FWD versus AWD [Merged 2-8]

[TrippleStar]

Hello, kids. Here is the Official AWD or FWD? thread. All the hare-brained arguments about "rolling starts" and "top speed" and "deadly transfer cases" and "drivetrain losses" and the rest of the mis-guided "better" advice is right here.

It's recommended you just skip reading it. You already know which you want, and why. Still, it's a place to dump it all.

Let's start with this fine opener from 2002 (it really doesn't get much better):

newbie to DSMs here, whats AWD and FWD. just sold my civic hatchback and got my eclipse not to long ago and im still learing the dsm101 stuff.

 

[KiNg MaRtY]

$300 is a deal! Why not save a little more and wait for a AWD

 

[dsm-onster]

$300 is a deal! Why not save a little more and wait for a AWD

HAHA! how much little more. He's only paying $300. It doesn't have a blown engine, tranny, or drivetrain. . .

 

[dsm-onster]

Nothing is better. Nothing.

If any of these matter to the owner. . .

Better gas mileage. There's no center diff; so it's easier to install a clutch, easier to rebuild, easier to tow. Taller gears for a road trip. FWD weight distribution is better for it's drivetrain, than AWD weight distribution for it's drivetrain.

 

[xlMcMlx DsM]

Then again, if it's wet

, thats a negative about FWDs.Pooooooooop traction in rain is all i have to say. But 2nd gear and up especially on freeways and what not are AMAZING. Its your own preference, crazy launches or crazy top end after 2nd gear.

 

[91laserguy]

Im FWD, and i just say before i race someone, "see ya in 3rd".

haha isnt that true??!! seen it a few times

 

[GS-T_Newboost]

who races in the rain anyway but throw a quaif in it with some slicks and do spec nasty launches

 

[Defiant]

It costs you a helluva lot less to build if you're an automaker, which will widen your profit. If you're on crappy roads with poor traction (gravel, snow, pigshit) you'll do better than a front engine/rear drive car, up to around a ton in weight. Over that, and the "advantage" quickly diminishes. If you're rear-engine, rear-drive, you'll leave most things wondering where you went. FWD is more difficult to get more than about 300hp to the road, and of course when you're twisting the same tires you're trying to steer with..... well, there are some questions man just wasn't meant to ask. It's a crime against both nature and physics, and all proponents of front-wheel drive will come to understand this during their eternity in hell. Which is still too good for them.

 

[123abc]

OK so my plans are this for my project Talon Tsi fwd...
All matinence (EVERYTHING)
Free mods
K&N filter
Catback
wally 190 pump
MBC and boost gauge set at 16psi
Port and polish turbo and exh. manifold

Ok so after all that i figure i have $400 more to spend right away. Anything else im missing?

Get a 3 inch downpipe and make sure the cat back is 3 inch. Get a test pipe or high flow cat and you'll be set with that setup. Most of that is what I'm running already minus the pump and porting. It's a lot of fun.

 

[stevieraywolf]

I may be new to DSM's, but I'm not new to cars, and I'll tell you all now, if you have 2 cars exactly the same, other than one's FWD and the other's AWD, the FWD will kick the AWD's ass, anywhere. The main reason is that the engine will put out the same amount of power in both cars, but the two extra differentials and the transfer case will drain a lot of power from the AWD; in some cars, up to 50 whp, and that's a s**tload when it comes to racing.

And to all you FWDers who can't beat an AWDer off the line, learn to f**kin' drive! You give ricers a bad name. (Which would actually be 'ricer') Extra traction my ass. Do it right, and you'll spin less in FWD than AWD. Believe it or not, almost all the curb weight of any compact sports car will be in the FRONT, so the front tires will get more traction than the back, and AWD doesn't take advantage of this. This is why most top end cars with RWD have rear engine placements, more traction in the back.

Also, these DSM's weigh a good 2700 lbs. That's more than enough to hold a FWD to the ground. Just push the throttle right. (Not all the way down, that is; just light enough to stick instead of spin.)

So, with more power, less weight, more effecient drivetrain, and much more ease of labor, FWD takes the win.

FWD is more difficult to get more than about 300hp to the road, and of course when you're twisting the same tires you're trying to steer with..... well, there are some questions man just wasn't meant to ask. It's a crime against both nature and physics, and all proponents of front-wheel drive will come to understand this during their eternity in hell. Which is still too good for them.

Almost forgot...

AWD's steer with drive tires, too...
And a little noobing here for me, I just found out that if you hold the cursor over a word, it shows the spanish translation for it, but it doesn't seem to work backwards...

Gracias, mi dio.

 

[stealth mullet]

^spoken like a true "know it all" douche. keep your fwd...ill stick with my awd. i think shep would agree.

 

[dsm-onster]

I may be new to DSM's, but I'm not new to cars, and I'll tell you all now, if you have 2 cars exactly the same, other than one's FWD and the other's AWD, the FWD will kick the AWD's ass, anywhere. The main reason is that the engine will put out the same amount of power in both cars, but the two extra differentials and the transfer case will drain a lot of power from the AWD; in some cars, up to 50 whp, and that's a s**tload when it comes to racing.

And to all you FWDers who can't beat an AWDer off the line, learn to f**kin' drive! You give ricers a bad name. (Which would actually be 'ricer') Extra traction my ass. Do it right, and you'll spin less in FWD than AWD. Believe it or not, almost all the curb weight of any compact sports car will be in the FRONT, so the front tires will get more traction than the back, and AWD doesn't take advantage of this. This is why most top end cars with RWD have rear engine placements, more traction in the back.

Also, these DSM's weigh a good 2700 lbs. That's more than enough to hold a FWD to the ground. Just push the throttle right. (Not all the way down, that is; just light enough to stick instead of spin.)

So, with more power, less weight, more effecient drivetrain, and much more ease of labor, FWD takes the win.

A simple internet search of weight transfer will give you the basics you need to keep up here.

The awd platform sucks out about 30hp more than a fwd platform. Go up 500hp that drivetrain loss does NOT go up that much. . . maybe 10 hp. Not worth the .5 sec you shave just at the 60 ft mark. Research how much a small gain at the 60ft mark yields by the time you reach 1320 feet.

Have you ever even driven a 300+ hp FWD car? I like my FWD. And I have easily tweeked it to really beat a RWD from a dig. But, you can't really believe what you said.

FWD has it's little advantages. . . But straight line acceleration is not one of them.

 

[xxraptor660xx]

^spoken like a true "know it all" douche. keep your fwd...ill stick with my awd. i think shep would agree.

I'm sure this guy has alot of fun running 8's with his FWD.
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Notice how after 2nd gear, he flys passed the other car.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

A simple internet search of weight transfer will give you the basics you need to keep up here.

Blast you! You beat me to it.

stevieraywolf:
Just because all the weight of the tranny and the engine is in the front of the car, doesn't mean that it wont shift to the rear when you try and launch. That's why stock suspension AWD DSMs launch so hard. All the weight transfers to the rear and thats where the suspension lets it go and thats where all the traction goes too (Yeah yeah yeah, I know it's bad to do that. But that doesn't stop other people from doing that. I have coilovers so). Just watch some pro FWD videos and tell me how much of a shift there is on the body when they launch.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

Notice how after 2nd gear, he flys passed the other car.

Notice how the title of that video is "Plymouth Laser on SLICKS" Mind telling me what the GVR4 was on?

And also what power level each was at.

 

[xxraptor660xx]

Notice how the title of that video is "Plymouth Laser on SLICKS" Mind telling me what the GVR4 was on?

And also what power level each was at.

That's not the point i'm trying to make. I was expressing the fact that FWD's can run impressive times, as AWD's can. I was replying to "stealth mullet's" post, in which he seemed to be neglecting FWD's on the track (comparing John Shepherd's AWD to FWD dsm's).

 

[Red97Eclipseboy]

Building a fwd gives you the opportunity to really *study* traction and suspension: because you'll have to . But, there are tricks, tweeks, and upgrades that really work. Just do lots of research.
.

Amen to that. My entire car was built around my findings. Most people who know my car would agree that I succeeded.

I hate to say it, but I like my FWD. Once you learn its dynamics and character, then learn how to use it, it's pretty effiecent. I'm talking about cornering here, mostly.

If you want to drag, well... certain steps can be taken to keep traction without going with slicks and what not, and they'll work, but not for higher amounts of power.

But, if you really want to haul-ass, and tear out of the hole not fighting traction at high HP levels, FF is not your friend. AWD is.

 

[Thomas91169]

Nothing.

the only advantage really would be on a long drawn out roll race on the freeway with two exact setups, one AWD and one FWD. the AWD Drivetrain loss will play the largest role, the faster you go, the more power you need to move all 4.

thats the only pro for FWD i can think of. since you really shouldnt be doing those speeds you need to do to find out the one FWD Pro anyways......

however, due to weight and less drivetrain loss, a FWD would likely be more economical in terms of a Cheap DD with potential to become alot better. just dont expect 1st, 2nd and most of 3rd to be useful the more you mod.

 

[c5chris]

AWD is better. Whoever defends a FWD is in denial. j/k

1) Less parts to break on a FWD. Four less CVTs to break (inner and outer x2 in the back)

2) Less weight

3) A tad better fuel consumption

4) Cheaper MSRP

5) Easier to dyno, though 4-wheel dynos are getting easier to find now.

 

[RSbeast]

I've had several of both...I really, really, really like the tractibilty of the AWD. Especially if its an all-season car. AWD is way too much fun in the snow Usable 1st/2nd is cool. 10 min fuel pump install and true IRS in the rear.

The fwd makes an AWESOME DD! It's simple, light, geared well, and feels more responsive (pulls harder). There's really nothing 'wrong' with them, just depends on what you want the car for. I ran consistant 1.72 60's in my AWD, but having it loose all through 2nd is really fun too. Easier on clutches and brakes imo.

$300 means it should be bought reguardless......just have fun!

 

[stealth mullet]

That's not the point i'm trying to make. I was expressing the fact that FWD's can run impressive times, as AWD's can. I was replying to "stealth mullet's" post, in which he seemed to be neglecting FWD's on the track (comparing John Shepherd's AWD to FWD dsm's).

if you think fwd is so great, then why are only 4 of the top 25 fwd?!?! mean while the other 21 are awd? last time i check 21>4.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/timeslips.php

and by the way...an 8 sec in the 1/8 will put you around a 12.5-13.5. not rather impressive if you ask me.

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

I think people are forgetting that FWD's can and will pull the same 60 ft times as an awd will on the track with slicks. He did say he wanted a track car right?

FWD that are set up to pull those 60's are few and far in between because everyone thinks the same about them as AUTO trannies. Drag with an AUTO? NO WAY! Thats another arguement though.

When in all seriousness a properly set up FWD will net better times then its AWD counterpart at the TRACK. Theres no denying it. The only advantage an AWD has at the track is its 60 ft, and thats eliminated with slicks.

Now on the street.. AWD>FWD.

 

[stevieraywolf]

It all really depends on your driving style. If you can't drive good, AWD is for you. If you're awesome, FWD should be more your stlye.

Just kiddin.... I like FWD because it's pro's suit my style more than the pro's of AWD. But, from an outside point of view, a good driver should be able to use all to their fullest. And I am not a know it all, I just know a good deal.

Oh, by the way, of course weight transfers to the back tires. That's why it's called a transfer case. But in a FWD, you don't need to wait for the weight to transfer, it's already there. And it's not always 50whp, but I've seen it get up to there. (A nice little miata wanted AWD, and it took me a month and a half to get that up. Ended up nice, although the guy driving it crashed it two weeks later; spun out at a stop sign)

 

[stealth mullet]

It all really depends on your driving style. If you can't drive good, AWD is for you. If you're awesome, FWD should be more your stlye.

Just kiddin.... I like FWD because it's pro's suit my style more than the pro's of AWD. But, from an outside point of view, a good driver should be able to use all to their fullest. And I am not a know it all, I just know a good deal.

Oh, by the way, of course weight transfers to the back tires. That's why it's called a transfer case. But in a FWD, you don't need to wait for the weight to transfer, it's already there. And it's not always 50whp, but I've seen it get up to there. (A nice little miata wanted AWD, and it took me a month and a half to get that up. Ended up nice, although the guy driving it crashed it two weeks later; spun out at a stop sign)

then why do all the fast fwd cars have wheely bars?!?!

fwd = ghey.

 

[123abc]

Damn, about 75% of you guys really only care about going straight, don't you?

Fwd's have much better turn in ability in the corner. It just takes a little more throttle control to get it out of the corner or out of the hole.

 

[zero97tsi]

Damn, about 75% of you guys really only care about going straight, don't you?

Fwd's have much better turn in ability in the corner. It just takes a little more throttle control to get it out of the corner or out of the hole.

True, they tend not to understear as much as AWD, but honestly, I'd rather have the understear, with the grip and power out of the corner of AWD.

I agree that FWD isn't a horrible waste of time. whatever, it still fun. But when it comes down to it, the AWD syblings wear the pants in the family. As far as track cars go there is a reason the 1/4 mile times become extremely lop-sided when you get into the 10's and faster.