hx40 vs sc6262?

[diambo4life]

So basically reading into your argument, and applying it to other real world situations, when people post dyno sheets of different power gains from switching cams from BC to kelfords or what ever brand X, HP differences in different intake manifolds, comparing different data from dynos is completely invalid data and shops and other users should stop posting this data because it's completely invalid and doesn't mean dick?

You completely missed my point. There's a big difference when AMS tests 10 different camshaft profiles (or intake manifolds) on the same car, same dyno, same running conditions and when 10 different people test the same individual camshafts/manifolds on 10 different dynos across the country and compare results. The first test is good, the second is useless from an analytical perspctive. Yes, car shops will hate reading this because they want to sell you something and that is their pitch. I don't care about them. I'd prefer the average DSM guy knowing what they were getting instead.

Shops should stop using slogans like "Dyno proven for XXXHP" because its all a lie because a dyno is not a valid tool for gathering data. I feel that if you try to argue that point in other places your going to find a lot of people that are not going to agree with you at all.

Yes, it is a gimmick. They should not say that. However, if they tell you what it dyno'd and tell you what it ran at the track at that exact specific power and weight (hard to verify & most lie anyway) the dyno numbers may be useful for someone else. Otherwise, absolute dyno number references are useless for comparing to other cars across the country.

I forgot to add. If you guys vociferously defending these HX-crap paper-weights (ok-maybe that was a little harsh and cruel ) put half as much effort in making your HX-powered tortoises fast, people would take you more seriously. You know...for once, show me an HX40 car that goes 145 or even 150mph (like numerous 35R and 62/86 cars have), I will shut up AND APOLOGIZE. Till you guys do that, the turbo is not touching PTE/Garrett stuff performance wise. Alot of hype, little on the delivery side.

Carry on....

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

I forgot to add. If you guys vociferously defending these HX-crap paper-weights (ok-maybe that was a little harsh and cruel ) put half as much effort in making your HX-powered tortoises fast, people would take you more seriously. You know...for once, show me an HX40 car that goes 145 or even 150mph (like numerous 35R and 62/86 cars have), I will shut up AND APOLOGIZE. Till you guys do that, the turbo is not touching PTE/Garrett stuff performance wise. Alot of hype, little on the delivery side.

Carry on....

Mike,
Most of this thread has turned into a pissing match. The Holset defenders are basically stating that bang for the buck, it's hard to beat their turbos. It's kinda hard to refute them either. The PTE/Garrett stuff is more proven, and have gone faster at the track, but also carry a much heftier price tag. If DSM'ers could buy a used Garrett turbo that has been proven OVER and OVER and OVER to last well over 100k+ miles, and buy em for less than $400, they would be all over it like stink on shit. Unfortunately, Garrett stuff ain't cheap. We all know this. Everyone is always looking for the next best thing, for next to nothing.

This is as close as we are gonna get to it....for now. I've run FP/Garrett turbos since I've been in the game (FPGreen/FP3065/PTE DBBT67), and I chose a Holset for my budget build. Why? ### it cost me $200 shipped for a freshly rebuilt turbo with no miles on it, and will flow similarly like a 50 trim will. Throw a T3 manifold and gate on the car for another $300, and my turbo setup cost me $500. Can't buy a single bolt-on 50 trim turbo for anywhere near that new. Sure, you can buy some junk Mutt turbo or something from PTE that may or may not shit the bed within a short period of time. If you want something new that's gonna last, you are gonna spend upwards of $700, JUST for the turbo.

The entire Holset vs. everyone else argument is based on power vs cost factor. No other turbo choices out there can remotely come close to beating out the Holset in THIS dept. In pure power and spool categories, are there better options....sure. You gonna be able to buy a used one of these units for a few hundred bucks and know that they can withstand 200k miles of 35-50psi boost levels? Not likely. It's a matter of preference. My goal of 700whp on my track whore might or might not get achieved by the T67. If not, I looked into a Holset in doing so. As of right now, nobody has done anything in that power range with a Holset, so I may look elsewhere. With everything in the automotive industry, it's performance vs. cost. Depends on which is more important to you.

 

[diambo4life]

Mike, I see where you are coming from. However, some of these guys have blind loyalty and state that Holsets are better....period! That is my beef. I have nothing personally against HX turbos if you deep down look at my postings. If I could get the same or better performance out of a HX-turbo than my PTE junk while spending a 1/5 or 1/4th of the price, why wouldn't I do it? I'm not delusional. Yes, the FP turbos and what not are more expensive but they continue to sell. If people could get the same performance with a cheaply priced product, FP would have run out of business 5 years ago. I guess the HX guys should also blame themselves for not going out there and proving skeptics like me wrong. Raise the bar! I'm not a Holset hater, I'm a skeptic meaning there is room for persuasion. The persuasion in this case is stellar track timeslips. I'm ambivalent to specious dyno claims...always have and consequently don't value them much. Don't tell me what it can do (I really HATE that!) show me what it has done.

PS: I love the Borg Warner S362 and S366 turbos so I'm not exactly a Garrett/PTE nut swinger. Mike you know this from our YIM convos we have had since I even recommended the BW362 to you. Why? I have seen impressive results from it, period.

 

[dsm-onster]

doin what they do best.. Bench racing.

As diablo stated before you can't alway rely on dyno numbers..."dyno proven doesn't mean anything because everyone doesn't have the same exact setup bolt for bolt and tuner.

I'd prefer the average DSM guy knowing what they were getting instead. . . .

. . . absolute dyno number references are useless for comparing to other cars across the country.

Don't tell me what it can do (I really HATE that!) show me what it has done.

This is the real crap in this thread. . .Sorry, Diambo4life to have to put your post in this list, or you Jimmy. . . But no one saying an hx40 is more than enough for the OP's goal showed dyno results that weren't backed by irrefutable track MPH. There's no bench racing, dyno racing, etc. It's proven MPH/weight results that clearly show an hx40 is plenty for the OPs goal. Why is this the trend in this thread: "hello, I like pte. I won't read the information in this thread." Why argue for a pte by saying that an hx40 isn't proven for the op's goal? Come on now, let's get past 'the hx40 isn't proven to meet the OPs goal' thing and get to the real discussion. Are there some scared to admit that because they know where the discussion will go?

 

[1fastlaser]

Id like to see some 9 second slips from a DSM on a hx40 without juice, that will get people talking. Even some deep 10 second slips. So far the hx52 powered evo 3 from across the pond is the only one that supositly ran 10.0@141 or whatever which is ok, but not crazy. I cant talk much because I went 10.9@134 on a 4294 but on 25psi pump gas so far last year. But on 30psi pump, I hope to eclipse the 140 mph traps, and run around what the hx52 ran, but on 93 pump, not e85.

Most of the issue is no shops run them, so the DIY dsmer is bolting shit up, most of which have never been into the 11s, and plan on running 22-25psi on 750 and pump gas . If someone with a setup car (like me) that knows how to tune, and can literally put on say, a hx40 or 52 tomorrow, tune it, and go to the track we will acually get some results. Ofcourse every car is gonna be different, but seeing some logs, and track times will help.

I was gonna run a hx52 when I was putting together my new setup, but considering I got a gt4294 for 400 dollars Brand new from Detroit I couldnt beat it.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well, +600whp cars (proven to output +600whp with mph/weight) have net low 10s. To date, the quickest hx40 car weighs 3300lbs. The next quickest weighs 3600lbs. So yes, "Most of the issue is no shops run them" and that people running these things want a full weight street car. But that still doesn't mean the trap speed and weight do not prove +600whp results of which the OP is seeking.

 

[DSM_PWR]

Wow this thread is still going on? WTF

 

[diambo4life]

Hey, I'm in the market for another turbo... I cannot decide what turbo to go to, and my thought processes keep going in circles. My mods are up to date in my profile. I am looking to make 600whp now, hopefully more in the future. I am also trying to figure out if I want to go ts t4, ts t3, regular 4bolt t3 or stick with my fp manifold... HELP!!!

EDIT 1* I drive my car around 16k miles a summer and will be taking it to the track almost every weekend...
EDIT 2* I RUN E85 ALL DAY EVERY DAY DURING THE SUMMER!

This is exactly what the OP posted above.

This is the real crap in this thread. . .Sorry, Diambo4life to have to put your post in this list, or you Jimmy. . . But no one saying an hx40 is more than enough for the OP's goal showed dyno results that weren't backed by irrefutable track MPH. There's no bench racing, dyno racing, etc. It's proven MPH/weight results that clearly show an hx40 is plenty for the OPs goal. Why is this the trend in this thread: "hello, I like pte. I won't read the information in this thread." Why argue for a pte by saying that an hx40 isn't proven for the op's goal? Come on now, let's get past 'the hx40 isn't proven to meet the OPs goal' thing and get to the real discussion. Are there some scared to admit that because they know where the discussion will go?

The 6262 will OUT-PERFORM the HX40 in terms of power with the requirements enumerated above. It will make MORE power. The subject of this thread is a comparison between two turbos. The original poster did not say he wanted a maximum of 600whp. I can read and comprehend English perfectly well. If he had said so, I would have recommended none of the turbos he listed. I responded to what was being asked. He wants to make more power than 600whp if he can help it. No other qualifiers were added. ADVANTAGE 6262.


Secondly, I did not say there wasn't any proof of the HX40 making power. I said there was no proof of the HX40 out-performing 6262/GT35R setups like stated by numerous HX-nutswingers ie. PTE turbo bashers. My posts have context. Don't pick out a sentence out of it and retort to it without understanding the premise underneath.

 

[dsm-onster]

Good, so for reiteration, the dyno results of the hx40 making 685whp is backed by a 626whp trapspeed for given weight at 4psi lower boost.

Looks like the hx40 makes plenty more than 600whp. Not as much as a gt35r has made on the high end setups. But costs far less to bolton. So the question is which advantage do you want? The both make well over the goal of the OP. Does he want a turbo capable of 150whp over his goal and pay one price, or one capable of 100whp over his goal and pay another price. Afterall there is another qualifier, the fp manifold.

When one says they want 600whp hopefully more, I'm not thinking they are wanting 150-200whp more. If that were they case they would have said '700whp hopefully more'. Considering how much faster the hx40 spools, this is a similar discussion to 'which is better for a 380whp hopefully more goal, the evo3 16g or the td06h 20g'. One has done alot more but costs alot more. The other has done quite a bit more but not as much as the other, yet costs half and is even more street friendly.

For the record, I never said an hx40 will outperform the 6262 or gt35r EVER.

 

[diambo4life]

So why are we arguing about things the other person didn't say? I never said you personally said that HX40>6262. This was in another thread a few months ago where several people said this. Regardless, the onus here is on the OP to lay down exactly what guidelines he wants (ie. cost, spool, max power etc) for his new turbo and he can be given the most concise recommendation. Only then can there be no food fights.

I personally like knowing the max HP someone's looking for and how much they are looking to spend. OP never laid this down so a lot of interpretation and squabblng results with people filling in the pieces. Generally with turbos, the bigger it is, the laggier it will be (not always) so those are usually good parameters to start with.

 

[dsm-onster]

I'm trying to keep on topic! In fact, if you review my previous posts I kept saying he didn't ask which outputs more. It's about which turbos fit his goal plus more. And then going from there, what are the advantages of each. I didn't bring into the discussion what some person said months ago in another thread that's not relevent to the discussion.

OK so the smoke has cleared and we're back at the begining . . . What does the 6262 have over the hx40 and what does the hx40 have over the 6262. Both 'make 600whp and more'.

I'll get the discussion the OP is looking for re-started: The hx40 will be far more affordable to install. He already has an FP exhaust manifold. Well actually if he wants even more potential than what the bolton volute hx40 has done he can still go to a t3 setup with the hx40 and still spend a whole lot less. He can try for his goal with the bolton housing and sell it and his fp manifold later and go t3. The demand for the bolton hx40 housing or fp manifold isn't going to diminsh any time soon.

 

[doesitonall4rs]

I also think a lot of people are missing the point entirely. Everyone one on this forum has a DSM or is into them. Why? Cheap/fast. With most peoples cars costing ~3000 dollars tops, How does it make sense to put a 1500 dollar turbo set up on a car that you might have bought for 3000? Not to mention, you spend 200-300 dollars on a holset, run it for a season or 2. you decide to sell it. If the turbo is still in good shape, you will get 200-300 dollars for it.

Now you buy a Brand new garret/pte/fp/etc. Run it for a season or two, Turbo can still be in perfect condition, I'm positive that you will only get 1/2 as much as you paid for that turbo. Not to mention even if you buy a used garret who knows how much abuse that turbo has seen, it's definitely been raced, there is no knowing how much more life is left on the turbo. You go on Cumminsforums and pick up a holset that you know came off a truck that has been used to drive around and haul shit, not to mention you are garanteed that the turbo still has another 50,000 miles left in her if not more. Or goldfarb and are garanteed that your turbo came off a bus or whatever that was not used for racing. And with how fast these cars break and fall apart last thing I want to do is worry if my turbo is gonna pop on me 1000miles after I bought it, then transmission or motor or any other DSM thing after another 100 miles. When I bought a holset it wasn't for how much power they make or can make, it was for reliability and a peace of mind, and price. If I turned around today and sold the turbo on my car, the turbo set up would have cost me nothing and I have driven it for 3 years now.

Let not forget the basics here kids, The reasons we have DSMs is cause the bottom line is we are CHEAP. If we had a shit ton of money we would not be ####ing around with these shitty cars, wed be driving supras/vettes/rx-7s/(take your pic of a fast car)

 

[dsm-onster]

^^^^Ok so your contribution to the 6262 vs. hx40 debate is the reliability . . .in addition to the cost. . .

. . .I have to say PTE reliablility is worth sh!t.

 

[doesitonall4rs]

^^^^Ok so your contribution to the 6262 vs. hx40 debate is the reliability . . .in addition to the cost. . .

. . .I have to say PTE reliablility is worth sh!t.

I think reliability/cost is one of the most important aspects to the "average DSM enthusiast" (Ill go out on a limb here and say 90% of this forum) For a shop car it doesn't matter it, A shop car might see 20 miles of driving a year. Maybe 40 if you include dyno tuning sessions and driving on and off the trailor. Not to mention cost to a shop doesn't mean anything because they have sponsors and an almost endless cash supply. Compared to the average DSM owner.

Cost: I mean lets just say for instance a holset doesn't make as much power as a comparable garret turbo. But the money you save you can easily invest in a 2.4 and a race head (ok maybe you won't THAT much money but you get the idea). Cost, reliability, and a turbo that lets just say make 40HP as a comparable garret.

Reliability: Money that you will save on rebuilds every lets say 20,000miles tops on a hard driven garret. You get the idea, practicality.

Honestly both of those factors are important to 90% of the people on this forum that is why they have DSMs.

 

[dsm-onster]

Maybe that's why the fastest holset setups have full weight cars. They have to live outside the shop with their car.

I mean it's not like PTE is kudos for reliability

 

[DSM_PWR]

Cheap DSMers ...

 

[dsm-onster]

DSMers who buy something for a brand name instead of for reliability and results that match their goal . . .

A DSMer is cheap if he buys a turbo that nets his goal and lasts hundreds of thousands of miles? Vs. PTE which lasts how long? Guess you're not cheap if you buy turbo after turbo after turbo to maintain a certain level of performance while being too dimwitted to maybe change brands. . . Too bad your idiocy continues to pepper this thread.

Come on. What does PTE offer the original poster that Holset doesn't. . . What have you got to say DSM_PWR, other than "I paid more money than you"? End the trolling and watching the thread like we all know you have and burp up something more than "inter-culture" hate.

So anyway. . .

So far, the hx40 still nets significantly more than the OPs goal, costs significantly less than his other option and has a better track record for reliability than his other option. If you question that the PTE is not reliable. . . You have REALLY been in the dark especially as of late. When it comes to garrett frame reliability, FP FTW!

 

[DSM_PWR]

Eh.... i call em like i see em ...

Most Holset users ive met/seen/read about are always cheaping out on stuff and cutting corners on their builds..

Which is probably why you rarely see Holsets actually achieve there 600whp goals ..

But anyways, i keep seeing the same excuses and same quotes back-to-back with zero results other than "Reliability" "Diesel Miles" "Budget" blah blah blah..

Im waiting on Sean aka slippi to finish his car with the HX52 to i can finally read about a Holset in the 9s

 

[dsm-onster]

"Rarely"? "Zero results"? Foot is going in deeper; watch out there. A very high percentage of hx40 users see over 600whp backed by mph/weight from the 1/4 mile. . . The OP's goal. . . I posted 5. And there's at least two more based on MPH/weight results in the holset results thread.

Whatever corners you may feel they have cut, they still net 600+ whp and at or more than the OPs goal. But then again, "hello, I like PTE. I won't read any information in this thread".

Gladto see you bark the same old sh!t you started with which escalated this thread into a pissing match . . . It's not working this time. These other guys know that the PTE 6262 has made more power. and they have accepted that the bolton hx40 has made more power than what the OP is looking for. It's now down to what advantages either frame has to offer to the op to make him sway one way or the other.

So far after the sh!tfest, I've said its far more affordable. . . And another has said it's far more reliable. . . and you've said it's not proven to meet the OP's goal and there's a low percentage of users whove net the OP's goal (which BTW is rather contradictory. . . Maybe the contradiction or issue is in yourself. Afterall, you did "lay in wait" to stir up shit in this thread. . .As we all clearly see.

 

[DSM_PWR]

.....And there's atleast two more based on MPH/weight results in the holset results thread....

Here we go again..

But then again what do i know... you are a "Wiseman" after all.... whatever thats worth


Ive got more interest in Holsets than people think, true i never done the research on them but thats why im lurking around see'in if someone will post up something impressive

 

[dsm-onster]

Here we go again..

YAP! here we go again with proof. That you can't accept. Do you want dyno backed by mph/weight? or do you want mph/weight that can't be corrupted. See the definition of kenetic energy. Do you think it is really worth it to look like a fool contradicting MPH/weight numbers?

I'm sure you DO have interest in holsets. You seam to think they fail even the laws of physics and don't really produce the results proven by trapspeed

 

[JusMX141]

A DSMer is cheap if he buys a turbo that nets his goal and lasts hundreds of thousands of miles? Vs. PTE which lasts how long?

That's what I don't understand about the whole debate. If turbo brand "X" makes 68 lb/min and nets 685whp, and turbo brand "Y" makes maybe 70 lb/min and nets just over 700whp but costs three times as much because 35 shops are running that turbo successfully on their race cars (even though they'd NEVER tell the general public if one blew for no reason), which would you spend your money on as a consumer?

Bottom line- if PTE came to any one of us tomorrow and gave us a 6262 to use, what do you think would be bolted to my manifold this season?

I'm not doubting a 6262 one bit....I'm sure it's a fine piece- I'm simply saying that given the numerous journal-bearing PTE's that I've seen in my shop during the past 7 years which failed for no reason at all, there's no way in HELL I'd spend almost $1000 on one until they've proven themselves a durable, reliable product by someone other than a shop that has ten more in the trailer if something goes wrong.


A Holset is proven reliable for hundreds of thousands of miles at high boost on their OEM applications- they just need to be bolted to a car with an owner who has some financial backing to make it a complete package and put down the numbers that shops have no trouble making with a 6262. Of course that's something we're not seeing yet because most people don't want to fool with finding the turbo, finding the housing, and putting the whole package together...they'd rather buy something that is ready to go right out of the box no matter what the cost. It's sad, really.

Most Holset users ive met/seen/read about are always cheaping out on stuff and cutting corners on their builds..

That's just it...we need to find someone who already has a 6262 or HTA3586 and is willing to give the Holset a whirl (no pun intended) so we can get some back-to-back numbers and put an end to the debate.

 

[DSM_PWR]

Lets see...

The 6262 has been seen into the high 9's in the 4g63 Platform...

Wheres the HX40 that did that? Or at least show me a low 10 with a nice 140mph

EDIT:
Ive personally never had a turbo blow (knock on wood)... I pushed my last turbo pte50trim (which was a second hand turbo) 30psi and daily drove it just fine before my motor blew so cant say anything bad about it..

I understand that turbo's can break, its part of racing and its something that can go wrong just like any other part ona car...

 

[dsm-onster]

Again. The op asked to discuss turbos that have net +600whp. . . What is your point? The hx40 is proven by trap/weight to net WELL over 600whp. . . What does the 6262 offer over the hx40 to a consumer who wants 600-650whp? the ability to make 700whp? Why can't you stay on topic?

AMEN Justin! One glory run by a PTE that blows up in the subsequent week is worth HOW MUCH? . . . Turbos fail in racing and so do motors. But who doesn't want their motor to last through the run and not embarrace them with a lot of smake and no MPH at the end of a track run? Somethign a PTE has been known to do on more than several occasions.

 

[DSM_PWR]

eh just stiring up the pot