Evo3 16g Boost Creep-Solved?

[Apeximprt2nr]

Ah, well I just tested 9 psi off my MBC and it does creep back up to 15 psi by redline. Though it's creeping it is much better than it was (up to 21 at some points). I will try to solve it by loosening up the rod one rotation tomorrow morning and iwll let you know how it goes.

 

[Mr Peepers]

Disconnect the rod completely and run it to 7k and see if it creeps at all. If it still does, then it's the WG passage itself, not the travel of the flapper. Porting would only help, see post #41 and 42 in this thread. As you said, yours is unported.

 

[dsm-onster]

Don't be down hearted . Who runs their 16g at 9 psi?

The fact that it holds a relatively low boost (15 psi) solid, means that it works quite well. And considering he's spent zero time porting and can hold 15 psi fine, but many others spending a weekend porting still have a hard time at the same boost level, I think you ahve a good thing here.

I'll post my results when I get it in the mail.

Hopefully he'll play w/ the adjustability a bit. That could very well solve this particular instance.

 

[Mr Peepers]

I'm still happy with the results from just slapping it on without any adjustments. Set at 15 psi he said creep was "non-existent" which was VERY good to hear

What probably needs to be done is to set more preload(tighten the arm) as the boost is raised, and vice versa. More preload is required to hold a higher psi, and the full range is required if you want to run really low boost. Again, find a happy medium, that's why it's adjustable. Every car/setup is different. From my understanding after talking with him on the phone, the opposite was done. More testing will tell the story, and certainly after getting a baseline with the arm disconnected to see if he just has a freakish creepish turbine housing to begin with.

 

[dsm-onster]

Alright guys. A little update. No runs yet . But, I have to piece in my hand. It is really nice work. The grill paint is an excellent idea! It looks very clean. The adjustability is very broad it seams: I suppose I could hold the wastegate completely shut if I wanted too, or run 4-5 psi if I wanted to. Of course, tomorrow will tell.

My wideband o2 sensor is crapping out. I'm using the lm-1 to simulate narrow band. So don't expect a log containing this. Of course, I will switch to "open loop only" in dsmlink. And I don't think any one cares about my closed loop operation anyhow.

I'll have to use my power inverter and my home PC to log the runs too, because my laptop screen connections to the base are broken . But don't worry. I'll get a log up. I'll also take a run w/ the actuator disconnected. I'll have to stretch this over a couple of days.

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

I'll have to use my power inverter and my home PC to log the runs too, because my laptop screen connections to the base are broken .

. If I had to use a PC instead of a laptop that would turn into a disaster for me, haha. Good luck.

Bill

 

[dsm-onster]

I just want to drop a quick preliminary. It seams to hold 17ish psi to redline w/ no problem. This is great considering I was having creap at this level. It has solved my problem right now, so I'm totally satisfied . After a minor spike issue, I tweeked the actuator tension and w/ the mbc, wala! 17 psi to 7500 rpms. That's all I had time for today. I had to use the truck for most of the day, so I didn't have time to fiddle w/ it.

Of course the real test will be whether I can hold 9 or so psi to redline. . .

I have the monitor "braced" in the passenger seat and the tower in the rear passenger side floorboard . I'll try for some logs tomorrow.

I think my wideband is working fine now. I forgot to tighten it when I swapped back to the small 16g. . .

 

[dsm-onster]

No creep at 15 psi. No creep (w/ no manual boost controller) at 12 psi. I set it for what I thought was 9ish psi. But by 6500rpms it was sitting at 11 psi. I ran w/ the actuator disconnected and I can build boost very late (around 5500 rpms) to 1 psi on 2 pulls and 2 psi on 2 other pulls.

In all, it definately cured my creep enough for me. I could run stock injectors, fuel pump, and maf at 9-11 psi .

Logging w/ my home pc wasn't the way I planned it. The power inverter was overloaded. I need to buy another inverter or suck it up and get another used laptop. Eitherway, I don't have a gm 3bar map sensor, so there's no way for dsmlink to log actual boost for me until I get that. Nevertheless, the above numbers should be enough for everyone for now.

This is w/ a:
1. small 16g completely unported
2. evo3 exhaust manifold
3. 2.5" exhaust for the first 2-3 inches of the downpipe w/ a smooth transition to 3" before the first bend and all the way to the 3" resonator/muffler, and then a 3" resonator tip and no cat.
4. fp2X cams
5. ebay fmic and short route piping
7. stock, hacked maf

 

[Mr Peepers]

First time I've been on in a while and definitely a good thing to see!

Thanks again for the testing, and I'm very glad it worked out well.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

you know dsm-onster, you could send one my way....about an hour from you...

 

[Mr Peepers]

you know dsm-onster, you could send one my way....about an hour from you...

^ Too bad he only has one

If you sent me a WGA I could do the same thing I did to his, but since it's tested it won't be free anymore.

If anyone else wants it done, shoot me a PM. I'd be glad to figure something out

 

[dsm-onster]

Matt, I've tested it again and it's creeping only 1 psi all the way down to 5 psi! I'm very impressed. This is so worth not having to bury your carbide bit into the iron for hours and hours! Your price you discussed was very reasonable. . . You know what I thought about that .

BTW, I used grill paint on my exhaust manifold cover and it works great!

 

[Mr Peepers]

Great to hear 5 psi is ridiculously low, I like it

As for anyone interested in it, I've decided on $50 if you want it done. You will have to pay for shipping and supply a working WGA to be modified as well. It will work/look identical to dsm-onster's. Sandblasted and grill paint.

Call my cell at (608)931-8777 and please leave a message or PM me if you are interested.

EDIT: For the time being, I am no longer offering this service. It takes ~5 hours to do one of them and I am debating stopping all together or upping the price... I will hopefully have a write up on the entire process once I get a chance.

-Matt

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

damn you onster... is a t25 actuator the same as a b16g actuator?

 

[Mr Peepers]

damn you onster... is a t25 actuator the same as a b16g actuator?

Nope, the t25 actuator is Garret and the b16g actuator is MHI. Different springs, rod length/style, bolt pattern, diaphragm size/style, and the Garret has a little more throw.

 

[Mr Peepers]

I finally did it. I finished the Write-up

I'm still in the process of editing it, but it can be found here:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...boost-creep-modified-wga-peepers-mod-how.html

Shoot me a PM with any comments/suggestions.

 

[JusMX141]

Awesome tech article- very desciptive!

Do you think it would be less time-consuming and easier to just do something like this, where you'd mount a Garrett actuator with longer throw to a Mitsu baseplate and make it adjustable:

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[Mr Peepers]

Awesome tech article- very desciptive!

Do you think it would be less time-consuming and easier to just do something like this, where you'd mount a Garrett actuator with longer throw to a Mitsu baseplate and make it adjustable:

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Thanks!

It DEFINITELY would be easier and less time consuming. If you have a Garret actuator with a longer throw it would be a better route to swap the baseplate and get it to connect to the flapper arm. I got a garret WGA from DSM-onster but can't remember what its throw was. More than a MHI one, but I don't believe it was 1" like most modified mitsu ones. Separating the mounting plate from the WGA body is a PITA though, which I'm sure you found out

Stock t25 WGA's have a longer throw but a weaker spring which I didn't like. Whatever one DSM-onster gave me had a stiffer spring and a larger diameter diaphragm, a much better choice.

Not everyone has a Garret WGA besides possibly a t25 one Great suggestion though!

I'll add that somewhere in the article if thats alright

 

[JusMX141]

That one I showed in the pic actually had two nipples on the top of the actuator, so I'm sure it was something that was stronger than a T25 actuator.....something like eBay item #300200488893.

That actuator in the pics I listed was on a 16G turbo I rebuilt a while ago for a customer. I got to keep it because he wanted the flapper removed to run an external gate off the o2 housing. I was very impressed how far the flapper opened when the proper tension was set by adjustment. Not sure who built it, but it impressed the hell outta me!

I'll have to install it on an EvoIII that I have lying around the shop to give an example of the flapper travel as well as the arm's total movement.

 

[RipperXX]

This will not fix everyone's creep issue. I know because I went with a external WG (38mm Tial) and even ported the stock waste gate passage a few mm and it still creeps a psi or two on cold nights. And to run external on the O2 housing like I did you have to remove the stock WG flapper.

And with my setup I can't boost any lower than 18psi, on a cold night 20ish. So I have to take it off and do more port work when I get back home from Iraq as I would like to run 16psi daily and 22 for high boost.

 

[Mr Peepers]

This will not fix everyone's creep issue. I know because I went with a external WG (38mm Tial) and even ported the stock waste gate passage a few mm and it still creeps a psi or two on cold nights. And to run external on the O2 housing like I did you have to remove the stock WG flapper.

And with my setup I can't boost any lower than 18psi, on a cold night 20ish. So I have to take it off and do more port work when I get back home from Iraq as I would like to run 16psi daily and 22 for high boost.

That is mentioned in this thread and also in the tech article. While offering this service, I outlined a test with the flapper disconnected to see how the WG passage flowed, and if a longer throw WGA will help. This test is outlined in the tech article.

 

[forcefed86]

Good info!

So what was the total travel of your modified DSM WGA?

I've got like 5 HD buick grand national WGA's laying around so I went ahead and modified my Grandnational actuator to the DSM base plate. Haven't tested it yet but it does have much stronger internal spring and a .65" throw. I think it will work well.

Heres a few pics.

Here is the buick adjustable HD WGA. Next to the DSM WGA.

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DSM base plate on GN WGA

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I know the welds aren't pretty! You could also use JBweld if you have no welder.

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Cut off adjustable rod end, welded to DSM actuator rod end.

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Finished.

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[forcefed86]

UPDATE:

Added additional springs. Also the amount of pressure can be adjusted by the two jam nuts on the shaft. Currently set as high as it will go. Want to try running it without the MBC and see where it's at. Bench test shows it start to crack at 17psi.

It's 14* outside and there's snow everywhere. Won't be able to get much testing done today.

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[dsm-onster]

Function over form .

 

[LiquidX]

Dunno what I think about the wastegate, but as long as it works right. I haven't reread the thread yet, but why all this work instead of just porting out the housing?