hx40 vs sc6262?

[JusMX141]

we should have a holset vs all other turbos class at the dsm shootout.

Interesting you said that, considering the winner of the Bracket 1 class at the 2009 DSM Shootout was Holset-powered by a turbo that I rebuilt. That means that out of all the 12.99 & faster cars which entered that class (DSM or Evo), no matter what was bolted to their manifold, Dave beat them and took home the first place trophy.

He also did this with completely blown-out front struts, and a stock 6-bolt with 139k on the ticker. The struts were so blown that he actually contemplated not running the car the day before the race. I'm glad he changed his mind.

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Anything you'd like to add?

 

[ceedawg]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/313476-holset-turbos-results-only-complete-installed-systems.html#post151844443

Wow I did not realize that was badman. He only lives 20 minutes from me!

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/354739-10-9-128mph-hx40.html:hellyeah:

 

[gsxkid81]

Interesting you said that, considering the winner of the Bracket 1 class at the 2009 DSM Shootout was Holset-powered by a turbo that I rebuilt. That means that out of all the 12.99 & faster cars which entered that class (DSM or Evo), no matter what was bolted to their manifold, Dave beat them and took home the first place trophy.

He also did this with completely blown-out front struts, and a stock 6-bolt with 139k on the ticker. The struts were so blown that he actually contemplated not running the car the day before the race. I'm glad he changed his mind.

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when i said lets go to the track i wasnt talking about bracket racing. heads up thats the only way to prove who is faster.like i said i will put my 6765 up against any holset turbo setup.

 

[dsm-onster]

You're still talking about a turbo larger than a 6262 or hx40. That's like comparing a gt35r to a s4**.

The hx40 still ahs the record with the .55 a/r housing or ANY bolton housing even those that are bigger and certainly over those of the pte bolton line. The hx40 still spools to 20psi by 4K. The hx40 still is right on par with a gt35r. Kp116 net better .5 sec time with a bolton than a non-bolton gt35r with a similar setup a guy posted about in here with only 4 more psi boost. Gt35r setups have done better and so have hx40 setups. . .The hx40 still is a viable option vs all turbos in the gt35r/s362/pte62 range. The hx40 still has done 100whp more than the OPs goal in bolton form making it by FAR more affordable. It's a viable and convincing option. Anyone wanting a 600whp turbo has a slew of options now. It's all preference in choice. You can't say any of them don't work when such a high percentage of users for each have met his goal.

No need to race heads up. Time slips and dyno proof have been pulled out already. But really you should at least be running against turbos in your same range of flow.

 

[gsxkid81]

the reason i run a 6765 is because the class i run my car in allows the turbo to be no bigger than 67mm.but i am willing to put my setup against any holset setup.not just an hx40

 

[D's GS-T]

Ive never run a holset, and probably never will, but holsets have proven to make power over and over again. They spool great, are reliable, and make great power, what the hell else do you want them to do? The turbo is only one part of the damn car. Holset turbos spool great, and make great power, it isnt there fault if the car isnt going fast, the turbos are doing their job, the rest of the car is not. if there were serious dsm race cars with holsets they be hauling ass just like any similar sized turbo. theres alot more to having a fast car then just the turbo, you cant always just judge the turbo by the 1/4 times. way to many variables

 

[Kevin TSI]

Ive never run a holset, and probably never will, but holsets have proven to make power over and over again. They spool great, are reliable, and make great power, what the hell else do you want them to do? The turbo is only one part of the damn car. Holset turbos spool great, and make great power, it isnt there fault if the car isnt going fast, the turbos are doing their job, the rest of the car is not. if there were serious dsm race cars with holsets they be hauling ass just like any similar sized turbo. theres alot more to having a fast car then just the turbo, you cant always just judge the turbo by the 1/4 times. way to many variables

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

 

[TSimage]

There's been hx40 dsm cars already to the track that have beat your times.


You saw that? But you said dyno numbers are useless with out track times. I posted track times of an hx50 2.0L 4cylinder with 4wd that weights 2900lbs.

I'm sorry but first of I posted up dynojet numbers for most of those and dynojets are by far the most consistant across the board. That's one of the dj selling points. And second i posted times for those dyno numbers. . . Third. I certainly hope you're not looking for an et to match a dyo number. A MPH is accurate. And all the hx40 results I posted have 132-140mph speeds. Certainly you understand how much driver skill comes into play for an ET.

If you want 1000whp, you shouldn't be on the internet looking for advice.

That have beat my to4b V trim times, but not my 35r times.. I wasn't saying it as an all out means. I can run those 11s times with a td05 framed turbo in all honesty and plan to do so with my new GVR4. (But that is neither here nor there)

As far as the 1000whp comment, yet another "un-wise" statement from you. I don't claim to know everything, and never will, thus my curiosity is justified. Why can't I ask what Holset is in the power range of the BW turbo I have rand and or am planning to run? You act as if you are the Holset expert yet when anyone who actually brings forth a legitimate question other than "0mgz I can haz billet turb0z?!" you don't do well answering the question.

I didn't ask if anyone could run around the bush, backpedaling like a congressman, nor did I ask how to make 1000awhp. The build I set up is every bit capable of 1000awhp+ Given the disadvantage of an Auto and an AWD drivetrain. I just simply wanted to know what people knew about the HX55+ sized turbo. All over there is very little info about Holsets in general but even less about the larger framed turbos people don't normally care to run.

Again, if you don't have an exact answer to my questions then we are doing nothing more than adding useless info and cluttering up yet another Holset thread with fickle banter.

 

[doesitonall4rs]

How did this thread even make it this far? How can you even begin to compare a junk, 1 season PTE turbo, to a turbo that can last 200k miles running 35psi on a diesel truck and then be swapped onto a 4 cylinder and walk over that turbo. Shop cars run PTE/FP/Garrett turbo's because thier vendors want them too. If they had to pay retail out of pocket I guarantee it would be a different story.

That is the most important thing to remember. I for one never would want a shop to run a holset in their car, because as soon as that happens the price of holsets is going to start getting driven up. I love having the ability to go on Cumminsforums and buying a used turbo for 200 dollars. I have been extremely happy with my HX35, I don't have track/dyno results, nor do I really care about them. We just have to remember one important quote from the Holset thread, and that "They are designed to be overworked and underpaid."

To who ever buys a holset new is really wasting their money and missing the entire point of going the holset route.

But in all honesty comparing 1/4 mile times and turbos really doesn't mean dick, there are low 11second and 10second and even 9second 16G cars. A turbo only goes so far, I feel like things like reliability, cost, spool characteristics, serviceability, and other things that don't directly pertain to the drag strip are far more important in turbo selection.

Anybody can say "oh run turbo X it will net you XX.XX time over turbo Y which will net you YY.YY time." Bottom line is it's going to come down to so many other variables other than just a turbo choice, things like driver, tune, etc.

 

[dsm-onster]

AMEN! about the ET arguement.

That have beat my to4b V trim times, but not my 35r times.. I wasn't saying it as an all out means. I can run those 11s times with a td05 framed turbo in all honesty and plan to do so with my new GVR4. (But that is neither here nor there)

As far as the 1000whp comment, yet another "un-wise" statement from you. I don't claim to know everything, and never will, thus my curiosity is justified. Why can't I ask what Holset is in the power range of the BW turbo I have rand and or am planning to run? You act as if you are the Holset expert yet when anyone who actually brings forth a legitimate question other than "0mgz I can haz billet turb0z?!" you don't do well answering the question.

I didn't ask if anyone could run around the bush, backpedaling like a congressman, nor did I ask how to make 1000awhp. The build I set up is every bit capable of 1000awhp+ Given the disadvantage of an Auto and an AWD drivetrain. I just simply wanted to know what people knew about the HX55+ sized turbo. All over there is very little info about Holsets in general but even less about the larger framed turbos people don't normally care to run.

Again, if you don't have an exact answer to my questions then we are doing nothing more than adding useless info and cluttering up yet another Holset thread with fickle banter.

There was no backpedalling by me. There was an attempt to keep this on topic about the hx40 of which there's plenty of proof provided to show the OP that it can certainly meet and exceed the OPs goal.

All your class has left your posts completely and you're now resorting to insults. I showed alot more proof than yes 0mgz yo can has billet turb0z. Infact, the holset results I've been posting have no billet wheels. Again, you're acting like a child. YOUR question? This isn't even your thread. I gave you an answer to what an hx50 turbo can do with a 2900lb AWD 2.0L I4, of which you asked about. I only entertained your initial question because it happened to be a turbo that is in the upper range of the op's goal (since he wants 600whp but the ability for a bit more). You are looking at a 1000whp turbo wondering which holset turbo will match that; your posted your 1000whp turbo specs right on this page asking which holset has similar specs! You most certainly are looking for comparisons with 1000whp turbos. . .Go pi$$ in the other thread where a guy is asking about the hx35 with your questions about 1000whp holsets too.

I wasn't talking about you WRT the gt35r. I was talking about turbo monk3y. He mentioned running 11.0 after swapping to a SMIM, while kp116 still ran a 10.9 with a stock manifold and only 4 more psi as the difference. In a bolton housing and other wise a similar setup. Thusly, the hx40 is a viable option to the gt35r/s362/pte62 size turbo. . . Yep folks have gone faster with a gt35r in a garrett housing. But so has a bolton hx40. So has a 14b in a FWD

And then, following up your asanine childish responses with 'dyno sheets are worthless without ETs.' D's GS-T hit the point right on the money. Afterall a FWD has done mid 10s with a 14b. . . So we are ALL going in the wrong direction right? Seat time, driver skill, and suspension differences affect et the same or even more than whp output. 600whp on a dynojet will be very close to 600whp on any other dynojet. And we all know how much lower a dyno dynamics or mustang dyno reads. The MPH and weight is what is important. And the hx40 is putting down 132-139mph for 2700-3100lb race weights. This is a lagitimate turbo for the OPs goal and has been proven. Along with that, proven to spool faster than pretty much anything out there and achieve that goal in a bolton housing giving it the least expensive entry price of all the turbos. . . Yet you and "power" whine and cry about there being no results. What a joke!

Start your own thread concering your questions about holset turbos that are the same size as that 1000whp BW turbo of which you posted specs. In the mean time, you got an answer about what the hx50 can do with race weight 1/4 time and dyno results, even as a 2.0L I4 with AWD . Then results on dsmtimes.org with the hx50/55 hybrid with race weight similar to a full weight awd 1g. So since this isn't YOUR thread, help answer the OPs question about the hx40 or 6262. You can always leave if you don't have anything to contribute. You brought up a question about a holset turbo that barely is on the upper end of the OPs range and you got an answer backed with proof. If you want to see an example of how to assist and properly reply to a thread, see mine and the other wisemen's responses. No fluff; all data backed by logs dynos, 1/4 results, and proof of said dynos, 1/4 results; with sincere effort put into staying on topic.

Back on topic. Again. . .

OP, here's a 140mph trap speed with a +2700lb dsm. Trap speed is right on par with a 600whp dynojet number. Needs more seat time with that 60ft. But who looks as ET to judge how much HP a setup is making ? Bolton housing. AND this is the dime a dosen smaller 8blade hx40. 140mph with over 2700lbs weight that matches a higher dyno number than he recorded. RRE's dyno always seamed to have read low. The power is there that matches your goal. As everyone else says, look at et with a grain of salt. Anyone with an awd 1g trapping 139mph has a 10 second car, and only needs seat time considering how fast that turbo spooled and how broad his powerband was; and considering his race weight, would likely net 600whp on a dynojet which is the industry standard now-a-days. And this setup wasn't even pushed to the limit yet. This is just a reinforcement of this below. . .

Assault187 made 600whp, the results your looking for with the hx40. Dacowgod made 575whp with a lower reading mustang dyno (on buschur's dyno) with the same turbo. Kp116 ran in the 10s with the smaller .55 a/r bolton housing. And badman21 made 85whp more than your 600whp goal with the smaller .55 a/r housing. <==All making exactly what you're looking for: 600whp and the capability for about 100whp more.

The .55 a/r housing hx40 spools to 20psi by 3900rpms in 3rd gear. Considering it spools THAT fast initially, you have no worries about transient response. Not many bolton turbos are consistantly in that range of above results with that spool speed. Fp3065 and a few fpreds, since it's been out for so long. But realistically the fpred needs a clip to see the above results, which kills spool speed. And the fp3065 certainly doesn't have the dyno results that the hx40 has; so it doesn't allow the breathing room you want past 600whp or so. Pushing the bolton hx40 is like having an fp3065 with a 100-150shot.

. . .So either turbo you choose, you can see your goal and have breathing room. Cost of entry for the hx40 is far, far lower expecially if you go used-rebuilt (see the last example AND kp116 since both were running a 2g exhaust manifold). The 6262 has lots of shop support.

 

[andy4g63]

Matt is there a listing for his setup? I love that exh mani with the single wastegate setup. Who made that exh mani? Great vids also.

This should be Punishment Racing T3 tubular mani.. Nowadays they have them divided too..

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

So has a 14b in a FWD

Afterall a FWD has done mid 10s with a 14b. . .

Theres a couple guys that did that with a T25. On a FWD too.

 

[dsm-onster]

HAHAHA. . .true. Must be because they are running garrett

 

[doesitonall4rs]

All this can be summed up with one sentence. "A turbo doesn't make the car, the car and driver make the turbo". There is no ands, ifs, or buts about it.

I kinda feel that a holset isn't a new thing to the performance automotive tuning industry. But I feel that a holset is a fairly new thing for the DSM crowd, and being that there is no big shop backing a holset built drag car, progression is going to be a tad bit slower. Because these are real people, with regular jobs, and learning curves dialing these cars in and finding out what works really well with a holset.

I personally respect any DSM thats fast, but I really feel that when somebody dialed in something for 1/2 the cost, thats a tad bit more impressive to me!

I showed alot more proof than yes 0mgz yo can has billet turb0z. Infact, the holset results I've been posting have no billet wheels.

Correct me if I am wrong on this but hasn't holset been doing the billet wheel thing for years? My friend got a used holset hx40 for 200 dollars. (The compressor housing and hotside definitaly looked like the turbo has had a ton of years of use on it, but the compressor wheel, turbine wheel, had no chips or scores on them and the fact that the turbo had zero shaftplay and the turbo spun very nicely showed that what really matters about the turbo was still perfect!) When he got it, it said Volvo on the compressor housing(I believe it was off a volvo bus).

Needless to say we looked at the wheel and it was infact a 6blade billet compressor wheel after we cleaned the wheel a tiny bit because it was really dirty but had no chips or bent fins on it at all! All the turbo needed was to be clocked and have the Bullseye Hot side put on it! (off course he cleaned it up and repainted the compressor housing) He has been running his car at 30psi for awhile now and the turbo has been doing amazing . So for 200 dollars + 250 for the hotside he got a SICK SICK turbo!

It hurts me to say this but I kinda of wish he gets out of the DSM game and parts out his car so I can get that turbo offa him!

It is also amazing how different his turbo sounds on up spool as opposed to mine.

 

[dsm-onster]

Absolutely. Holset has been doing the billet thing since 1Gs were still being produced in Il. I was simply stating that none of the holset results I posted had billet wheels. . . The billet thing is just an added bonus of durability and less weight. . .

 

[doesitonall4rs]

Absolutely. Holset has been doing the billet thing since 1Gs were still being produced in Il. I was simply stating that none of the holset results I posted had billet wheels. . . The billet thing is just an added bonus of durability and less weight. . .

Damn I def did not know the billet wheel thing has been around for that long! It just seems the Billet wheel thing has just cought up with the tuning market within the last ~2 years. I guess diesels have been doing it for years!

You know what I have always wondered? Why are Borg Warners SOOOO damn expensive? I feel like I can't find one for less than 500 used? I mean essentially you are doing the same thing as the Holset, with putting a diesel turbo on a gas engine. I wonder if they are just higher quality then the holsets in the diesel market, or maybe more rare?

 

[dsm-onster]

Diesel motors are the reason why there's been so much research in to surge and issues that cause wheels to break. Billet aluminum is much more durable.

It's also why holset has the original patent on the surge cover. And one reason why the run HUGE turbine housings to counter surge. They found a way to get really good spool with lower energy diesel exhaust gases (to help with providing the right amount of air for the a diesel at low rpms that needs to tow) and spent lots of money on compressor efficiency and antisurge techniques.

That's why when you see a holset turbo, you think that's going to be laggy, but you're not really seeing how small the wheels are inside. The compressor inducers arn't huge, nor are the turbine exducers. The spool thing is reasonable considering how much a difference in the inducer-exducer measurements are (much more efficiency: so less energy is converted into more boost earlier). Whats amazing is how much it flows considering how small the wheels are, how much of a difference in the diameters, and how long the tech has been around. The hx40 has been around since 1994 (They were still building 14b powered cars then!!!!).

None of this sh!t is new. It's just taken DSMers YEARS to wake up and try something new. Which is silly since the 20g and 50-trim and gt35r and 60-1 are all diesel turbos. There are more race cars in europe with holsets than garretts. It's not jsut that holset has a stranglehold on the diesel market and vice versa for the gasser market for garrett. A turbo is a turbo and airflow and demand is airflow and demand. There's more difference in flow demand from a 4g63 and pushrod buick 3.8 than there is in a 4g63 and a cummins 5.9L diesel. Most forget 1 KEY ingredient to turbine work.

 

[doesitonall4rs]

spent lots of money on compressor efficiency and antisurge techniques.

That's why when you see a holset turbo, you think that's going to be laggy, but you're not really seeing how small the wheels are inside. The compressor inducers arn't huge, nor are the turbine exducers.

Not going to lie when I first got my holset, I thought the same exact thing, even after reading and reading on here about their quick spooling characteristics.

I took this pic before the install.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

But like you said the turbine wheel and compressor wheel are not MASSIVE by any means. The holset frame is just ridiculously large! But like you said there are reasons behind that.

 

[Turbo Monk3y]

I wasn't talking about you WRT the gt35r. I was talking about turbo monk3y. He mentioned running 11.0 after swapping to a SMIM, while kp116 still ran a 10.9 with a stock manifold and only 4 more psi as the difference. In a bolton housing and other wise a similar setup. Thusly, the hx40 is a viable option to the gt35r/s362/pte62 size turbo. . . Yep folks have gone faster with a gt35r in a garrett housing. But so has a bolton hx40. So has a 14b in a FWD

I was running on 215 series all seasons. The trap speeds were identical with me running lower boost. If I were using the tires he had been using It would have been a different story. Plus think about 4Psi MORE on my OLD setup with good tires... Yeah. I think you will clearly see the outcome of that. Higher trap speed and better E.T.

 

[dsm-onster]

No shit, about a half second different which would be huge!. . . But You're running a large garrett housing and exhaust manifold upgrade and intake manifold upgrade. Sorry, but the goes to a bolton that can do the same with just a little more boost and much less build.

Still wasn't even on drag radials. Unless your admitting that there's far more to a 10second build than a turbo selection.

 

[Turbo Monk3y]

No shit, about a half second different which would be huge!. . . But You're running a large garrett housing and exhaust manifold upgrade and intake manifold upgrade. Sorry, but the goes to a bolton that can do the same with just a little more boost and much less build.

Still wasn't even on drag radials. Unless your admitting that there's far more to a 10second build than a turbo selection.

A large garrett housing? .63 Ford 5 bolt style is smaller than the newer 4bolt design and flows less making it the smallest available. A turbonetics cast manifold is nothing over an evo 3 or stock 2g. What your failing to understand is that 4psi is a significant amount of boost. On an efficient setup 1 psi could equate to 20hp if not more.

But enough with this. I'm more curious as to why your trying so hard to make your side of the disagreement so much more than it really needs to be. Why don't you yourself try out different setups and report back on the times your car is running? I don't see you doing any of this. You keep hiding behind other peoples accomplishments rather than making me eat my own words by sharing with me your own.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

I don't get why people are trying to fight for PTE6262, GT35R (why are you even comparing a ball bearing turbo to a journal?), and Borg Warner and trying to compare them to a turbo that was designed over a decade ago. It's hilarious they can even be compared. That's how far ahead of the curve Holset was. Everyone wants to jump on the billet wheel bandwagon when that design hasn't been new for a decade either. You should all be thankful Holset did what they did with thier turbo's otherwise none of your PTE or Garrett turbo's would probably be where they are today.

 

[Turbo Monk3y]

I don't get why people are trying to fight for PTE6262, GT35R (why are you even comparing a ball bearing turbo to a journal?), and Borg Warner and trying to compare them to a turbo that was designed over a decade ago. It's hilarious they can even be compared. That's how far ahead of the curve Holset was. Everyone wants to jump on the billet wheel bandwagon when that design hasn't been new for a decade either. You should all be thankful Holset did what they did with thier turbo's otherwise none of your PTE or Garrett turbo's would probably be where they are today.

I want to see results/facts that are worth someone ditching the proven race turbo's for an OEM turbo that supposedly are THAT much better for cheaper. Thats the only true reason I'm in here. He did post a few. But I guess these turbos really don't have a crowd that want's to push them to the limits.

 

[dsm-onster]

You're just straying off topic to get in a pissing match. The facts are the facts. No one said it's that much better. But it clearly has done just fine for the op's goal and much much more, and spools faster while, yes, costing so much less. I can't do sh!t. I suck. I have a small pen is. But still the hx40 in bolton volute has done better than any other turbo out there ever for the dsm platform. . .so lets get back on topic.

BTW, in case you have no experience with it, a .63 a/r t3 ford housing has a much larger critical area than a .55 a/r bep housing. . . 1 psi could equate to 20hp or more. Sure or it could equate to less. It could equate to a different amount per psi for an et difference. Or driver skill could as well. Bottem line is that the hx40 in the bolton volute has net more than any other turbo out there ever for the dsm platform. And about 100hp more than the op's goal.

 

[1fastlaser]

I honestly think there will never be a answer to the subject. It gets beat to death.

Anyway you look at it, car A: can never be compared to car B:

Even if the setup is close, small factor will always make something different. The only way to really see KINDA what can be done is to change sat a hx40 bolt on to a bolt on scm61 or something that is completly in the same class, and same turbine housing that everyone is ranting about. Even still, the flow efficency will always changed, and 90 percent of the guys running bolt on turbos never get further then 22psi and think there car needs something bigger.

Then the other factors, drive, weather, even if say the intake works on one turbo, but dosent work on the other as well. If the tune gets changed, then you cant compare it at all, and the test is voided. Hours and hours with each turbo will have to be spent on the dyno to extract as much as you can from each turbo, then see what each tune can do at the track. Then you gotta get close to the same 60 foot, not have any problems, and weather difference becomes a factor.

I personally think the how much it cost to go fast is whatever. Its fun to try different things, and everyone is always gonna be like "I payed 300 dollars, and can beat a car with a 1000 dollar turbo". But there is so many factors that can be asked, and not every car is gonna be tuned to the T running 55psi on race gas so who gives a flying you know what. Its about trying different shit.

Its about having fun, and building some junkbox thats just gonna break anyway