm stroke @ .008 over. there must be a reasion, but i cant seem to find anyone who's done it, or who can answer my question. "is .008 just unreliable"

 

[Street Surgeon]

Haha, poor guy...

Just keeps getting pounded with all these questions and STILL manages to reply back over and over, amazing.

At any rate I am sitting on a rebuild right now, and have EVERYTHING ordered but the pistons. I was thinking Ross, Arias, or Wiseco perhaps but this thread has definitely made my decision for me. I've always heard good things about Wiseco's and you CAN NOT argue the bang-for-the-buck factor.

Thanks for all the great info Brian, can't wait to get a set of your pistons in the old Talon

 

[keltalon]

More info:

Wiseco: 336 g
Ross: 343 g
Arias: 362 g
JE: 342 g

These are all 2G 0.020 over pistons. Brian Nutter was indeed correct in saying that Wiseco has the lightest pistons for a 4G63.
-T

do you know what gram weight the stock piston is?

 

[tmizer]

I don't. If anyone else can post that info, that'd be helpful.

 

[Street Surgeon]

I am also very curious as to what you think about a hard break in to better seat the rings.

I read Brians reply, but in it he discussed racing motors and loose-er clearances etc. In your opinion Brian how should a street motor be broken in? I'll be dropping my 6olt off to the machine shop here in a few days and the block is getting .40 over 9:1 wisecos on eagle h-beam rods. Should I have the machine shop run .0035 or .003 clearances? Should the car be broken in "hard" to really seat the rings, or should I take it easy? I've read alot of threads on here and there are plenty of opinions, but I'd like one from someone in the know if possible. To get specific...

What ring clearances should be used? (.40 over 9:1)

What break in method should be used with those clearances? (med/hard or easy does it)

Thanks.

Also if you're bored, what do you make of this method vs. this method.

 

[Brian Nutter]

Sorry for the unanswered questions -I'm not sure how old they are, but you can give Wiseco a call and we'll try to give our best recommendations if I don't answer a post immediately. I'll answer a couple posts at once

Regarding bore size:
As for the 87mm bore, -that's specifically for the 4g64 block combinations, but we do list it as being available for the 4g63-there's an overlap in the possible combinations for that part number. If you're already at .040 over (86mm), and the choice is to find another block or bore out your old one, I'd usually just go the next .020 and hope for the best. The worst you'll be out is a set of pistons and gaskets and some time if it splits a cylinder or has oil control problems. .010" material thickness (per side) isn't going to make or break an engine-the horsepower would be the big determiner-so you might as well give it another go rather than using up the earths supply of 4g63 blocks. I'd like to see someone post some sonic test thicknesses for these blocks some time. I'm not sure directly how it applies to 4g63's, but generally we'd hope for .180" thickness-but I'm sure some engines run fine w/ .120"-at least on the minor thrust side. I'm boring a 4g63 block out at the moment, so I'll try to sonic check ours and I'll post the results sometime.

As for break in:
For street use where you're not going straight to the dyno or the track, and can afford to give it 500 miles, go with .003 clearance. My personal recommendation is to run cheap convient store quality mineral oil for the first 2000 miles with the first oil change at 500 miles. I'd like 20 minutes at 2000 rpm before driving with a complete cool down after that. --You'll want to re-torque manifolds. Fuel wash is one of the worst things for the pistons/rings, so keep an eye to keep everything working there. Also, an injected engine should fire in the first 5 seconds, so if it isn't firing or is coughing/sputtering-cut it and find out what's wrong rather than turning it over for 2 minutes hoping for the best-your bearings will thank you. Get it out on the street and give it about 80% load and sub 8 lbs of boost in a series of 10 20mph to 60mph pulls in 3rd gear. Bring it back in, check things over and let things cool back down. It's ok to tickle the boost-say less than 8 lbs or so, but I'd rather see no more than 80 % load for the first 500 miles-then go to town with it.

As for the end gap question, if you're not running nitrous or over 22 lbs-and if you're doing the 500 mile break in, I'd run .016 top and our 2nd end gaps are now up to about .020 or so. If you're planning on more or going straight to the track, some of the 30 lb+ boosted engines require up to about .020 on the top ring and a few more on the 2nd. If nitrous enters the equation, plan on .022-.024 on the top. These are approximate figures and there are varying degrees in between.

Everyone have a good time in 2005!--Brian Nutter-Wiseco Piston.

 

[diambo4life]

Thanks alot for all your posts in this thread. They couldn't have been more timely. I'm also going to be digging in to mine here shortly once I receive "a few" more items. You know how it goes...

Now that's what I can call real customer support. We appreciate it. I also have Eagle/Wiseco combo for my bat mobile.

 

[MNGSX]

Brian

Have any water brake dyno break-in recomendations for a low tension ring, vaccum pump engine?

I was thinking of running .003 even with the dyno because I'll have time to break it in on the dyno... I prefer the engine dyno to the chasis dyno for inital engine tuning and R&D. I'm looking into various break in routines. It is going to be different on this engine because the vaccum pump will help seat the rings. Another concern I have is cylinder wash down due to alcohol.. I have experienced no problems with it on other engines. I think it is due to the oil squirters. I am installing 1g style squirters to the block this should not only help cool the pison but oil the cylinder walls.. I think I will be ok in the long run but may run some top cyl oil in the fuel for the initial break in just to be safe..

 

[Brian Nutter]

This is a interesting case, do you have a blow by meter connected to your dyno? -Brian

 

[MNGSX]

I'll have to call and ask them..

I know they can probably run a V12 with sequential FI.. Etc.. Its a good dyno I have'nt used theirs before.

 

[Brian Nutter]

Yes, let me know. There's a couple different possible procedures depending on whether they have the meter or not. -Brian

 

[MNGSX]

No they dont have one..

It's an SF-902... I guess the FI engines I saw being run were on the users EMS...

http://www.superflow.com/sf902/sf902pro.htm

 

[Brian Nutter]

Wiseco uses Superflow as well. When we run an engine in on the dyno, we're able to watch the blowby readings fall and stabilize. It's at this point that we start our tests. I'd like to see how many lbs of boost (and horsepower) you're thinking about before I give a clearance recommendation.

"Back in the day" before I worked at Wiseco, I'd cycle the dyno up and down through the rpm range under 25% load for about 5 minutes and cut the engine. I'd let it cool down for a while and tighten things back up while I was at it. From there, start it back up and get it back up to temperature. With the plasma moly rings I used back then, I'd see the plug's porcelin go from oily to ash (dry-up) after 5-10 hits on the dyno. At this point I'd let it rip. With the XX nitrided rings coming lapped and more "light tight"-it certainly helps get a quicker break in. Our skirt coatings keep things happier as well.

It's easier and less trouble-prone to break in an engine on gasoline rather than alchohol. If you can do this, you can get the rings seated before you start doing your tests. If you can't-just do your best to keep it from washing down the cylinder walls-as you stated. If you put oil in the fuel, I'd make sure it's completely purged before you start doing power pulls as it will detonate sooner. As they don't have a leak down guage, I guess I'd say to keep watch the plugs from your initial running and see how long it takes for them to dry up. Your dyno guy will be familiar with all of this. I think you'll be very pleased with what the vacuum pump will do for your power.

-Brian Nutter

 

[MNGSX]

Wiseco uses Superflow as well. When we run an engine in on the dyno, we're able to watch the blowby readings fall and stabilize. It's at this point that we start our tests. I'd like to see how many lbs of boost (and horsepower) you're thinking about before I give a clearance recommendation.

"Back in the day" before I worked at Wiseco, I'd cycle the dyno up and down through the rpm range under 25% load for about 5 minutes and cut the engine. I'd let it cool down for a while and tighten things back up while I was at it. From there, start it back up and get it back up to temperature. With the plasma moly rings I used back then, I'd see the plug's porcelin go from oily to ash (dry-up) after 5-10 hits on the dyno. At this point I'd let it rip. With the XX nitrided rings coming lapped and more "light tight"-it certainly helps get a quicker break in. Our skirt coatings keep things happier as well.

It's easier and less trouble-prone to break in an engine on gasoline rather than alchohol. If you can do this, you can get the rings seated before you start doing your tests. If you can't-just do your best to keep it from washing down the cylinder walls-as you stated. If you put oil in the fuel, I'd make sure it's completely purged before you start doing power pulls as it will detonate sooner. As they don't have a leak down guage, I guess I'd say to keep watch the plugs from your initial running and see how long it takes for them to dry up. Your dyno guy will be familiar with all of this. I think you'll be very pleased with what the vacuum pump will do for your power.

-Brian Nutter

We have talked about some domed pistons via email. You'll find the boost and static compression in there.. I'm sure I can break it in on a lower alcohol mix.. 85% and 15% gas...

Without staged injection on high power levels you can run gas and 85% and thats it or have 85% and 98% as options and no straight gas. People at lower power levels could do it. The 1680's are just a PITA to get to idle decent on straight up gas..

 

[Brian Nutter]

Yep, for what you're doing-full race-I think .004 would be best. You're not going to try and get 100K miles out of it. With the way the skirts are designed, rock won't be an issue at that clearance.-Brian

 

[MNGSX]

I have seen back to back dyno tests of V8's with and w/o a vaccum pump... I'm hoping to be when we run it..

I found another place.. My original dyno told me of someone they knew who has all the superflow goodies.. Does $480 for 8hrs sound good?

 

[MNGSX]

The other shop with the blowby meter says that he breaks in all his methanol motors on gas...

I have a freind with some injectors can borrow for break in.... So I'll just break it in with some smaller injectors on gas....


Now I just gotta find a junk trans so I can turn the bellhousing into a dyno mount...

 

[Street Surgeon]

Man I love this thread Hell now I feel compelled to buy two sets of pistons from Wiseco :laugh: