Winter 07/08 Projects and Plans?

[talonTSIDriver]

Greg did run stock rears, but just because it worked doesn't mean it wouldn't work better with a different setup.

Well before I would start throwing money at the rear brakes, I will try the stock stuff and see how it holds up. how about some rear brake coolers, maybe using some of those 135cfm blower things too or something to keep the rear brakes cool. any ideas?

Otherwise, stock evo VIII/IX rear brembo's will bolt right up.

 

[housegsx]

What's wrong with the powerstop 11.5" rear brake kit? I know the rotor isn't vented, but they certainly seem better than stock. They've treated me well so far but I don't have any big track days on them yet.

 

[mavisky]

I was more concerned about getting them to do more work and keeping the balance better. I doubt mine will do enough now to even begin to get hot.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

I was more concerned about getting them to do more work and keeping the balance better. I doubt mine will do enough now to even begin to get hot.

Well, you can make the rear brakes work harder (Adjustable Brake Proportioning Valve), but my guess is they would overheat and your rear brakes will begin to fade. So by adding cooling to the rear's, with a good set of pads you may be able to get away with leaving the rear's stock. You could also try to find a set of early 95 vented rotors.

 

[tsiboosted]

Greg did run stock rears, but just because it worked doesn't mean it wouldn't work better with a different setup.

No I understand that Kyle. But better than a full blown race car like Greg had ?? I understand what you are trying to say and I agree man.

Well before I would start throwing money at the rear brakes, I will try the stock stuff and see how it holds up. how about some rear brake coolers, maybe using some of those 135cfm blower things too or something to keep the rear brakes cool. any ideas?

Otherwise, stock evo VIII/IX rear brembo's will bolt right up.

I use the VIP Garage Centric Slotted rotors in the rear with Hawk HPS pads and have never had an issue.

I was more concerned about getting them to do more work and keeping the balance better. I doubt mine will do enough now to even begin to get hot.

If you are more concerned with the balance of the brakes, instead of trying to get a "better" setup as a rotor/pad combo. Maybe try a brake bias setup with a proportioning valve like this one.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Allows easy adjustment of front to rear brake bias. Works on all race cars. 100 to 1500 psi range, up to 57% pressure reduction. It uses 1/8" NPT fittings.

Compensates for weight transfer to the front wheels during braking. All factory brake systems allow for this in some fashion. An APV allows you to "fine tune" a street or race brake system (which normally uses components from a variety of sources) and thus prevents severe rear brake lockup under moderate-to-heavy braking. THis may be something you might want to try as well Kyle.

I am going to be going to s a setup similar to this once I get all the engine work done.

p.s. - HaHaHaHa....Looks like I was too slow trying to find a picture of the brake bias control. But like Andy said, if you do this, you may also want to come up with some sort of ducting system to the rear brakes as well as the front brakes to hender fading as much as you can. But with my experience on other race cars using a brake bias setup, they did not experience fading at all. That was noticably different to "normal" fading I mean in a race car.

Also, with hardly any weight in the rear of our cars (gutted ones anyway) the rear brakes are not under a sevre load to begin with. I have only changed my rear pads once all season. And I actually could use them again if there was an emergency of some sort. But more cooling back there especially if you dial more bias to the rear would never hurt anything.

 

[housegsx]

Then they should work for the 2g guys. I don't think they make a kit for the 1g. I thought TCE used to do rear upgrades for the DSMs too.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Then they should work for the 2g guys. I don't think they make a kit for the 1g. I thought TCE used to do rear upgrades for the DSMs too.

they do make a kit for the rears. But i dont know if its worth another grand for upgraded rear brakes.

 

[tsiboosted]

Didnt know if you saw the edited version of my post Andy.

No I understand that Kyle. But better than a full blown race car like Greg had ?? I understand what you are trying to say and I agree man.



I use the VIP Garage Centric Slotted rotors in the rear with Hawk HPS pads and have never had an issue.



If you are more concerned with the balance of the brakes, instead of trying to get a "better" setup as a rotor/pad combo. Maybe try a brake bias setup with a proportioning valve like this one.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Allows easy adjustment of front to rear brake bias. Works on all race cars. 100 to 1500 psi range, up to 57% pressure reduction. It uses 1/8" NPT fittings.

Compensates for weight transfer to the front wheels during braking. All factory brake systems allow for this in some fashion. An APV allows you to "fine tune" a street or race brake system (which normally uses components from a variety of sources) and thus prevents severe rear brake lockup under moderate-to-heavy braking. THis may be something you might want to try as well Kyle.

I am going to be going to s a setup similar to this once I get all the engine work done.

p.s. - HaHaHaHa....Looks like I was too slow trying to find a picture of the brake bias control. But like Andy said, if you do this, you may also want to come up with some sort of ducting system to the rear brakes as well as the front brakes to hender fading as much as you can. But with my experience on other race cars using a brake bias setup, they did not experience fading at all. That was noticably different to "normal" fading I mean in a race car.

Also, with hardly any weight in the rear of our cars (gutted ones anyway) the rear brakes are not under a sevre load to begin with. I have only changed my rear pads once all season. And I actually could use them again if there was an emergency of some sort. But more cooling back there especially if you dial more bias to the rear would never hurt anything.

 

[housegsx]

How would you set it up with that proportioning valve? Would you run two of them between each side front and rear? You would obviously have to run new lines and eliminate the factory proportioning valve, correct...

 

[tsiboosted]

How would you set it up with that proportioning valve? Would you run two of them between each side front and rear? You would obviously have to run new lines and eliminate the factory proportioning valve, correct...

I am not 100%. Thats why I pay my mechanic You do eliminate the factory one though I would think. To the best of my knowledge and experience, you only use 1 valve. My dads race car only has one in his. And all the other cars I have seen only used the one. So again, I am not 100% sure.

 

[housegsx]

Yes, you can only turn down the pressure with those valves, not up. So I would assume you need to bypass the original valving.

 

[snowborder714]

Here's a link that talks about different setups.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/road-course-autocross/258970-pad-knockback.html

In post 51, there's 2 different setups. Eric's looking into trying to find someone that makes (or could make) a dual APV, but it doesn't seem like it's out there. So he's also looking into running 2 APV's so he could keep the diagonal setup as shown in the first image.

 

[tsiboosted]

Here's a link that talks about different setups.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/road-course-autocross/258970-pad-knockback.html

In post 51, there's 2 different setups. Eric's looking into trying to find someone that makes (or could make) a dual APV, but it doesn't seem like it's out there. So he's also looking into running 2 APV's so he could keep the diagonal setup as shown in the first image.

Yeah, I read those posts. Looks as though it can be done. I was only concerned really with balancing a little between the front and rear. Currently, I am having no issues with brakes. Will change with the more power I will be putting down. But then, new brake setup will not be far behind that. Just adding to the topic is all.

 

[Slow old poop]

I have only changed my rear pads once all season. And I actually could use them again if there was an emergency of some sort. But more cooling back there especially if you dial more bias to the rear would never hurt anything.

I ran stock rear brakes and a super aggressive Carbotech pad. The rears never got hot and never wore down all season. If I had kept the car (like I said somewhere above) I was going to put a proportioning valve in to get more work out of the rears. Unless you do that, big rotors, Evo calipers, aggressive pads and cooling won't do diddly, because the rears don't contribute much.

Someone said they are running Powerslops on the rears. That's probably the only application where it is safe to run those crappy rotors, because they don't have to do anything. Whatever you do, don't put them on the front. I broke (as in BROKE IN HALF!!) two Powerslops on my 3000GT, and that gets plumb scary when it happens. Underradar explained about the ABS system on 3000GTs: if it wasn't for that (and long grassy runoffs) I woulda been in big trouble both times I broke 'em. Stay away from Powerslops.

 

[tsiboosted]

I ran stock rear brakes and a super aggressive Carbotech pad. The rears never got hot and never wore down all season. If I had kept the car (like I said somewhere above) I was going to put a proportioning valve in to get more work out of the rears. Unless you do that, big rotors, Evo calipers, aggressive pads and cooling won't do diddly, because the rears don't contribute much.

Someone said they are running Powerslops on the rears. That's probably the only application where it is safe to run those crappy rotors, because they don't have to do anything. Whatever you do, don't put them on the front. I broke (as in BROKE IN HALF!!) two Powerslops on my 3000GT, and that gets plumb scary when it happens. Underradar explained about the ABS system on 3000GTs: if it wasn't for that (and long grassy runoffs) I woulda been in big trouble both times I broke 'em. Stay away from Powerslops.

You are very correct Rich. That is what I was saying earlier in the thread as well. My rear brakes hardly do any work. I try not to use the brakes as much as possible anyway.

I had heard about the PowerSLots before and stayed awy from them for the same reasons you stated above.

I have had no issues with the VIP Garage setup I run now and have all season. And I said before, I run the Hawk HPS pads in the rear and they get the job (little job) done. Marti and the guys there at VIP always hook me up when I need new stuff. Good guys and good equipment.

 

[housegsx]

Someone said they are running Powerslops on the rears. That's probably the only application where it is safe to run those crappy rotors, because they don't have to do anything. Whatever you do, don't put them on the front. I broke (as in BROKE IN HALF!!) two Powerslops on my 3000GT, and that gets plumb scary when it happens. Underradar explained about the ABS system on 3000GTs: if it wasn't for that (and long grassy runoffs) I woulda been in big trouble both times I broke 'em. Stay away from Powerslops.

I remember you telling me that a while back, but hopefully they do just fine on the rear. I originally bought them at the same time they bought out AEMs brake division and got a nice "surprise". I thought I was getting the AEM rear kit with a nice 2 piece rotor setup. Anyway, they've been holding up fine for me for what I use them for. Hopefully the powerslops are ok out back.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Well when all this stupid white crap goes away, I will be hitting up my local speedway to do some testing on the car (They allows a few of use to use the track for practise/testing before the stock car guys have their practise session). I will try to do some scientific testing rather than using the butt dyno style of testing.

 

[Slow old poop]

I try not to use the brakes as much as possible anyway.

My kind of driver! Just one big bang on the brakes before the corner, turn in, and nail the gas! Who needs brakes?

Actually, the better you get, the less you need brakes. Watch the pros, and you won't see brake lights on for more than just a flash. Some of the guys on this forum can run stock fronts because they know how to use them. The Archer Brothers car (I think) runs stock fronts.

Maybe I will get to that point some day. Racing is a constant learning experience.

Probably requires professional instruction, though. And an awful lot of confidence that, when you wait until the last microsecond to brake, the brakes will be there when you smash that pedal. Pad knockback adds uncertainty to that little equation.

In fact, of all the brake mods being discussed here. the most important one (IMHO) is getting rid of pad knockback.

 

[cioc]

Has everyone read this?

StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades

You cannot dial in more rear pressure, unless you install the valve backwards and dial out more front. I'm leaving mine alone.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

My kind of driver! Just one big bang on the brakes before the corner, turn in, and nail the gas! Who needs brakes?

Actually, the better you get, the less you need brakes. Watch the pros, and you won't see brake lights on for more than just a flash. Some of the guys on this forum can run stock fronts because they know how to use them. The Archer Brothers car (I think) runs stock fronts.

Maybe I will get to that point some day. Racing is a constant learning experience.

Probably requires professional instruction, though. And an awful lot of confidence that, when you wait until the last microsecond to brake, the brakes will be there when you smash that pedal. Pad knockback adds uncertainty to that little equation.

In fact, of all the brake mods being discussed here. the most important one (IMHO) is getting rid of pad knockback.

I have not had a huge problem with pad knockback yet. However you can get some spacers for the pads which is suppose to reduce the amount the pad gets "knocked back"

as for braking, Brake LATE and HARD. Once you get a really good feel for your car, you want to brake going into the apex and slowly let off as your also on the gas. The idea is to stay right on the edge of the traction circle.

 

[tsiboosted]

My kind of driver! Just one big bang on the brakes before the corner, turn in, and nail the gas! Who needs brakes?

Actually, the better you get, the less you need brakes. Watch the pros, and you won't see brake lights on for more than just a flash. Some of the guys on this forum can run stock fronts because they know how to use them. The Archer Brothers car (I think) runs stock fronts.

Maybe I will get to that point some day. Racing is a constant learning experience.

Probably requires professional instruction, though. And an awful lot of confidence that, when you wait until the last microsecond to brake, the brakes will be there when you smash that pedal. Pad knockback adds uncertainty to that little equation.

In fact, of all the brake mods being discussed here. the most important one (IMHO) is getting rid of pad knockback.

Well thank you Rich. Brakes just slow you down anyway dont they? Its all about knowing your can do and what you can do as a driver. When we have open sessions, I do a drill with myself for the first say 10 or so minutes of the session where I will not use the brakes at all. Then slowly go faster and faster through out the session. Obviously you have to hit the brakes at places the faster you go. But you come to a realization that you dont need them as much as you think you do. Still, they are nice to have when you do "need" them

 

[Slow old poop]

I have not had a huge problem with pad knockback yet. However you can get some spacers for the pads which is suppose to reduce the amount the pad gets "knocked back".

Knockback occurs when the rotor moves left-right under hard cornering, and pushes the caliper pistons away from the rotor. When you hit the brakes, the pedal goes to the floor because the pistons first have to move up to make contact with the rotor. Under severe pad knockback, it can take 4-5 pumps to get pedal pressure. Knockback occurs with stock brakes and with Stoptechs or Wilwoods, because it has nothing to do with the rotors and calipers. It's all about flex in the front suspension.

My solutions are:

o Install residual pressure valves. They keep 2-3 psi on the pistons, keeping them from moving back

o Carry spacers, like you say. There's little or no knockback with new pads. When they wear down, they leave room for the rotor to flex. So carry some spacers to insert as the pads wear.

o Tighten the front wheel bearings as much as possible. This reduces "play"

o Replace the front hubs with new. The hubs wear out over time, and allow movement.

I hadn't done it yet, but I was going to install poly front bushings. Anything to remove flex from the front suspension. Just to show you how much the front suspension can deform under hard cornering, here's a photo of my Eclipse at Iowa Speedway, under max g-forces--we're running at about 125 mph on the high banking, and the Hoosiers are just a-howling. The wheel started out at -5 deg camber, but in this photo you can see that it is standing straight up. All that is from suspension flex:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachments/road-course-autocross/78595d1198140576-pad-

If that doesn't work, go to

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/road-course-autocross/258970-pad-knockback.html
Go to post 32

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Yes I recall that photo. That’s crazy that you were running -5 degrees of static camber in the picture. I like the idea of new wheel hubs. I like knowing my car has new parts and the chance of something failing is minimal. Also with these cars being 10 years old and 100k miles, its not a bad idea to start replacing many parts.

 

[tsiboosted]

I like the idea of new wheel hubs. I like knowing my car has new parts and the chance of something failing is minimal. Also with these cars being 10 years old and 100k miles, its not a bad idea to start replacing many parts.

My thoughts exactly Andy.

 

[Slow old poop]

Brakes just slow you down anyway dont they?

I can't believe you said that. Groan!

That's almost as bad as, "Coasting? There's no coasting in racing!" (Tom Hanks in "A League of Their Own." Well, sort of)

How about, "Brakes? We don't need no steeenking brakes!" (From "Tres Amigos")