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Tune for creep? 16g problems.

Posted by 93RS, Sep 21, 2019

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  1. 93RS

    93RS Proven Member

    139
    1
    Joined Oct 3, 2011
    Brandon, South Dakota
    My Talon is my 12th Dsm but the first time ive done anymore then bolt ons to. Its a refreshed stock 6 bolt, with a polished crank, sidedressed rods, eagle pistons, P/P head, FP manifold, megan 3" turbo back, FP intake pipe, and a new 16g from cxracing. The only thing left stock exhaust wise is the o2 housing, which i assume is adding to my creep. I have my wastegate adjusted so its partially open all the time (been closing it little by little). I have it set so i see 10 psi by 4k(normal for big 16g?), by 5k im at 16+ psi, im not ready for it fuel wise and thats as high as im supposed to rev it for another couple hundred miles. Im running strictly on WG no MBC installed because i want all the bugs worked out before i boost over 14psi and neither of my MBCs stop boost from building well beyond 14 psi. What can i do to make this turbo hold steady boost? I was thinking external wastegate, but im not trying to drop $500 on a o2 EWG set up before a $700 fuel system upgrade. My ultimate goal is a 4-450 whp daily. Im planning on running e85 , with a 255 pump, afpr, 1200 FICs, 25ish psi. Am i chasing my tail trying to keep boost low now? Is my stock o2 housing really the only cause? Will it hinder my hp goal? Do i just forget about low boost and start tuning for my creep on pump gas? Do i sh**can my stock o2 housing and go cheap tubular? Can i modify my stock o2 for EWG? Whats the cheapest, easiest solution for creep? And one last, out in left field for my future knowledge question, will linkv3 eliminate fuel cut? Is that something i have to tune out, or do the air tables go out beyond the stock ecu?
    Sorry for the long 19 part question, but this forum has always pointed me in the right direction. Thanks in advance!
     

    Attached Files:

    Street Build 148  8

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    779  12

    1992 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo
    202 whp · 216.5 lb/ft · 1G DSM
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  2. 93RS

    93RS Proven Member

    139
    1
    Joined Oct 3, 2011
    Brandon, South Dakota
    Not that it matters, but *JE 85.5 mm 9.0-1 pistons* was gonna go with eagle rods but my engine builder said id be good sidedressing the stock rods.
     

    Street Build 148  8

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    779  12

    1992 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo
    202 whp · 216.5 lb/ft · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  3. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

    3,419
    1,311
    Joined Nov 1, 2008
    London, Europe
    Im going to get flamed for this as alot disagree with me! They have their own opinion on solving it but mine is the best and cheapest way going!
    * The main issue is the turbine housing is bad for flow coming out of the port. It needs a good amount of work to help divery and open it up better for flow.

    but everytime someone has a 3" turbo back exhaust it causes creep, you cannot tune for it unless you have a fuel sysyem that can keep up with the creep and use it but then it likely wont be their all the time so its hard to account for it 100%!

    Going to a 2.5" DP will help because it helps with flow from the turbo out so while it does have an effect its minimal if negligeable to even think about.

    If you want to spend more which you said you dont then you need to get an EWG but even then its been said before to have not fully worked!

    My 16G is modified / hybrid and ported on the outlet side and currently running a 12psi spring at gate pressure, 2.5" DP and 3" back no cat or res and I have no issues with spikes or creep but if I went 3" DP i think I would because the 16G turbines are just bad And alot of porting does not always work but it hugely helps and thats why an EWG does not fully solve the issue as its still lack of flow in that direction from the tubine housing design.
     

    Road Race Build 8K  10  50

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    175 whp · 180.1 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  4. EVLGSX

    EVLGSX Proven Member

    412
    157
    Joined Dec 7, 2017
    Wallingford, Connecticut
    just get the fuel system sorted out and get ECLlink going....... then tune it man.

    everything else you suggested could help but is not absolutely necessary.

    consider porting the internal wastegates passage in the turbine housing, it can help if done correctly.

    Creep isnt necessarily a bad thing if you can tune for it, it can actually be a good thing if you can figure it out. I know ive had my fun with it.

    on 93 pump gas you can get away with an approximate 30psi spike settling at around 22psi. makes for a fun street car on a 16g with internal WG
     

    Street Build 2K  15

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  5. ThunderChild

    ThunderChild Supporting VIP

    2,541
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    Joined Jan 5, 2012
    Rathdrum, Idaho
    Port the snot out of that gate. I don't remember how big exactly we did my buddies big16g, but after porting we had no issues, i got it pretty far out there. I wanna say ~23-24mm but it's been a bit.

    No reason not to have the biggest wg hole possible for a given setup, unless you're buying external and don't need it flow-wise.
     

    Street Build 235  3

    1990 Plymouth Laser N/T
    fwd · manual · 1G DSM

    324  8

    1987 Toyota Pickup/Hilux
    awd · manual · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 875  7

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder GST
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

    Street Build 1K  1

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM

    Street Build 2K  10

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  6. EVLGSX

    EVLGSX Proven Member

    412
    157
    Joined Dec 7, 2017
    Wallingford, Connecticut

    Street Build 2K  15

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
    Loading...
  7. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

    2,711
    1,286
    Joined Dec 2, 2002
    Houston, Texas
    The real question is, who cares about boost creep when you’re in e85? That cx racing turbo probably won’t last long at that boost. The walbro 255 may not be enough on e85 and 4-450hp. Grab the walbro 450. I also had good results with the cheap tubular eBay o2 housings for $50. You just need to make sure the flanges are flat.
     

    Street Build 3K  10

    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  8. EVLGSX

    EVLGSX Proven Member

    412
    157
    Joined Dec 7, 2017
    Wallingford, Connecticut
    oh yeah that too. replace that china turbo with a real MHI as soon as you can
     

    Street Build 2K  15

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
    Loading...
  9. 93RS

    93RS Proven Member

    139
    1
    Joined Oct 3, 2011
    Brandon, South Dakota
    Im pretty sure im gonna go with the EWG recirculated o2 housing from Punishment racing. That seems like a solid solution for the coat. The china turbo is only on because my 14b blew its seals. Im set on the FP68hta for my final turbo. While im changing the o2 housing i will port the wastegate hole and tack the flapper all the way open. Im not going push the china turbo, that was to get the bird back on the road. This car tries my patients and my wallet every given opportunity. Thanks for the input guys!
     

    Attached Files:

    Street Build 148  8

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    779  12

    1992 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo
    202 whp · 216.5 lb/ft · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  10. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

    2,711
    1,286
    Joined Dec 2, 2002
    Houston, Texas
    I wouldn't suggest using your resources on the external setup. Joe Bucci recently went 10's on his IWG hta68. Curt Brown set the 16g record with 500hp on an internal gate. If you're going to e85, who cares about low boost?
     

    Street Build 3K  10

    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  11. curt-s

    curt-s Proven Member

    762
    215
    Joined Dec 21, 2008
    Winterville, MB, Canada
    10psi by 4k is definitely NOT right. you should be reaching 20psi before 3300 on a higher than 7.8:1 compression engine. 450whp is more than a b16g, especially one from cxracing, so your ultimate goal will include a turbo swap.
     

    Street Build 2K  1

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · manual · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  12. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

    2,711
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    Joined Dec 2, 2002
    Houston, Texas
    For some reason, he has intentionally opened to the waste gate flapper to be open at all times.
     

    Street Build 3K  10

    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  13. tk106

    tk106 Supporting Member

    1,603
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    Joined Sep 11, 2017
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    As Vegas said, you want your wg shut until it reaches desired boost. If you can adjust your wg, preload it so it stays shut. A few mills past fully closed is how I set mine
     

    144  3

    2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Classic
    awd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    152  4

    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
    fwd · manual · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 2K  6

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    12.625 @ 111.42 · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  14. tk106

    tk106 Supporting Member

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    Joined Sep 11, 2017
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Everyone has a valid point
     

    144  3

    2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Classic
    awd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    152  4

    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
    fwd · manual · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 2K  6

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    12.625 @ 111.42 · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  15. curt-s

    curt-s Proven Member

    762
    215
    Joined Dec 21, 2008
    Winterville, MB, Canada
    oh yes, i see in the first post that it was partially opened all the time.. somehow i missed that line. I blame it on watching married with children at the same time as reading the post. the hta should do well, though i would have rebuilt or picked up another 14b to tie me over rather than a cxracing snail.. but there seems to be some sort of plan
    ..exits stage left.
     

    Street Build 2K  1

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · manual · 1G DSM
    Loading...
    Vegas smith likes this.
  16. tk106

    tk106 Supporting Member

    1,603
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    Cincinnati, Ohio
     

    144  3

    2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Classic
    awd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    152  4

    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
    fwd · manual · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 2K  6

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    12.625 @ 111.42 · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  17. 93RS

    93RS Proven Member

    139
    1
    Joined Oct 3, 2011
    Brandon, South Dakota
    I adjusted my WG slightly open because the flapper only opens 1/2" tops, so boost just kept coming. I was unaware you weren't supposed to run below a certain boost level. I adjusted my WG all the way closed with a little preload. I guess its time to start saving.
     

    Street Build 148  8

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    779  12

    1992 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo
    202 whp · 216.5 lb/ft · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  18. Bleakley

    Bleakley Proven Member

    234
    50
    Joined Jan 29, 2017
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    I’m gonna piggy back on what ec17pse said a little bit.
    Creep on the 16G is strictly an issue with getting that fluid (those gases) to change direction. I thought the external o2 was going to be the end all be all for me —> It was not.
    What actually worked, believe this or not. Was having a catalytic converter. I have an Apexi downpipe and when I was open downpipe with springs for 13? Psi, that f***ing turbo kept going up, no matter what.
    I had a number of issues boosting before I fixed a lot of things on the car, (like one time it was hard for me to hit 6-7psi) but anyways, when thinking about how to help with creep, one thing I kept questioning was a flow restriction could cause backpressure which would force the exhaust gases to flow out the hole in the side of the turbine —> Bingo. No creep issues at all.
    I don'tcurrently run one. I just bolted it up to see.

    I confirmed what a LOT of people have already said / found out on their own. You have to REALLY port a path to the wastegate. There’s a picture floating around I’ll dig up representing good and bad wastegate mounting locations. Our setup is poor because it is like a 90* angle. I holesawed the wastegate port to ~1.0625”-1.125” (can’t remember which one I used) and also ported a bit of a path. I think it helped a little bit. If I get a full exhaust on the car I think I'll be okay, but something tells me she’ll still creep a little bit.

    You have to be really careful (in my honest opinion) porting the EVO III turbine housing. I’ve ruined one going hog wild with the porting. The housing is already fairly thin in certain sections. If you port too thin that section is highly likely to crack.

    I truly think the best thing to do when running E316G, is to have the fuel system and tune in place to handle the creep. I think it’s like ~325whp or something at ~22-23psi... That isn’t too much for the car to handle (with fuel system and tune) by any means.


    Edit —> I think the 255 can break 400whp, but a 400-450whp goal is better left to a 450 or 525 pump. No sense in really pushing the 255 when either of those pumps will achieve that a) without breaking a sweat and b) without hurting your wallet that much.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019

    Street Build 744  1

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · automatic · 2G DSM
    Loading...
    93RS likes this.
  19. jdub099

    jdub099 Supporting VIP

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    Joined Sep 2, 2019
    Denver, Colorado
    As pointed out on Facebook, there are two pictures that make it appear as though the nipple on the turbo elbow is connected to the valve cover breather port. Is this the case? Inquiring minds want to know.
     
    ec17pse likes this.
  20. 93RS

    93RS Proven Member

    139
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    Joined Oct 3, 2011
    Brandon, South Dakota
    Yes the turbo nipple is connected to the VC. This is why: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/the-4g63t-pcv-system.366890/
     

    Street Build 148  8

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    779  12

    1992 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo
    202 whp · 216.5 lb/ft · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  21. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

    2,711
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    Joined Dec 2, 2002
    Houston, Texas
    Hmm, I don't think you should be running that setup. What you're doing is pressurizing the engine with the line hooked up to the turbo outlet. I think you wanted to hook that line up to the turbo intake, not turbo outlet.
     

    Street Build 3K  10

    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
    Loading...
    93RS likes this.
  22. tk106

    tk106 Supporting Member

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    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Good eye fellas!
     

    144  3

    2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Classic
    awd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    152  4

    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
    fwd · manual · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 2K  6

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    12.625 @ 111.42 · 1G DSM
    Loading...
    93RS likes this.
  23. 93RS

    93RS Proven Member

    139
    1
    Joined Oct 3, 2011
    Brandon, South Dakota
    Yea.... i didnt think that through, like at all apparently:idontknow: i took it off LOL. The nipple that i believe it was supposed to go to on my intake is clamped closed... on my other Dsms that line on the VC was either capped or had a breather. So should i just tee that line into another vaccum line?
     

    Street Build 148  8

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    779  12

    1992 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo
    202 whp · 216.5 lb/ft · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  24. tk106

    tk106 Supporting Member

    1,603
    410
    Joined Sep 11, 2017
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    You want the vent hose on the side of the vc routed to preturbo, intake. The nipple on your charge pipe should go to boost controller or wg if you’re running spring pressure.
     

    144  3

    2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Classic
    awd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    152  4

    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
    fwd · manual · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 2K  6

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    12.625 @ 111.42 · 1G DSM
    Loading...
    93RS likes this.
  25. jdub099

    jdub099 Supporting VIP

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    Joined Sep 2, 2019
    Denver, Colorado
    LOL
     

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