Evo3 16g Boost Creep-Solved?

[dsm-onster]

If the flapper doesn't open enough you could still get creep. Also porting takes tools and HOURS of work. This takes 1/4 of the time to make. And no air compressor required . . . Just a note: It may likely not work with the evo3 16g as well as the small 16g though.

 

[m_0ney_pit]

why not just decrease the length of the moment arm? it shouldn't be to hard to drill and tap a hole closer to the shaft of the flapper and then put a bolt through the same diameter of the pin thats already there.

 

[forcefed86]

Function over form .

Yea yea... I know it isn't pretty.

Dunno what I think about the wastegate, but as long as it works right. I haven't reread the thread yet, but why all this work instead of just porting out the housing?

Read first then post...

And for the record... the turbo, WG hole, and 02 housing are all ported. Still would spike to holy hell and bleed off boost in the upper rpms.

If the flapper doesn't open enough you could still get creep. Also porting takes tools and HOURS of work. This takes 1/4 of the time to make. And no air compressor required . . . Just a note: It may likely not work with the evo3 16g as well as the small 16g though.

Since installing the actuator with more travel and tighter internal spring, boost jumps to 25 and holds steady to 6k. Prior I would bury my 30lb gauge then drop to 22-23ish. If I try to turn the boost up anymore now I still get a 29-30lb spike, but it doesn't bury the gauge like it did. Then it slowly bleeds down in the upper rpms back to 25psi. I'm hoping this is just the point where the spring pressure was no longer tight enough to hold the flapper closed.

This may or may not make a difference. I was hoping for a sold 26-27psi. One way to find out!

why not just decrease the length of the moment arm? it shouldn't be to hard to drill and tap a hole closer to the shaft of the flapper and then put a bolt through the same diameter of the pin thats already there.

Wouldn't be hard at all if I had the turbo was off the car. I would do that as well if I ever took it off. Could also cut it off with a dremel and spot weld it back at a shorter length. But again.... no room. Another thing to consider is by shortening the arm the actuator will have to work harder to keep the flapper closed. U would need to up the pressure of the internal spring in some way.

 

[forcefed86]

No dice... I took some video but it's pretty uneventful.

3rd gear pull... boost jumps to 25, then settles down to 20-21 by 6k.

On a side not with my mbc totally out of the loop my WGA now activates at 20lbs. So the springs are doing there part.

Looks like its back to the drawing board.

It makes me nervous to wire the WG puck closed. I figure the initial spike will be pretty massive. Anyone know of a way to combat this? I think I may give it a shot. If that doesn't hold boost I've just reached my flow limit.

 

[JusMX141]

If you're trying to hold more boost to redline, you need something with a stronger spring internally....like a Holset actuator.

You're only able to roughly double an internal actuator's spring tension before it gives you issues. I don't see a Grand National's stock actuator having a very stiff spring.

You need to fab one of these:

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http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...oking-strong-internal-wastegate-actuator.html

 

[toofast82]

No dice... I took some video but it's pretty uneventful.

3rd gear pull... boost jumps to 25, then settles down to 20-21 by 6k.

On a side not with my mbc totally out of the loop my WGA now activates at 20lbs. So the springs are doing there part.

From your profile, it looks like you have 272s and some other stuff. Don't you think its possible that the compressor just can't keep up?
On my b16g, it would hold 23-4psi all day on my external 38mm, threw a set of cams(264/272) and it would drop off to about 20-21psi like you.

I've heard some guys running E8 ecus or something similar with pulse-width boost control, that they've been able to tune a 3port "blocking" solenoid to be able to hold more at redline.

 

[forcefed86]

If you're trying to hold more boost to redline, you need something with a stronger spring internally....like a Holset actuator.

You're only able to roughly double an internal actuator's spring tension before it gives you issues. I don't see a Grand National's stock actuator having a very stiff spring.

You need to fab one of these:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...oking-strong-internal-wastegate-actuator.html

The buick HD actuator has an 18psi internal spring. And the arm on the WG doesn't care if the spring pressure is internal or external? Pressure is pressure.

I seriously doubt that actuator has more cracking pressure than the one I made. But I suppose it is possible. If I ever come across one I'll test it.

From your profile, it looks like you have 272s and some other stuff. Don't you think its possible that the compressor just can't keep up?
On my b16g, it would hold 23-4psi all day on my external 38mm, threw a set of cams(264/272) and it would drop off to about 20-21psi like you.

I've heard some guys running E8 ecus or something similar with pulse-width boost control, that they've been able to tune a 3port "blocking" solenoid to be able to hold more at redline.

Yes, this could be the case. Like I said above I may have just reached the 16g’s flow limit. I also have a pretty large FMIC that’s sucking up a lot of volume.

Problem is I keep hearing stories of people running 30+lbs on ported e316g’s with cams etc. Makes me think there might be a little more boost hiding in these things.

 

[JusMX141]

I seriously doubt that actuator has more cracking pressure than the one I made. But I suppose it is possible. If I ever come across one I'll test it.

Keep in mind the more tension you apply to the actuator arm, the longer the delay will be before the actuator opens. If you have 3/4" of spring preload yanking on the arm, it's going to take a second before the diaphragm can fill with enough volume to actually move the arm. This delay results in a boost spike.

Dropping boost toward redline can be the reponsibility of the flow of the turbo itself, but it can also be the fault of an actuator that doesn't have enough spring tension to pull the flapper shut again once it opens.

A proper-functioning internal wastegate system will open the flapper fully at the pressure where the peak boost level is reached, then slowly begin to close to almost 1/8" as the RPMs climb in order to divert more airflow back into the turbine housing instead of around it. When your wastegate actuator spring is too soft, the actuator cannot overcome the air pressure escaping the housing, so the flapper remains 100% open and the boost level will begin to bleed off as all of the airflow continues to be diverted around the housing.

This issue gets even more complicated with all of the available turbine housing porting options and wastegate puck sizes. A larger 34mm flapper will not only divert more airflow around the turbine housing when open, but it will also be more difficult for any actuator to hold shut under full boost because of the larger surface area. Think of it as walking outside in a windstorm and opening an umbrella, then opening a parachute and see which one you can hold in place the longest. Because of these variables, what works for one guy may not work for another.

You're either dealing with compressor efficiency issues (doubtful, as the Evo III has been proven to hold 28-30psi to redline on certain applications with properly-sprung external wastegates), or a wastegate actuator that cannot pull the flapper back shut once it's opened.

 

[dsm-onster]

Most of these setups probably have a trend of using a better exhaust manifold and a likely a better intake manifold. The better VE gives more energy to the turbine to spin the compressor harder (even though at a point you see boost being lost becasue the compressor jsut can't keep up. Lucas English uses no intercooler. He said it helps keep boost up at the end of the rev range. Some fuels may provide more exhaust energy than others.

As well a proper exhaust manifold upgrade better "prepares" the pulsed fluid flow as it enters the turbine volute. When it's directed better into the housing (even symetrical helix before entering the volute), then you get more work out of the gases.

 

[forcefed86]

I'm running a FP Performance Mitsu Big 16G EVO 3 turbo and EVO 3 o2 housing. Both are ported by FP and coated in a high temp black coating. Exhaust manifold is a 2g unit ported by FP as well.

If I could just maintain 25psi to my 6500 redline I'd be happy.

Sure wish there was a way to see if my WGA was holding closed at WOT. Anyone got any ideas?

I suppose I could bit the bullet and go to a dyno and just watch it. I could probably buy a manifold and external gate for the cost of a dyno session though.

Maybe setup a video camera in the engine bay....

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[dsm-onster]

You'll just have to take the advice of those that have seen the internal gate blow open . They do often blow open. If you're looking to max out any turbo, I always recommend an external gate no matter what. Because you WILL have tremendously high back pressure and I don't know many internalg gate actuators that can control boost properly AND stay shut at exhaust pressures over 2times that of intake pressures.

 

[toofast82]

If I could just maintain 25psi to my 6500 redline I'd be happy.

I really just think the 16g compressor can't keep up the cams and engine airflow on your setup

 

[forcefed86]

You'll just have to take the advice of those that have seen the internal gate blow open . They do often blow open. If you're looking to max out any turbo, I always recommend an external gate no matter what. Because you WILL have tremendously high back pressure and I don't know many internalg gate actuators that can control boost properly AND stay shut at exhaust pressures over 2times that of intake pressures.

You keep crushing all my hopes and dreams man!
But honestly, I do appreciate all the input!

I'm to stubborn, and more importantly to cheap to give up.

I'll try to ziptie my digital camera to the fan schroud and go for a spin this weekend.

What about welding a pressure bung on the opposite side of the diaphram? Kinda like the external gates have.

 

[forcefed86]

Well the added 2 .75GPH pre injection nozzles helped a bit. Able to hold higher boost a bit longer. I think I'm maxed out....


http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/nit...361565-pre-turbo-setup-dual-75gph-250psi.html

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[turbo addict]

forcefed86 what do you have for an intake and exhaust? I would work on that and not mess with the wastegate doing this has helped me a ton with my e316g. Also where are you sourcing your wastegate signal from? To get rid of the spike you want it take it off of the turbo compressor housing or the outlet from the compressor housing before the intercooler and not the intake manifold

I can hold with the right setup around 40psi to 6300-6500rpm after that it goes down fast.(still in the 30psi range after7000rpm if memory serves. This is on my 2.0 4g63 with FRH intake manifold an FP2 cams I also have a FP exhaust manifold.

I think that your trying to make the wastegate do everything and not looking at the engine/turbo as a system.

 

[forcefed86]

forcefed86 what do you have for an intake and exhaust? I would work on that and not mess with the wastegate doing this has helped me a ton with my e316g. Also where are you sourcing your wastegate signal from? To get rid of the spike you want it take it off of the turbo compressor housing or the outlet from the compressor housing before the intercooler and not the intake manifold

I can hold with the right setup around 40psi to 6300-6500rpm after that it goes down fast.(still in the 30psi range after7000rpm if memory serves. This is on my 2.0 4g63 with FRH intake manifold an FP2 cams I also have a FP exhaust manifold.

I think that your trying to make the wastegate do everything and not looking at the engine/turbo as a system.

Wow, that is by far the largest numbers I've heard anyone claim. Esp with cams. What size intercooler do you run? Piping size? Got any video?

I pick up my WG signal right after the compressor outlet.

If you check out post 81 it states...

I'm running a FP Performance Mitsu Big 16G EVO 3 turbo and EVO 3 o2 housing. Both are ported by FP and coated in a high temp black coating. Exhaust manifold is a 2g unit ported by FP as well.

From the 02 housing back its a 2.5 mandrel buschur unit to a single dynomax 3" turbo style muffler.

The intake is the factory 2g unit with a 4" filter charger kit and vibrant filter.

Similar to this, but I ported mine a bit at the corners.

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Aside from getting a hard intake pipe I don't think there is much more I can do on flow in or out of the turbo.

 

[turbo addict]

Wow, that is by far the largest numbers I've heard anyone claim. Esp with cams. What size intercooler do you run? Piping size? Got any video?

I pick up my WG signal right after the compressor outlet.

If you check out post 81 it states...

From the 02 housing back its a 2.5 mandrel buschur unit to a single dynomax 3" turbo style muffler.

The intake is the factory 2g unit with a 4" filter charger kit and vibrant filter.

Similar to this, but I ported mine a bit at the corners.

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Aside from getting a hard intake pipe I don't think there is much more I can do on flow in or out of the turbo.

Well here is what I have and my experience. I have a 3" hard pipe with an evo8 mas.(this has helped boost) I also have a 12" k&n filter.

As for my intercooler piping I run a liquid-air intercooler that is in the engine bay and goes from the turbo outlet right to the intake manifold. most of the pipe is 2.5".

The exhaust I gained alot from. I have an old Hahn racecraft O2 eliminator that is 3" right off of the turbine housing and an external dumped wastegate port but still internal gate. This part is an integrated O2 and downpipe all one piece. this goes back to a 4" custom made exhaust.

With the 3" exhaust, 3" thermal muffler and 3"O2 eliminator I could only hold 35psi to 6500rpm. I then made a 4" without a muffler (still in the process of putting a muffler in that just wanted to make sure that the 4" was going to make a difference over the 3" before I spent the money on the 4" muffler) and I could hold 40psi not touching the boost controller just the dfference in the pipe.

I also personally ported all of my parts so that they would flow well together, everything is match ported and my turbo I ported so that it would induce boost creep as I knew that I was going to push the limits of the turbo (This is after I melted the first turbine housing). Basically port the turbo so that you cant see the wastegate flapper door or even the hole or the flapper this directs the exhaust through the turbine and away from the wastegate.

I am not doing anything special with my wastegate it is not even a e16g but a 14b/s16g actuator because I broke the nipple off of my e316g actuator. I do have 3 washers to shim it out and use a Hallman boost controller.

Getting air into the turbo and out of the turbo has made a HUGE difference in my car. I am looking into making a air scoop to push air into my filter I think that this and a new 8cm housing will get me to where I want to be with the e316g. I would like to be able to hold 40psi to 7800-8000 with the 4g63. I have had the scoop on before but the routing I never liked so If I can clean that up & with the 4" exhaust I think that will do it. (I only really need the extra boost in 4th and 5th gears as I'm fwd and you move alot of air when going over 120mph.)

Any more questions feel free to ask. PS your not that far away I may be in Kansas this summer for a visit.

 

[donniekak]

I didn't care much about the creep on my evo 3, i run e-85. I could not get it below about 25psi on my setup, i tuned for 30 and cranked up the mbc, problem solved. I fired up my car today with my brand new td05h 20g. It has what looks like a fp 7mm hotside, that has been ported almost beyond belief, and the flapper measured 34mm. It has been working fine up to about 23 psi. This weekend when i throw on the 1600's i'll see if i have issues blowing open the flapper. If so, i have a 20 psi holset actuator ready to go on. But, the larger flapper and porting have eliminated the creep.

 

[imdrax]

For some reason i CANNOT view the 4th page of this thread. Im wondering if there is any way a garrett actuator can be used and simply modify the arm length? such as these 2

Garrett Wastegate Actuator GT28R (GT2560R) 6-7 PSI NEW : eBay Motors (item 190377033113 end time Mar-31-10 09:40:48 PDT)


Wastegate Actuator 9 Psi Turbo Turbocharger TO4E : eBay Motors (item 200441636506 end time Mar-21-10 16:20:17 PDT)

 

[frankenstein406]

can't you just cut the stock arm and weld a pipe over and just use set skrews to adjust length?