Tune for creep? 16g problems.

[93RS]

My Talon is my 12th Dsm but the first time ive done anymore then bolt ons to. Its a refreshed stock 6 bolt, with a polished crank, sidedressed rods, eagle pistons, P/P head, FP manifold, megan 3" turbo back, FP intake pipe, and a new 16g from cxracing. The only thing left stock exhaust wise is the o2 housing, which i assume is adding to my creep. I have my wastegate adjusted so its partially open all the time (been closing it little by little). I have it set so i see 10 psi by 4k(normal for big 16g?), by 5k im at 16+ psi, im not ready for it fuel wise and thats as high as im supposed to rev it for another couple hundred miles. Im running strictly on WG no MBC installed because i want all the bugs worked out before i boost over 14psi and neither of my MBCs stop boost from building well beyond 14 psi. What can i do to make this turbo hold steady boost? I was thinking external wastegate, but im not trying to drop $500 on a o2 EWG set up before a $700 fuel system upgrade. My ultimate goal is a 4-450 whp daily. Im planning on running e85 , with a 255 pump, afpr, 1200 FICs, 25ish psi. Am i chasing my tail trying to keep boost low now? Is my stock o2 housing really the only cause? Will it hinder my hp goal? Do i just forget about low boost and start tuning for my creep on pump gas? Do i shitcan my stock o2 housing and go cheap tubular? Can i modify my stock o2 for EWG? Whats the cheapest, easiest solution for creep? And one last, out in left field for my future knowledge question, will linkv3 eliminate fuel cut? Is that something i have to tune out, or do the air tables go out beyond the stock ecu?
Sorry for the long 19 part question, but this forum has always pointed me in the right direction. Thanks in advance!

 

[93RS]

Not that it matters, but *JE 85.5 mm 9.0-1 pistons* was gonna go with eagle rods but my engine builder said id be good sidedressing the stock rods.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Im going to get flamed for this as alot disagree with me! They have their own opinion on solving it but mine is the best and cheapest way going!
* The main issue is the turbine housing is bad for flow coming out of the port. It needs a good amount of work to help divery and open it up better for flow.

but everytime someone has a 3" turbo back exhaust it causes creep, you cannot tune for it unless you have a fuel sysyem that can keep up with the creep and use it but then it likely wont be their all the time so its hard to account for it 100%!

Going to a 2.5" DP will help because it helps with flow from the turbo out so while it does have an effect its minimal if negligeable to even think about.

If you want to spend more which you said you dont then you need to get an EWG but even then its been said before to have not fully worked!

My 16G is modified / hybrid and ported on the outlet side and currently running a 12psi spring at gate pressure, 2.5" DP and 3" back no cat or res and I have no issues with spikes or creep but if I went 3" DP i think I would because the 16G turbines are just bad And alot of porting does not always work but it hugely helps and thats why an EWG does not fully solve the issue as its still lack of flow in that direction from the tubine housing design.

 

[EVLGSX]

just get the fuel system sorted out and get ECLlink going....... then tune it man.

everything else you suggested could help but is not absolutely necessary.

consider porting the internal wastegates passage in the turbine housing, it can help if done correctly.

Creep isnt necessarily a bad thing if you can tune for it, it can actually be a good thing if you can figure it out. I know ive had my fun with it.

on 93 pump gas you can get away with an approximate 30psi spike settling at around 22psi. makes for a fun street car on a 16g with internal WG

 

[ThunderChild]

Port the snot out of that gate. I don't remember how big exactly we did my buddies big16g, but after porting we had no issues, i got it pretty far out there. I wanna say ~23-24mm but it's been a bit.

No reason not to have the biggest wg hole possible for a given setup, unless you're buying external and don't need it flow-wise.

 

[EVLGSX]

just remembered this. should be helpful:

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/porting-exhaust-housing-for-an-evoiii-16g.515296/#post-153673479

 

[Vegas Smith]

The real question is, who cares about boost creep when you’re in e85? That cx racing turbo probably won’t last long at that boost. The walbro 255 may not be enough on e85 and 4-450hp. Grab the walbro 450. I also had good results with the cheap tubular eBay o2 housings for $50. You just need to make sure the flanges are flat.

 

[EVLGSX]

oh yeah that too. replace that china turbo with a real MHI as soon as you can

 

[93RS]

Im pretty sure im gonna go with the EWG recirculated o2 housing from Punishment racing. That seems like a solid solution for the coat. The china turbo is only on because my 14b blew its seals. Im set on the FP68hta for my final turbo. While im changing the o2 housing i will port the wastegate hole and tack the flapper all the way open. Im not going push the china turbo, that was to get the bird back on the road. This car tries my patients and my wallet every given opportunity. Thanks for the input guys!

 

[Vegas Smith]

I wouldn't suggest using your resources on the external setup. Joe Bucci recently went 10's on his IWG hta68. Curt Brown set the 16g record with 500hp on an internal gate. If you're going to e85, who cares about low boost?

 

[curt-s]

10psi by 4k is definitely NOT right. you should be reaching 20psi before 3300 on a higher than 7.8:1 compression engine. 450whp is more than a b16g, especially one from cxracing, so your ultimate goal will include a turbo swap.

 

[Vegas Smith]

10psi by 4k is definitely NOT right. you should be reaching 20psi before 3300 on a higher than 7.8:1 compression engine. 450whp is more than a b16g, especially one from cxracing, so your ultimate goal will include a turbo swap.

For some reason, he has intentionally opened to the waste gate flapper to be open at all times.

 

[AWD-Tony]

As Vegas said, you want your wg shut until it reaches desired boost. If you can adjust your wg, preload it so it stays shut. A few mills past fully closed is how I set mine

 

[AWD-Tony]

Everyone has a valid point

 

[curt-s]

For some reason, he has intentionally opened to the waste gate flapper to be open at all times.

oh yes, i see in the first post that it was partially opened all the time.. somehow i missed that line. I blame it on watching married with children at the same time as reading the post. the hta should do well, though i would have rebuilt or picked up another 14b to tie me over rather than a cxracing snail.. but there seems to be some sort of plan
..exits stage left.

 

[AWD-Tony]

My Talon is my 12th Dsm but the first time ive done anymore then bolt ons to. Its a refreshed stock 6 bolt, with a polished crank, sidedressed rods, eagle pistons, P/P head, FP manifold, megan 3" turbo back, FP intake pipe, and a new 16g from cxracing. The only thing left stock exhaust wise is the o2 housing, which i assume is adding to my creep. I have my wastegate adjusted so its partially open all the time (been closing it little by little). I have it set so i see 10 psi by 4k(normal for big 16g?), by 5k im at 16+ psi, im not ready for it fuel wise and thats as high as im supposed to rev it for another couple hundred miles. Im running strictly on WG no MBC installed because i want all the bugs worked out before i boost over 14psi and neither of my MBCs stop boost from building well beyond 14 psi. What can i do to make this turbo hold steady boost? I was thinking external wastegate, but im not trying to drop $500 on a o2 EWG set up before a $700 fuel system upgrade. My ultimate goal is a 4-450 whp daily. Im planning on running e85 , with a 255 pump, afpr, 1200 FICs, 25ish psi. Am i chasing my tail trying to keep boost low now? Is my stock o2 housing really the only cause?

Most likely

Will it hinder my hp goal? Do i just forget about low boost and start tuning for my creep on pump gas? Do i sh**can my stock o2 housing and go cheap tubular?

No on cheap manifold.

Can i modify my stock o2 for EWG?

You can change to open dump but I’ll be loud when you get in boost

Whats the cheapest, easiest solution for creep?

Open dump O2

And one last, out in left field for my future knowledge question, will linkv3 eliminate fuel cut?

Get link

Is that something i have to tune out, or do the air tables go out beyond the stock ecu?

You can’t tune without something to tune with

Sorry for the long 19 part question, but this forum has always pointed me in the right direction.

You’re right!

Thanks in advance!

 

[93RS]

I adjusted my WG slightly open because the flapper only opens 1/2" tops, so boost just kept coming. I was unaware you weren't supposed to run below a certain boost level. I adjusted my WG all the way closed with a little preload. I guess its time to start saving.

 

[Bleakley]

Im going to get flamed for this as alot disagree with me! They have their own opinion on solving it but mine is the best and cheapest way going!
* The main issue is the turbine housing is bad for flow coming out of the port. It needs a good amount of work to help divery and open it up better for flow.

but everytime someone has a 3" turbo back exhaust it causes creep, you cannot tune for it unless you have a fuel sysyem that can keep up with the creep and use it but then it likely wont be their all the time so its hard to account for it 100%!

Going to a 2.5" DP will help because it helps with flow from the turbo out so while it does have an effect its minimal if negligeable to even think about.

If you want to spend more which you said you dont then you need to get an EWG but even then its been said before to have not fully worked!

My 16G is modified / hybrid and ported on the outlet side and currently running a 12psi spring at gate pressure, 2.5" DP and 3" back no cat or res and I have no issues with spikes or creep but if I went 3" DP i think I would because the 16G turbines are just bad And alot of porting does not always work but it hugely helps and thats why an EWG does not fully solve the issue as its still lack of flow in that direction from the tubine housing design.

I’m gonna piggy back on what ec17pse said a little bit.
Creep on the 16G is strictly an issue with getting that fluid (those gases) to change direction. I thought the external o2 was going to be the end all be all for me —> It was not.
What actually worked, believe this or not. Was having a catalytic converter. I have an Apexi downpipe and when I was open downpipe with springs for 13? Psi, that f***ing turbo kept going up, no matter what.
I had a number of issues boosting before I fixed a lot of things on the car, (like one time it was hard for me to hit 6-7psi) but anyways, when thinking about how to help with creep, one thing I kept questioning was a flow restriction could cause backpressure which would force the exhaust gases to flow out the hole in the side of the turbine —> Bingo. No creep issues at all.
I don'tcurrently run one. I just bolted it up to see.

I confirmed what a LOT of people have already said / found out on their own. You have to REALLY port a path to the wastegate. There’s a picture floating around I’ll dig up representing good and bad wastegate mounting locations. Our setup is poor because it is like a 90* angle. I holesawed the wastegate port to ~1.0625”-1.125” (can’t remember which one I used) and also ported a bit of a path. I think it helped a little bit. If I get a full exhaust on the car I think I'll be okay, but something tells me she’ll still creep a little bit.

You have to be really careful (in my honest opinion) porting the EVO III turbine housing. I’ve ruined one going hog wild with the porting. The housing is already fairly thin in certain sections. If you port too thin that section is highly likely to crack.

I truly think the best thing to do when running E316G, is to have the fuel system and tune in place to handle the creep. I think it’s like ~325whp or something at ~22-23psi... That isn’t too much for the car to handle (with fuel system and tune) by any means.


Edit —> I think the 255 can break 400whp, but a 400-450whp goal is better left to a 450 or 525 pump. No sense in really pushing the 255 when either of those pumps will achieve that a) without breaking a sweat and b) without hurting your wallet that much.

 

[jdub099]

As pointed out on Facebook, there are two pictures that make it appear as though the nipple on the turbo elbow is connected to the valve cover breather port. Is this the case? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[93RS]

As pointed out on Facebook, there are two pictures that make it appear as though the nipple on the turbo elbow is connected to the valve cover breather port. Is this the case? Inquiring minds want to know.

Yes the turbo nipple is connected to the VC. This is why: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/the-4g63t-pcv-system.366890/

 

[Vegas Smith]

Yes the turbo nipple is connected to the VC. This is why: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/the-4g63t-pcv-system.366890/

Hmm, I don't think you should be running that setup. What you're doing is pressurizing the engine with the line hooked up to the turbo outlet. I think you wanted to hook that line up to the turbo intake, not turbo outlet.

 

[AWD-Tony]

Good eye fellas!

 

[93RS]

Yea.... i didnt think that through, like at all apparently i took it off . The nipple that i believe it was supposed to go to on my intake is clamped closed... on my other Dsms that line on the VC was either capped or had a breather. So should i just tee that line into another vaccum line?

 

[AWD-Tony]

You want the vent hose on the side of the vc routed to preturbo, intake. The nipple on your charge pipe should go to boost controller or wg if you’re running spring pressure.

 

[jdub099]