Altered Mental Status (1G AWD 5spd)

[Anfurnyy]

I saw that/found that as well after a search, but someone in the thread mentioned that 'If it just cranks but doesn't start that's not the hot start issue, the hot start issue is when it turns over but idles like crap' and that's not the problem I have. I have infinite cranking like its a carb'd vehicle that's vapor locked.


It doesn't have this issue on the MAF, and didn't have this issue on the very early struggle SD maps I had where it wouldn't idle because it was so rich. IDK why or what would have the power, but it's 100% tune related.

Sounds like your cranking fuel adjust likely needs adjusted. I'd assume it probably needs reduced since you have larger injectors?

 

[Anfurnyy]

I cannot for the life of me find what post I got this screenshot from but this is what I followed to get my car squared away.

*edit* - Found it

ECMlink - Setting up VE table?

I'm curious to how you guys are adjusting the SD table and wondering if I'm understanding this correctly. First, you throw in a VE table that ya want (Like Sam from RRE shows), and then put in 14.7 in off boost areas and 10.5 (or whatever your target fuel is) into the openloopmaxoct table. Then...

www.dsmtuners.com

This all seems to make sense to me.
As far as I know, LinkTools is no longer *widely* available either.

 

[DreamChaser7]

Basically it's this:

Determine global via the process I said above. Then never change global % or base fuel pressure again. That is it's own completely separate thing.

Put in your 7v - 19v values. The reality is the only values used of those is like 12 and 14. Maybe lower if the battery is half dead. But I view that table as a shape. That shape is tattoo'd to the injectors as their operating personality. What values you choose to use may or may not determine how the injectors do in fact behave. Anyways, that is to be set in stone.

So we have global set in stone and 7v-19v set in stone. What's left? The VE table or the global deadtime adjustment on the fuel tab.

Well, I'm very conservative with leaving the SD table near "stock". It can be smoothed out for sure, it can be shifted for peak VE on a larger turbo for sure, but the ECU is SO reliant on the airflow values being realistic it's a cascading effect of shit being wrong when that is messed with too much. And ironically that is the table everyone messes with extremely because it's instant gratification.

Now it's boiled down to global deadtime, and the only way to adjust that would be on the fuel tab. You'll either lock it in open loop and make afratioest=wb during idle by adjusting the deadtime on the fuel tab, OR, you can leave it in closed loop and look at combinedFT as enriquez suggested above to get combinedFT hovering at a value of zero. I'm not a fan of using combinedFT because it's a clouded value using fuel trims. I guess it's fine if you do it over a period of time and constantly go up to "reset fuel trims" while making any single adjustment.



The amount - or + you can go would be the limitation of 7v or 19v in relation to the top or bottom of that chart. Perhaps it could go more extreme but you'd be way out in the weeds with that.

Understand that the global adjustment on the fuel tab is the same as the 7v-19v adjustments. Putting 100 in deadtime on the fuel tab is the exact same thing as raising ALL 7v-19v values up 100. Putting -500 on the fuel tab is the same as lowering every 7v-19v value down 500. I guess if you were a masochist needing the value on the fuel tab to be 0 or never negative you could do so but there's no need.

I personally appreciate this sort of lay man explanation never having done it yet. I won’t remember it until I finally get to do it, but I’ll let you re-explain to me then if I lose these print outs and your willing to explain to the dummy at that point.

 

[chrisman287]

I have infinite cranking like its a carb'd vehicle that's vapor locked. It doesn't have this issue on the MAF, and didn't have this issue on the very early struggle SD maps I had where it wouldn't idle because it was so rich. IDK why or what would have the power, but it's 100% tune related.

I adjusted global and deadtimes tonight. Here's a short idle log I got combinedFT and STFT hovering around 0. Airflowperrev isnt as high either. Hopefully this helps you. I left the injbattadjust settings @Stapl3 gave. Maybe he can chime in and let us know if this is the correct way to do it.

 

[Anfurnyy]

I adjusted global and deadtimes tonight. Here's a short idle log I got combinedFT and STFT hovering around 0. Airflowperrev isnt as high either. Hopefully this helps you. I left the injbattadjust settings @Stapl3 gave. Maybe he can chime in and let us know if this is the correct way to do it.

Are you targeting 9.3 AFR at wot?

 

[CrackedDSM]

Thankfully, only had like 3 wires to solder and do before I could install the gauges. Got that done pretty quick, mounted the gauges, and super happy with the results. I need to go into 'Link and put in the WB settings so it logs properly, but I'll do that later. For now, just enjoying my hard work.

I hate running wires. Lol. But, eh, like I said. Super happy with it.


For now, let's move on to this. The car has sat for 3-4+ days straight without being ran, and this is what it does upon startup. It'll keep smoking like this for awhile if you let it. Like a campfire, man.




But after actually driving the car and romping on it a bit, it fully clears up to this within like a mile or so of driving.



Doesn't smoke under WOT and boost after clearing it out. That's the car idling after a few pulls, without turning it off.


So...what do you guys think. Why's she smoking like that. I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but I don't wanna influence the results/opinions.

 

[Anfurnyy]

Thankfully, only had like 3 wires to solder and do before I could install the gauges. Got that done pretty quick, mounted the gauges, and super happy with the results. I need to go into 'Link and put in the WB settings so it logs properly, but I'll do that later. For now, just enjoying my hard work.

View attachment 752944

I hate running wires. Lol. But, eh, like I said. Super happy with it.


For now, let's move on to this. The car has sat for 3-4+ days straight without being ran, and this is what it does upon startup. It'll keep smoking like this for awhile if you let it. Like a campfire, man.




But after actually driving the car and romping on it a bit, it fully clears up to this within like a mile or so of driving.



Doesn't smoke under WOT and boost after clearing it out. That's the car idling after a few pulls, without turning it off.


So...what do you guys think. Why's she smoking like that. I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but I don't wanna influence the results/opinions.

Does it smoke if you give it a little gas after sitting for a minute or two?
What about if you decel in gear?
What does it smell like?

 

[CrackedDSM]

Does it smoke if you give it a little gas after sitting for a minute or two?
What about if you decel in gear?
What does it smell like?

After it clears up it doesn't smoke no matter what you do. Let it idle for a bit and tap the gas and it's fine. Decel in gear is also smoke-free after it clears on the initial drive. It smells bad. Like burning oil. Not sweet, and not odorless like water. The smoke has a blue tint to it.

 

[Anfurnyy]

After it clears up it doesn't smoke no matter what you do. Let it idle for a bit and tap the gas and it's fine. Decel in gear is also smoke-free after it clears on the initial drive. It smells bad. Like burning oil. Not sweet, and not odorless like water. The smoke has a blue tint to it.

Interesting. The fact that it is doesn't smoke on deck would be odd if it is what we think it is.

 

[jesse12345]

That definitely seems like valve stem seals if they haven't been replaced. If it's bad enough you could take the exhaust manifold off and if your lucky it'll be wet and that will for sure give you the answer. I had that on a few cars now except one was so bad it would smoke after letting it sit 10 minutes, we called it the mosquito fogger.

 

[enriquez2000]

That definitely seems like valve stem seals if they haven't been replaced. If it's bad enough you could take the exhaust manifold off and if your lucky it'll be wet and that will for sure give you the answer. I had that on a few cars now except one was so bad it would smoke after letting it sit 10 minutes, we called it the mosquito fogger.

This... once seals warm up they well seal...

 

[BLACK'98DSM]

Best way to tell if it's valve seals is to look at the exhaust valve stems. Oil will burn out of the exhaust manifold but the valve stems will stay damp, just look in the ports and see. I've seen this a ton with old Hondas and DSM's. Smoke on a cold start that clears up after a minute or two and doesn't reoccur until the next cold start. No signs in the exhaust system besides expected carbon from burning oil but the visible portion of the valve stems makes it obvious. If the seals were replaced once or twice that doesn't mean they seal well. Sitting for a prolonged period of time makes the rubber portion of the seals harden, and hard seals don't really seal. They don't have to be even a decade old, just not enough use in that decade or less. Modern oil is more than a lubricant - it's a conditioner as well. If seals haven't been conditioned for a while, they will harden/dry rot and leak. Rubber seals in a way are comparable to human hair. With no cleaning and conditioning for extended periods of time, they become quite brittle. The only way to solve brittle hair is to let it break off or cut it off and let the new soft and conditioned hair take over. Same with rubber seals, once hardened it's time to remove and replace them with new. High mileage oil has those extra additives that get absorbed by rubber seals to cause expansion and softening, but that's only a band aid as once they're gone they will need replacement. I'm sure you know this but the thorough explanation should give you something additional to think about and look for.

 

[BLACK'98DSM]

Just one of many cases in point. Car sat for 4-10 years with little use. Only smoked on cold starts and never after. Rebuilt cylinder head solved the issue entirely. All oil burned away more than an inch or two from the valve but fresh oil seeped past the seals during stagnation. Entire exhaust system including manifold was dry from burning away.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Can't say thanks enough for all the confirmation fellas.


I'm so intimidated by trying to replace the seals with the head still on the car that I'm legitimately gonna save money up and just do a 2G head swap. Lol. Would be a great time to swap the cams out for some better ones too, but we'll see how money ends up being in the new year.

I think honestly for now I'm just gonna roll with it and let it smoke for the first bit I drive and stop whenever it gets bad enough to never stop.


Don't let your engines sit, folks. If they do, I guess fill it completely with oil and maybe turn the oil pump over once in awhile to circulate it? IDK.

 

[DSMPT]

As for the smoke at cold start for few min, besides worn valve stem seals, this may also happen after cranking for long or starting the engine very often only for idling or very short period of driving especially on a loose built engine or an engine that has worn cylinder wall or oil control rings. In this case, sometimes you also see milky oil on oil filler cap or oil dipstick.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

How fresh is this engine?
I say rings that sat for a long time in a semi-rusty cylinder. After driving, the rings expand and seal up. Have you done any extended driving for an hour or more? Idle time is not good to get that to seal but sometimes an extended drive at a constant speed will help.

 

[Anfurnyy]

Can't say thanks enough for all the confirmation fellas.


I'm so intimidated by trying to replace the seals with the head still on the car that I'm legitimately gonna save money up and just do a 2G head swap. Lol. Would be a great time to swap the cams out for some better ones too, but we'll see how money ends up being in the new year.

I think honestly for now I'm just gonna roll with it and let it smoke for the first bit I drive and stop whenever it gets bad enough to never stop.


Don't let your engines sit, folks. If they do, I guess fill it completely with oil and maybe turn the oil pump over once in awhile to circulate it? IDK.

Why not just pull the head? Much less expensive than buying a whole new head. Just some downtime and honestly you could do it in a day if you had the valve spring compressor tool and the seals.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Why not just pull the head? Much less expensive than buying a whole new head. Just some downtime and honestly you could do it in a day if you had the valve spring compressor tool and the seals.

I actually had that thought after I posted that. But my thought process is I really want to run a 2g head and Evo 3 IM, so it’d be a good time to jump ship. However that is a very good argument.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Drove the old girl to work. It’s slow cranking like the battery is weak or dying. Kind of weirding me out because the alternator is brand new less than a couple months old, and the battery I think is about a year old.


Hoping the new gauges aren’t pulling a slow drain of some kind. I’ll do some diagnosing this weekend. For now I’ve got my handy dandy jump box. Woot!

 

[CrackedDSM]

I ain't diagnosed SHEEIT, but I bought some small trinkets from my main man @jersygsx and being the awesome dude he is, he threw in a couple of small but REALLY rare/hard to find screw covers for me.

Ugh. Bare and sad.

Much better. Happy and comfortable.

I'm gonna clean it up, but I don't really plan honestly to use the cupholder, I'm just throwing it in there because it was an option and it feels right.


Now the little trinket screw covers he threw in are next, and honestly...I'm so happy with these. They actually ended up helping the leather not separate from the metal backing, and it looks 10x better IMO.

Before

After!

Still a few things that need addressed, but your eyes won't ever be so low to see them. Lol. So happy and can't thank Jersygsx enough. Always such a pleasant buying experience.

 

[Justin DuBois]

I ain't diagnosed SHEEIT, but I bought some small trinkets from my main man @jersygsx and being the awesome dude he is, he threw in a couple of small but REALLY rare/hard to find screw covers for me.

View attachment 753226

Ugh. Bare and sad.

View attachment 753227

Much better. Happy and comfortable.

View attachment 753228

I'm gonna clean it up, but I don't really plan honestly to use the cupholder, I'm just throwing it in there because it was an option and it feels right.


Now the little trinket screw covers he threw in are next, and honestly...I'm so happy with these. They actually ended up helping the leather not separate from the metal backing, and it looks 10x better IMO.

Before
View attachment 753229

After!

View attachment 753230

Still a few things that need addressed, but your eyes won't ever be so low to see them. Lol. So happy and can't thank Jersygsx enough. Always such a pleasant buying experience.

Yeah - He's awesome. Sent me some things like this too.

 

[GST with PSI]

Most likely the newer style 4.9 sensor going out. They are quicker reading than the old 4.2 sensor but their lifespan is crap and are really hit or miss in my experience.

I'm not 100% on this but I think all widebands use the 4.9 sensor nowadays.

This. I've had the same LC-1 in my Galant for years and it works perfectly.

However, my other Galant (820) just ate through LC-1/2 sensors, some after less than a year. There was no rhyme or reason to it. I stay with the Innovate stuff because I like the accuracy and the ability to easily replace the Bosch sensors, which you can pick up from most local parts stores.

For the offset values, you can do a little math so you're not completely guessing: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/gsc-s1-vs-gsc-s2-should-i-go-up.511210/post-153641737

 

[MindBlowin03]

This. I've had the same LC-1 in my Galant for years and it works perfectly.

However, my other Galant (820) just ate through LC-1/2 sensors, some after less than a year. There was no rhyme or reason to it. I stay with the Innovate stuff because I like the accuracy and the ability to easily replace the Bosch sensors, which you can pick up from most local parts stores.

That's been my experience as well. Mostly with Innovate and PLX. Most have been lasting quite a while lately but I had one go out within 100 miles one time. I've called both companies about it and they tell me it's the sensors and there's nothing they can do about it. I do keep an extra sensor on my shelf just in case but haven't had to use it luckily.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Let the Talon sit for a few days, haven't touched it or did a thing to it as far as anything that needs power. Battery tested at 12.1 volts just sitting there, about 71-73* outside. Car started, also not as powerful/strong as before, and battery charged at the battery at 13.9v.


So it's not the charging system...is that low enough to warrant a new battery fellas?



Other than that, I tried to input voltages in Link to properly log the AEM X Wideband, but it was stuck at 4.98v. After researching, apparently you have to ground the brown wire to the ECU, or to the shared ground source of the wideband. I didn't know this, but now I do. Lol. So, I'll do that later when I have freetime next week because right now the brown wire isn't grounded at all.

 

[Anfurnyy]

Other than that, I tried to input voltages in Link to properly log the AEM X Wideband, but it was stuck at 4.98v. After researching, apparently you have to ground the brown wire to the ECU, or to the shared ground source of the wideband. I didn't know this, but now I do. Lol. So, I'll do that later when I have freetime next week because right now the brown wire isn't grounded at all.

Yeah the gauge needs sensor ground or you'll have a ground offset between what the gauge sees and uses for ground and what the ECU uses for sensors.